Less word salad is better, but I wasn't after a finalised version yet, more of the discussion involved. BUT! it seems to be liked.

Faster-Than-Thou: When an enemy declares a ranged attack against a Desperado, the Desperado may spend a Fate Point and a Reaction to fire a single shot from a single Pistol weapon. The Desperado's attack resolves first, and may only be attempted with a Pistol in hand, or one that can normally be readied as a free action on his turn. The Desperado must be able to clearly see his shooter to make this attack.

Not the strongest bonus, no, but definitely interesting. (changed the wording as free actions can only be performed in a character turn, so had to maintain that status quo lest an optimiser exploit it.)

LordBlades - FACING! Ah I see now, sorry. Yeah there's no facing in this game (like most RPGs) only awareness of opponents. Yep. understood.

So now there are basically several alternatives to pick from. Faster-Than-Thou, Safeties off and Saint-of-killers (which needs significant adjustment) are my personal favourites.

Anyone got any ideas for adjusting Saint-of-Killers ? Perhaps... works the same as Frenzy, except a fate point rather than "one round of building up the frenzy" but adjusts different skills? Ballistic Skill? Agility? Perception? Reduces... Fellowship? willpower? Weapon skill? Can't be pinned?

There's now several choices for swapping out move-and-shoot. Success!

I am happy you guys like the Faster Than You, just needs the right paragraph to prevent shenanigans.

It was an excellent suggestion and looks really good as a rule! 'Dodge' by killing the shooter in one shot.

The wording in my last post looks good, with most thanks to Asymptomatic, but what are your thoughts, Godgolden? You mentioned shenanigans. what do you reckon to the phrasing, where is the trouble? The wording looks okay and pretty straightforward to me, but I'm not an optimiser, just a story-driven GM.

So, the other two I mentioned for kicks, Safeties Off and Saint-of-Killers , anyone got anything to add about them?

Safeties Off: For a fate point a Desperado can always go first (instead of a 10 on his initiative roll) and get a half-move OR half-aim action as a free action. (If surprised, the surprise round still happens first.)

Saint-of-Killers: After spending one full round psyching himself up with flashbacks, self-loathing or some such, the Desperado can enter a state that turns him into a death-hurling whirlwind. He gains +10 BS, T, WP and Ag, and -20 to all tests of Int, Fel, and WS, and must attack the easiest possible shot first until the target is down, before working outwards in this way up to the hardest shot. This trait otherwise works like frenzy for immunities, avoided actions and snapping out of it.

[safeties Off] I feel like would be better named [The Quick and the Dead] since the latter sounds more (and appropriately) aggressive and empowering, though that's a personal preference. Also, nothing stops a Desperado from waltzing in with a Heavy Stubber and moving first, as currently written. Otherwise, I ship it.

[saint-of-Killers]... Sorry, but I have no feelings for it. A gun-leaning [Frenzy] is better off as an actual Talent than a Role Bonus.

[safeties Off] I feel like would be better named [The Quick and the Dead] since the latter sounds more (and appropriately) aggressive and empowering, though that's a personal preference. Also, nothing stops a Desperado from waltzing in with a Heavy Stubber and moving first, as currently written. Otherwise, I ship it.

[saint-of-Killers]... Sorry, but I have no feelings for it. A gun-leaning [Frenzy] is better off as an actual Talent than a Role Bonus.

Safeties Off now is the Quick and the Dead . The stipulation could be for the same as for quickdraw, it can only be used if the Desperado has a basic weapon or a pistol? or it can't be done at all if the desperado is carrying a heavy weapon?

Saint-of-Killers goes in the bin, unless anyone has anything to say about it?

Yeah the MIU does somewhat make Move and Shoot obsolete, but I'd like to take a moment to rewind this a bit. As an old hand at gunslinging in Dark Heresy, I'm gonna have to say that Pistol class weapons are a lot more viable than I'm seeing people give them credit for.

Being both a GM in a few games and a player in two others I've seen it from both sides, and any GM worth their salt will play their antagonists like they would actually behave. Gangers run from the guy with the autocannon, then they dump a ton of trash on his head when he chases them down the alley, they charge the sniper, they keep their distance and shoot at the guy with the flamer or the nasty looking swords......or the rabies foam dribbling from his lips. With a gunslinger they don't have a lot of good options, if they run there's a good chance you're faster, if they close with you then you shoot them, if they keep their distance you still shoot them, if they charge you shoot them. with hand cannons loaded with the right ammo you do damage almost on par with a bolter, you get two shots a turn, and if you are out of your standard range then there's a good change you have a lot of good cover between you and your opponent that you can get to via Move and Shoot whilst still taking pot shots at them and closing the distance.

In the new system if you pair that with a high agility, and Inescapable attack then you're probably going to be laying down a lot of hurt while not receiving much, couple that with the fact you can still use a lot of skills or other non-attack items like a Auspex if you only half action move and gunslingers become very dangerous and very hard to deal with if they think on their feet.

One of my favorite things to do with my formerly Scum Metallican gunslinger/ currently Hive world outcast desperado is getting in fights with snipers, duck and dodge through debris all the while closing in and then getting into grips with them, my gunslingers favorite place to be in engaged at melee range.

The Sniper assassin who plays with us on the other hand usually whines because its kinda hard to set up clear sight lines in a crowded hive, and the fact that once a heretic turns a corner he spends the rest of the fight trying to reposition and get a clear shot while I can run someone down, shoot them in the back and break into a door or pocket an artifact in a turn. Mobility is strength, and so is adaptability, granted anyone with a good requisition roll could be doing the same thing Crisis does via the MIU weapon interface, they still wouldn't be doing it with the same style and attitude, and they still probably wouldn't be as good at it, and a good roll on a Haywire effect sucks a lot more for someone who has cybernetics than it does for a dude who just has guns, because hand cannons can still crack a skull open pretty effectively even when muscle powered.

EDIT: Also pistols are lighter, can be wielded in melee without having to change weapons, easier to conceal and therefore can go with you into a lot more places, they look a lot less conspicuous and threatening than a dude walking around with two autoguns (which means they're a lot less likely to blow your cover and destroy your subtlety) , are generally cheaper, and the humble stub revolver (at least the way anyone sensible runs it) essentially has a built in fire selector because you can spin the chamber until the bullet you want to fire is lined up, meaning you can keep 3 manstoppers and 3 tox rounds for instance, in case you need to drop heavies in armor or dangerous folks who look like they need their blood replaced with a hefty dose of deadly venom, so by and large pistols are much more utilitarian. A lot less full frontal assault, a lot more every day walking around casual violence.

Tempest,

Thank you for your input. You focus on the 'soul' of using the Gunslinger Desperado, and your interpretation reads well.

Character is more important to me than destructive capability. If someone's GM wants to allow twin autoguns, recoil gloves, and any variation of hip-moving/shooting they like, then that's cool, subtlety suffers (or at least it should) and I hope their character likes explaining themselves to the Arbites and Enforcers.

You've discussed the finer points of playing the character, and it's pros over cons... and I thank you for your input! most informative.

However, the focus of this exercise what to interpret the rule, to discuss it and dissect it, and decide upon a replacement, of which two were offered. what did you think of those two choices?

There were opinions on the rules buried in there. I don't think the ability really needs to be replaced. My point, I suppose, was the ability basically gives you a slightly toned down version of a rare cybernetic or tier 2 talent for free, and that if it is used correctly by a wily player (the sort desperadoes seem like they were written to be played by) then it can find almost infinite use, and it never loses it's utility, because it means with no talents at all at, bare minimum, on the first turn of combat you can draw your weapon, move, and shoot, and any subsequent turns you can move, shoot, and still have an action to do something else like: sleight of hand to steal an object, use an auspex to find a target or objective on the other side of a wall, use the Command skill to boost your allies, reload a modded weapon, simply Aim at someone, and so so much more, once you start adding talents into the mix really the only limit is the player's imagination and what the GM will allow them to do. A free half action in combat to add on top of a mobile fighting style in very nice, and starting out with a free version of (admittedly discluding the Two-weapon fighting stuff) Hip Shooting **** sure ain't bad either. It pretty much ends up meaning that even in the midst of a furious fire fight a desperado always gets a shot off, can almost always be in cover, is very hard to run down, and can achieve secondary objectives like stealing artifacts and such without ever having to give up contributing to the fight.

I think in general people like to complain too much, and jump the gun on things. Either run a game with a smart player running a desperado or play one yourself for a full adventure or two before you start throwing things out wholesale. It's a good ability not because of what it gives you, but because of what it doesn't cost you.

Now as far as Move and Shoot versus the MIU Weapon Interface, well I don't have much to say, cybernetics give free action attacks, all but one of the mechandendrites does as I recall, in Deathwatch the servo arm did, so there is a precedent, but cybernetics come with downsides, like you have to acquire, them, have them installed (which takes you out of the action for a bit and can, if your GM runs it this way and the Npc makes a bad roll, cause crippling wounds to your character), they are noticeable, and now you are cybernetic (which means haywire fields can really suck for you), and you better be treating that nice piece of venerated technology well in public lest the Red Priests hear of it and come to give you a talking to.

First, I want to bring up a few e-mail responses I got a while back concerning Desperadoes for discussion. These are more casual back-and-forths rather than official responses:

Me: [Move and Shoot] allows a Free Action single shot from a single pistol as part of a Move action, as written. However, the [MIU Weapon Interface] makes [Move and Shoot] irrelevant as early as character generation since the implant allows ANY character's mounted weapon (which may not be a Pistol) to fire as a Free Action (on presumably any fire mode). What is your input on [Move and Shoot]'s viability? I feel like Desperados would need a new bonus since it's instantly eclipsed by anyone who buys the implant (and house rule suggestions have been discussed on the forums).
Tim Huckelbery: Yes, it's possible to take another upgrade that is better than a special rule gained in character creation, but that doesn't necessarily make the original bonus not valuable. Acolytes who rely on sneakiness and disguise might not prefer having a weapon mounting on their body (or displaying a weapon openly); others might not want to undergo what could be a risky (and non-essential) medical procedure.

Me: If a Pistol does not have a single-shot mode (say, -/-/6), is it still eligible for [Move and Shoot]?

Tim Huckelbery: As written, no. It's possible that could change to to allow any firing action (Single, Semi, or Full Auto). I think more play results from people would be needed before we change the rule.

Me: Is [Move and Shoot] only compatible with the actual [Move {Action}]? I've been lenient and letting it slide with [Disengage], [Half Move via Guarded Action], [Tactical Advance], and even [Run]. I don't know if that's how it was meant to be used, but [Move and Shoot] felt kind of lackluster otherwise.
Tim Huckelbery: As written, yes. It is possible it could be expanded to Run and Jump/Leap actions though, or perhaps even any action with the Movement subtype. I could see it opening up more, for either more shots from a single pistol or more options to take a single shot when moving around. We'll be thinking about it.

Tim does bring up a few of the things you touched upon, [TempestSatori]. However, my main concern is how Desperadoes can be in a position to lose their bonus entirely or have it eclipsed by other characters. If I'm playing a Desperado, I expect to carve out my niche building around Move and Shoot. As soon as one other player picks up an MIU Weapon Interface, my niche is trampled on. If I'm the one who wants to pick up that Cybernetic, I basically don't have a Role Bonus anymore. To me, that's a horrible feeling, and I don't want any of my (fellow) players to feel that way.

Early/free access to a Talent or what have you is not good enough for a Bonus that can only be obtained at character creation. I detest Forge Worlds for that reason; they only grant a Talent that any other person could buy. If I put two characters with Technical Knock or Weapon-Tech together, neither one will scream "Forge Worlder" any more than the other one. Again, it's a horrible feeling when your character, your own special snowflake, has nothing to call his own. Chirurgeons don't have a Bonus until they fail their tests, and Mystics "only" get the Psyker Elite Advance for free. These are all Bonuses I disagree with since they're very hard for players to appreciate. Slightly off-topic, but I hope this demonstrates my point.

Desperadoes almost have a unique Bonus that remains tangible during all stages at the game. They just need a little push to make them truly shine as individuals.

I don't have a problem with other bonuses ala mystics or the forge world bonus, I can see that Move and Shoot could be better without it breaking the game as things stand, but I don't think it needs for it to be for it to be playable. On top of that, it is the only role bonus, aside from mystic, that doesn't require a fate point.

And if you played a Warrior would you build it completely about Expert at Violence? What happens when you run out of Fate points? Or you need to heal? Roles help define your character but they are not all your character is or ever will be.

I like move and shoot. Could I like it more? Yes. Could I like it less? Definitely. I can see your point, but I think you are making mountains out of mole hills. I think Move and Shoot is playable, useful, and decently well thought out, but I don't think it's perfect, I think if could use a little something to make it stand out from the MIU, and make it more distinct from Hip Shooting, because as it stands those two things do kinda replicate some or all of it's effects.

You could say making mountains out of molehills is my specialty. I don't contest such issues without good reason, though outside opinion may differ. Are all the current character creation options playable? Of course. Are all of them satisfying? Not to me. Bonuses should be Bonuses, not Talents, not Elite Advances, not Equipment. And Bonuses certainly shouldn't be made obsolete by any of those things either.

Warrior is not a good example of something to build a character around. Expert at Violence is simply not defining as a character concept. Any character could score multiple DoS, with or without a Fate point. Being able to guarantee a certain number of DoS doesn't make Warriors particularly special. The feel of Move and Shoot, barring Hip Shooting and the MIU Weapon Interface, is unique to Desperadoes. It's something they can appreciate every turn and in every combat, if they so choose. Move and Shoot's availability and flexibility is what allows players to build around it.

Although it's beyond the scope of this discussion, I have a problem with every non-Desperado Role, really. The cookie-cutter Bonus to "spend a Fate point to automatically succeed" is not satisfying at all, it's just a cop-out.

I like the other role bonuses. I don't feel they are a cop out, I feel like they make you an expert in an area of focus, someone who in a pinch does not fail at something is awesome, not to mention as a GM, knowing that I can throw some horrendous **** down the pipe at my players and at least once a game they can always come out on top. A hellish (-60) lore test to figure out how to finally kill off this demon that has been plaguing a hive? Sage has that **** on lockdown, with likely 4 or more degrees of success to boot. Need to scare the piss out of a planetary governor? -60 intimidate test, hierophant go get em.

Now not only does it mean that one rough obstacle doesn't completely shut an investigation down, it also means that a player gets to shine in a situation that none of the other players could, which as long as such things get spread out evenly by the GM makes everyone feel like a vital and useful part of the group, everybody gets their moment in the sun, everyone gets to feel like a badass who makes a difference and saves the day.

I especially love the chirurgeon's bonus because it means you never have to accidentally murder a party member by ******* up a medicae roll to save them, and it means you can reliably pull people back from the brink of death and dismemberment no matter how hard the test is, and not only does that make you as a player feel awesome, it also makes everyone in the party your best friend. It is a great ability.

OK, so we've gone quite off-topic.

TempestSatori, you like to stick with move-and-shoot, that's great, you like how it works for you - excellent. The two alternate role bonuses worked on previously in this forum discussion, you like neither - that's cool, you don't have to. You've made an excellent case for the role bonus as-is, sounds good and i'm sure as a player, or for your players, it makes the game entertaining, which is the most important rule.

Asymptomatic, you find cons with all of the role bonus and some world starter-bonuses, that's fine - not every ruleset can please/appease every fan. There are things I don't like about the D100 WHFRP system, but I won't discuss them here. I'm sure you find plenty of Pros with the system though, as you're passionate about the discussion - but we won't discuss those things here either.

Looks like we've all asked rule questions about that particular role bonus, and it looks like the writers have listened and are thinking. promoting thought is good, and I look forward to the Errata.

I feel that, from this thread, I have gained an appreciation for both sides of the coin or all six faces of this 3-dimensional cube-shaped matter, and you've all helped with that. I know what I will be sticking with or using, I know how it would work for me, so thank you.

Greetings fellow GMs!

Sorry to bump up the topic.

The Errata/FAQ, now at version 1.1 at the time of this reading, has taken all our concerns into account for this somewhat slightly-underpowered (depending on your PoV) role bonus and hopefully clarified them.

Sigh. I kinda hoped for a significant change of what the role bonus was - never mind though! It's up to the player to make the most of it.

And make the most of it they probably will.

OK, so we've gone quite off-topic.

TempestSatori, you like to stick with move-and-shoot, that's great, you like how it works for you - excellent. The two alternate role bonuses worked on previously in this forum discussion, you like neither - that's cool, you don't have to. You've made an excellent case for the role bonus as-is, sounds good and i'm sure as a player, or for your players, it makes the game entertaining, which is the most important rule.

Asymptomatic, you find cons with all of the role bonus and some world starter-bonuses, that's fine - not every ruleset can please/appease every fan. There are things I don't like about the D100 WHFRP system, but I won't discuss them here. I'm sure you find plenty of Pros with the system though, as you're passionate about the discussion - but we won't discuss those things here either.

Looks like we've all asked rule questions about that particular role bonus, and it looks like the writers have listened and are thinking. promoting thought is good, and I look forward to the Errata.

I feel that, from this thread, I have gained an appreciation for both sides of the coin or all six faces of this 3-dimensional cube-shaped matter, and you've all helped with that. I know what I will be sticking with or using, I know how it would work for me, so thank you.

Yeah the MIU does somewhat make Move and Shoot obsolete, but I'd like to take a moment to rewind this a bit. As an old hand at gunslinging in Dark Heresy, I'm gonna have to say that Pistol class weapons are a lot more viable than I'm seeing people give them credit for.

Being both a GM in a few games and a player in two others I've seen it from both sides, and any GM worth their salt will play their antagonists like they would actually behave. Gangers run from the guy with the autocannon, then they dump a ton of trash on his head when he chases them down the alley, they charge the sniper, they keep their distance and shoot at the guy with the flamer or the nasty looking swords......or the rabies foam dribbling from his lips. With a gunslinger they don't have a lot of good options, if they run there's a good chance you're faster, if they close with you then you shoot them, if they keep their distance you still shoot them, if they charge you shoot them. with hand cannons loaded with the right ammo you do damage almost on par with a bolter, you get two shots a turn, and if you are out of your standard range then there's a good change you have a lot of good cover between you and your opponent that you can get to via Move and Shoot whilst still taking pot shots at them and closing the distance.

In the new system if you pair that with a high agility, and Inescapable attack then you're probably going to be laying down a lot of hurt while not receiving much, couple that with the fact you can still use a lot of skills or other non-attack items like a Auspex if you only half action move and gunslingers become very dangerous and very hard to deal with if they think on their feet.

One of my favorite things to do with my formerly Scum Metallican gunslinger/ currently Hive world outcast desperado is getting in fights with snipers, duck and dodge through debris all the while closing in and then getting into grips with them, my gunslingers favorite place to be in engaged at melee range.

The Sniper assassin who plays with us on the other hand usually whines because its kinda hard to set up clear sight lines in a crowded hive, and the fact that once a heretic turns a corner he spends the rest of the fight trying to reposition and get a clear shot while I can run someone down, shoot them in the back and break into a door or pocket an artifact in a turn. Mobility is strength, and so is adaptability, granted anyone with a good requisition roll could be doing the same thing Crisis does via the MIU weapon interface, they still wouldn't be doing it with the same style and attitude, and they still probably wouldn't be as good at it, and a good roll on a Haywire effect sucks a lot more for someone who has cybernetics than it does for a dude who just has guns, because hand cannons can still crack a skull open pretty effectively even when muscle powered.

EDIT: Also pistols are lighter, can be wielded in melee without having to change weapons, easier to conceal and therefore can go with you into a lot more places, they look a lot less conspicuous and threatening than a dude walking around with two autoguns (which means they're a lot less likely to blow your cover and destroy your subtlety) , are generally cheaper, and the humble stub revolver (at least the way anyone sensible runs it) essentially has a built in fire selector because you can spin the chamber until the bullet you want to fire is lined up, meaning you can keep 3 manstoppers and 3 tox rounds for instance, in case you need to drop heavies in armor or dangerous folks who look like they need their blood replaced with a hefty dose of deadly venom, so by and large pistols are much more utilitarian. A lot less full frontal assault, a lot more every day walking around casual violence.

We have a Gunslinger in our DH1, and well he has learn to make mobile stands and has a habit of either single shots from heavy pistols/bolt pistols or pull his Autopistols and make surpressive/or spray and pray fire.

But yes there is a lot to be said for and investigator with pistols being able to conceal them, and at the same time be able to run and gun. Yes he can be out ranged, but well we have a few people with longer ranged weapons for that problem, plus if we do our job right, his lack of range well isn't a issue.

Don't know if this applies - characters can't do the same action back to back?

I.E. can't do 2 Half Action attacks nor 2 Half Action Moves in a Round(Turn) ; remember seeing that in the FFG material - does that apply here to this question?

Morbid

Don't know if this applies - characters can't do the same action back to back?

I.E. can't do 2 Half Action attacks nor 2 Half Action Moves in a Round(Turn) ; remember seeing that in the FFG material - does that apply here to this question?

Morbid

You appear to have the Same interpretation as me, MorbidDon. That does apply. The FAQ/Errata does clarify a lot of what we discussed.