So, erick and I just playe like 5 straight hours of thrones, moving from standard to lcg. It was lots of fun, with the notable exception of one thing: Lannisters.

I know I've probably ranted about them before here, but I'm trying again in a vain hope that Nate, who I belives designs the cards, will realize that his bias for Lannisters (as stated openly in his interview) is warping the game in a bad way. And it needs to stop, because everytime I play an LCG game against lannis, I feel like I'm fighting a huge uphill battle, and its not fun. It, in fact, turns me off of the game everytime. This is bad.

The lannisters have amazing events, like A Lannister Repays his Debts.(Lose a challenge? that's fine, kneel that weaponsmith and kill Edard Stark.) I'm You Writ Small (you blocked me in a challenge? well now its deadly and I have +2 str, lose your defender), Insidious Ways (another +2 str, and now if I win, I get even more cards). And that's just in the Core Set (where by the way, they have the most house x only events).

Lannisters have card draw that is locations (gold tooth mines) and in characters(qyburns informers) in events (as above). They have the most access to gold in characters (weaponsmith, Tywin, etc) and Plots (Hear me Roar is one of only 2 5 gold plot in the core set.) The amount of kneeling and control aspects they have (You picked the Wrong Dwarf, Castellan of the Rock, Enemy Informers, Cersei, Lannisport brothel, Cersei's attentdent etc) as well as head of a Dwarf, the new ridiculous Tyrion, Lions Gate, etc) is really getting to be too much. And the location that gives all their people +1 for each one in shadows?

The biggest problem I think is that their themes all work together and mesh well, where as the other houses just don't have that yet. Not to mention that giving any house easy access to both card draw and resources is a bad idea. Not only that, lannis are supposed to be intrigue guys, and yet they have quite a powerful military arm. Ask the Starks how many intrigue Icons they have, maybe 5? and most of them are crap cards. And I now know its not just me, cause honestly I can be bitter sometimes. So here's hoping the designers read this, and pay attention. lannister doesn't need anymore power cards , please stop giving them such crazy cards. Please focus on making more cohesive themes for the other houses. With the coming of the awesome new storyline prizes, I think the design people need to be even more careful.

I have played many times against lannisters, since we have two very good players here in new york. The only time I've won with a variety of decks, is with a bara deck specifically designed to work against lannisters. and that's even hit or miss.

So I'm going out on a limb, I'm hoping someone might back me up on this. Because its getting to a point where I almost would choose not to play, than play against lannis, its such a drag. Sorry about this long drawn out thing, but after today, I have to put this out there again, because I hope that this is read by the designe people and maybe they'll do something about it.

Now back to my cave. I think the boards sense my bitter anger, since it took my ten tries to get logged in...

I'm not big on criticizing the game in general, because I have always been a huge supporter of the game and the creators, but I felt compelled to post on this because a) I admire someone who stands up and puts themselves out there to get ripped a new one lol, and b) It was strangely similar to a conversation a few guys in our meta had today.

To set up the scene, Guardian of the Night, Pube Fairy, and I were all hanging out together this morning, deckbuilding, playtesting, and playing thrones. We had decided back when we started playing again that even though we do have some standard cards, that we'd throw all of our weight behind the LCG format and bought into it. A few core sets and all of the chapter packs later, you've got Guardian building Bara, Me struggling to build Greyjoy, and Pube Fairy settling on Lannister, and today was the first day we had seen his Lanni in action.

Now we had already decided (Guardian and I) that Lanni was the best house to use in the LCG just by looking over all of the cards, but we had left the thought open that maybe we we're being a bit bias, until we played it. Pubes has built a monster draw and gold producing Summer-Lanni deck, and after playing against it and actually playing with it, we realized it is indeed head and shoulders above what I could do with my beloved Greyjoy among other. The main foil to my whole "Lanni is best, because its better then what I could do" argument is that Kings of the Sea hasnt come out yet, but what about the other houses that were in the core set with Lanni?

Since getting back into the game, Guardian has tried many different builds on his Bara and has built a Stark deck for a new player, and compared to Pube's deck, it was clear that Lanni definately flowed much better. The things they are good at, they are very good at and have an abundance of. The funny thing is Chris, is that Guardian used some of the exact same arguments that you did today when we were playing. His main problem is that Bara (among others) lacks the synergy that Lanni has.

Even Pube Fairy agreed with us and said it was hilariously terrible, of course he kind of enjoys being able to do insane things no one else can. lol.

Greyjoy Chris said:

I agree with the general sentiment expressed in this thread and the above statement in particular. Lannister has traditionally had lots of card draw and gold, so I don't think having both is inherently strong or imbalanced. The real problem is that other houses don't have gold or card draw alternatives in the current LCG format that would allow them to keep up. Rather than Lannister having a slight advantage in these areas, it basically blows the other houses away. Even with recursion, it's hard for other houses to keep up.

The real question then becomes "how do you fix this problem?" It seems to me that there are three options: (1) Issue a card errata/ban against the cards that most efficiently give Lannister an advantage; (2) design and print some equally imbalanced cards that make other houses immediately more competitive; and (3) allow the card pool to eventually balance out in the long run.

In general, I think options (1) and (2) should be avoided because they take a short-term approach that can lead to long-term game imbalances. For example, Pyromancer's Cache was banned in LCG format because it was too hard for the limited card pool to deal with. As time has passed, however, Lannister received more draw, making this card relatively less abusive. In fact, many players request that the card is unbanned because it could give other houses an out-of-house draw option. Similarly, printing cards that try to strengthen a house to compensate for temporary weaknesses can lead to cards like Prince's Loyalist and The Broken Arm being printed. (I'm not sure if the current LCG environment has any cards like this, but I suspect that the Greyjoy character that discards non-uniques could be somewhat imbalanced once the Greyjoy expansion is released.)

This leaves option (3), and I think that's the approach that FFG/Nate is taking to correct Lannister's obvious imbalances. It's true that when cards like Shadow Tyrion are released the community knee-jerk reaction is "WTF, they already have enough good cards!" Nevertheless, as other houses receive some in-house (or greater flexibility in neutral) gold and draw, Lannister's superiority in these areas will become less accute. Meanwhile, those houses will receive their own strong mechanics to mitigate Lannister's. (Note: Baratheon is already getting power rush cards that make it fairly strong in multiplayer, and a few "claim power" events would probably go a long way to making it a competitive joust house. Targ has also received some good cards, though my sense is that to be competitive it relies on the summer mechanic. Some in-house gold would go a long way to making it a very competitive house and give it more flexibility outside of the summer mechanic.)

I guess what I'm suggesting is that we take a "wait-and-see" approach to house Lannister. That's probably not ideal, considering GenCon is coming up and it's unlikely anything will change dramatically before then. The release of the Greyjoy expansion may do something though, especially if it includes location removal and neutral gold-providing locations for other houses, both of which will mitigate Lannister's gold advantage and help to control Golden Tooth Mines.

Twn2dn said:

I agree that taking it slow to equal out the houses is the right option. However, as more power cards (like the new tyrion) get printed, the longer and harder it will be for other houses to catch up. I feel that in almost every chapter pack there's been at least one solid, powerful lannister card if not more (and that are cohesive to their theme as has been said before). This is not something that can be said for the other houses, and as long as that trend continues, the lannisters will have the edge for a long time to come. So while I do think that the wait and see approach is appropriate, how long can we expect to wait while Lannister dominates?

I do hope that the greyjoy expansion adds some options. I personally have noticed that almost every deck runs Samwell, since the seasons are popular and he's about the only neutral card draw. i would hope that there is more neutral card draw, just more limited in approach.

I think there is a 4th option: print some meta cards. Every game has it. And as long as it stays broad, like say punishing card draw, or power rush, or anything really. This isn't gonna break the game, and it will help to even out the power levels without banning cards or creating overpowered cards. Right now, there is NO reason for lannisters not to run tons of card draw, or kneeling etc. Give them a reason to think about it. I have to worry evertime I attack them whether or not my guy is gonna die to his stupid event. Or if I block, will I suddenly be facing deadly and +2 str. These events epitomize the kind of stuff I'm talking about. We need more of that, but just not house lannister only.

Couple last gripes: Do the Lannis really need to add the shadow mechanic to their repitoire? Couldn't martell maybe take that one?

Well to be fair, all the houses are getting shadow cards, not just lanni.

Also, I really think that the think that lcg lacks is cancels and attachment control. I think that paper shield/countered plots, queen of thorns, weapons at the door, would go a long way towards balancing things out. I also think that Pyro's should be unbanned. Its def worth the 3 gold out of house.

I'm just way too tired at the moment to really get into the discussion here, but I'd like to say that the new Bound By Duty event that Stark just added to their repetoire is an amazingly versatile card and really hampers Lannister's only strategy right now.

Well, I think the Lanni superiority depends on metagame... I explain: for example in Italy, where live, I have NEVER lost a game against a Lanni deck (in LCG) with my Stark deck, never (and I played against different versions: one with Valar Morghulis and a lot of saving cards, another with a super-kneeling mechanics, another one played in summer and one other in winter).

And I manage to win a few times even with my Bara deck (but in this case the battle is far more difficult, I have to admit).

Maybe the meta in Italy is different, maybe Lanni is played in different ways (or I play a different Stark, I can't say...), but it is far from being an invincible deck, a great one sure, but not so terrifing IMHO.

For stark in particular Cat o' the Cannals +Ice, the Bara/Stark Stalwart with Vigilant, the new event Bound by Duty, Old Nan +Carrion Bird, Robb Stark, Fury of the Wolf etc etc are all pretty fine against Lannister.

One think is obvious, the LCG enviroinment have to balance a lot of things like the draw engine (only lannister have one), the location control (only one card available, and not so easy to use, is really insufficient), 2 houses are missing and the attachment control, in fact only 3 houses can deal with and all the 3 houses with great limitations (Bara can discard only Conditions, Targ can deal with non-unique attachment or 1 unique attachment if Mad King Legacy is played and Lanni can only move attachment).

Greyjoy Chris said:

You are not honestly suggesting that a major new mechanic is added to the game and present in every House but Lannister are you? Lannister is tied for my third favorite House well behind Greyjoy and Martell but that would make me seriously consider this was a game I wanted to play. It is one thing for one House to have themes that are advantageous and in the previous environment relatively balanced and another to purposefully hamstring a House by excluding it entirely from the coolest addition to the game since deadly.

How much multi-player do you guys play?

I'm also a little surprised that Bara vigilant isn't keeping the win ratio down for Lannister. Not to mention Bara Winter with Burning Blade and Shadow Stalker.

LCG Lannister has a lot of synergy, but the other Houses are not bereft of it. In melee locking down the board through kneel is pretty impossible with two experienced melee players. Locking down key charaters however is certainly possible and can be enough to get a win but it is far from an assured thing. Lannister has been a strong house since the creation of the game. Nate hasn't been lead designer anywhere near the majority of their time in the sun. I don't think you can blame his love of the House in the books as the reason why Lannister has such a long history of dominance. Draw and gold is the perfect storm of card advantage. Lannister has always been strong in military in the game and in the books. Almost half of the intrigue icon characters also have military icons. What they are short on are power icons.

I've had success against Lannister by controlling their power icons and building a deck with a large amount of my own. If I can get stealthy or deadly power icons it becomes even easier.

All that said, Greyjoy, like Martell is a hard House to play now and doesn't really stand up in joust to Lannister at all. The expansions will certainly help and I honestly believe that the thing that keeps Lannister in check the most are Greyjoy (the ability to destroy those resources and bypass blockers for unoppsed challenges even with most of their characters kneeling) and Martell, the only House that has traditionally been able to challenge Lannister in control, intrigue, and card draw.

I personally hate meta cards. In my experience they have to be so specific to counter a given card or tactic so as not to add additional firepower to the very deck or affiliation they are meant to keep in check that they rarely see use. I'd rather a well balanced gaming environment with Houses that keep each other in check. I firmly believe we are rapidly approaching that again.

Has anyone tried Targ summer against Lanni? Remember... before Winter Ed. came out? From what I hear Lanni and Targ were the two power houses. Then came location control. Lanni's advantage is that they need gold to use thier card draw with. If the Kings of the Sea expansion adds some balanced location control...

I would try a Bara winter weenie deck with pay gold cards like motley, Illyrio, etc. Toss in all the save they have and the epic battles event. Don't forget the "To Be A Stag" and that phenominally awesome shadows card Baratheon got. Then use winter, blockade, rains of autumn. Choke them out. I've been testing a bara winter deck... it's friggin brutal against the Targ deck I made.

Also... note Stark has the only shadows reducer... which means they are the only ones that can play thier cheap shadows cards before challenges phase (in marshalling IIRC, the time to play shadows cards is before income is determined).

EDIT: Martel does have the 0s cost shadows card... but you know what I mean. And please don't counter with Planning Ahead... I think using a plot for one turn is a little different that having a shadow reducer.

dormouse said:

Absolutely not, that would be aweful. but does lannister have to be the power player in shadows? Every theme has one house that tends to dominate in that area, and I feel like giving Lannister amazing shadow cards is a little much. But, I do understand why they would get it, since they're all tricky and such.

dormouse said:

I play a Bara vigilant deck. Admittedly, i'm not the best deck builder, but it works maybe 50-75% depending on the lanni deck and the player. I agree that this is not Nate's fault, as far as the themes Lannister has. There isn't any reason that couldn't change though, esp if its gonna be good for the game. However, continuing with the powerful trend, and sometimes expandign on is what I'm worried about.

I get that Lannisters in the book shave tons of gold and schemers etc. However, unlike the book, a CCG has to be balanced, therefore, not every theme of the house can be accurately reflected in the game. Also, while power icons are the win condition, Military and Intrigue are powerful control, which combined with their kneeling means that I lose card advantage twice, by losing cards on the table to military and cards in hand, with not many options thanks to the kneel.

dormouse said:

I will have to try out your suggestion, its honestly one i haven't really thought about, and I love any advice you'd have about it.

Yeah, I am waiting till the GJ expansion as well, I think it will adress alot of my concerns, at least I hope it will. Then I'll be happy to eat my words and apologize.

I agree with chris in that playing against Lannister right now in LCG is just too frustarting to bother with. Its one of the main reasons i prefr standard. Tehre just isn't teh depth in teh card pool to deal with all the pwoer cards Lanni has gotten in the Chapter Packs.

Which leads into my point supporting Staton. One reason standard is more balanced is the availability of cancel. Once there is a way to shut down some of Lannis effects and once we have soem way to atatck their resources, they will come abck to the pack a little. I would like to see a little more character immunity as well. Geez - i miss Paper HSield though. Its just silly that Writ Small and LPHD are automatic at this point. There is no way to stope them, and little point in trying.

I haven't played with teh shadow stuff yet, so i don't have a good snese of it. But there is no question that Lanni is dominant in LCG - and until the card pool is deper, this just sin't going to change.

This should start a firestorm, but I'll say this: Why not unban Pyromancer's Cache?

It gives everyone access (esp. once Greyjoy gets us the Kings/Queens and some more location control) to card draw that's reliable and somewhat durable (til more attachment/location control is available). And like playing Seal of the Lion back in the day, 3 gold OOH isn't an unreasonable cost. So Lanni still gets there "house flavor" and can still draw their 3rd card easier than the rest, but the rest of "us" (I think the only tourney deck I played that was Lanni for the longest time was a ToB-era "Iron Throne" theme deck with the Petty Noble and Lord Tyrion's Host) can actually have some workable draw too.

Just a thought. Discuss amongst yourselves, I'm gonna go back to bed.

Man, you can really get a feel for Stags righteous anger by the number of typos in that last post. lol I counted at least 12 just skimming. haha

Anyway, there really needs to be some sort of Legacy Pack or something that reprints stuff from ITE and 5KE. Then I'm thinking LCG would be competative and balanced, at least more so than it is now. Let's assume there are 40 card slots in there. I'll give my top 5 picks.

1.Queen of Thorns

2. Paper Shield/Countered Plots-Not sure which I'd rather have.

3.Stripped of Honors-this is just a card I want in lcg, it doesn't really help anyone other than bara players obviously, so might not be that helpful in balancing things

4.Rare Kingdoms/Fallow Fields-I'd probably want both

5.High Tide-Lannisport Brothel, pwned.

I'd also like to see most if not all of the traited plots reprinted ie Swearing of Oaths, Battle on Blackwater Bay, etc.

LUke: I agree. It really needs to be unbanned. It'd help the other houses way more than lanni. Reliable, repeatable draw would be HUGE in LCG. Maybe not enough to balance the environment on its own, but def a big step in the right direction

In our Meta, Kennon is the resident Lannister player, and has been successful for sometime running them. And he makes efficient decks and plays them quite well.

But that being said, Lanny doesn't dominate. This past Saturday I came playing Targ, and although Kennon beat me, it was a close, great game. And then Jeppedo, playing Stark, beat Lanny in about 8 minutes. Then Lanny beat Baratheon, but everything beat Baratheon.

I think the Dominance of Lannister has been overstated, although I will agree they are the strongest house at this time.

Yeah, I agree that Lannister isn't that much better than the other houses, but it is clearly better. I think my biggest complaint is how easy it is to build a cohesive deck with Lanni in lcg. It just seems like all the cards just fit so well together, wheras most of the other houses seem to be like Greyjoy has been in the past, lots of puzzle pieces from lots of different puzzles.

Staton said:

Yes, I think that is the biggest issue. It isn't so much how much better they are (cause I don't think they are that much better than Stark, Targ, and Greyjoy), its that they are so much easier. Gold- easy, Draw- easy, kneel- easy. You don't have to think hard at all to put these aspects in a Lanny deck. The other houses you have to get a little more creative with Card advantage, income and character control.

Yeah, and speaking of Draw and the like, what about Battle at the Wall? That's the epic phase for bara, right? That seems like it could be a stand in for Watching in the LCG bara decks. Not quite as good, but coupled with Seductive Promise and Support of the Kingdom, the extra power challenge could be useful even outside of the 3 extra cards. And Bara is getting more vigilant too, plus there's the bannerman to make someone vigilant. It seems like they should be really strong soon. Also, I hope the 5ke viper gets reprinted in the Martell expansion. That guy is awesome ooh!

Its not bad - but its not as reliable as Watching. I wouldn't call it an automatic, but maybe in LCG - it is. Though I never have room for it in my event slots. I like to be a Stag, Vigilant Stag, Support and one or two others- and by then I am pretty close to my limit on events.

I agree with Staton that Stripped should come back. The Asshai guy who keys off Kingdom locations will be more playable with Kings of the Sea...but more atatchment control is needed.

And yes, Luke - I am with you. Cache never shoudl ahve gone in teh first place, and i see no reason why it shouldn't get an LCG reprint.

I still think Lannister is dominant, all things being equal. Otehr Houses have good builds, but given two players that are close in skill, I think the Lannister deck wins most matchups.

See I don't think I'd use Vigilant Stag over Battle at the Wall in LCG. I'd rather have the draw, since there doesn't seem to be too many characters in lcg that'd I'd want to bother giving vigilant(there are a few, like the winter assassin guy, but I'd rather just use the Bannerman since I at least have a character if I can't really use the vigilant).

see - i run Bannerman x 3 plus six stand events. tehre is this misconcpetion that Baratheon is laoded with great vigilant characters - but really, you want your renown characters to be Vigilant so you can maximize the rush and end the game as quickly as possible. I mean - those little sentries, Mace's Retainers (or whatever) and those really expensive asshai with 2 STR aren;'t going to close the game out for you.

So I think you need those events (at the bare minumum) to counter all the kneel and to end the game before they get the lock. I do like the epic Battle - i just can't seem to find room for it. I'll tkae another look at it though - the Vigilant Stags do make you play influence, and i like getting away from that.

Staton said:

Wtf mate... How they hell do you pull of that contortion? You can't possibly be that flexible.

And I take it by this outburst of post-tastic-ness, that you've recovered a computer?

Watch out, trying to extend a puzzle metaphor into Greyjoy and away from madkasel's "Bara is the 1000 piece puzzle" line could get you censured. I will say that GJ in classic highlander is super fun though.

haha. Well I don't think its contradictary, maybe poor wordage. I meant that Lannister is better, but not by much. In standard I'd say that Baratheon is better than Lannister, but its not too clear, its arguable, not everyone would agree. That sort of thing. In LCG, I think that everyone is in agreement that Lannister is better than all the other houses, but I'm saying that I don't think its by much.

Also, touche on the MadK thing. I should've used Ktom's moving parts metaphor.

EDIT: Also, no, I don't have a computer at home. I'm just at work.

Where are you working now? And do you realize if you hadn't gotten Katie fired (looks at watch to see how long this comment takes to piss you off...) you'd be able to afford a bigger place _and _ go to GenCon?

Regardless, back on topic. How do I beat stupid Bara decks that overextend like mofos, even after Winter Storm with my Targ deck... Add more "climate control?" Carrion Bird plus a recycling Rhaegar's Harp with LDC? Give me wisdom, oh winner of 2 out of 3.

I'm still just working at my security job. And meh. They would've found a reason to fire her. They wanted her gone(I have no idea why) and they were going to do it regardless. I just made it easy for them.

Also, the Harp + Carrion Bird + LDC isn't a bad idea. Althouogh, I doubt it'd help against bara. I'd say you should throw in ITE Ilyn Payne ooh.

Dobbler said:

Staton: Well, perhaps you should be glad that you have different puzzles and can look forward to a few more pieces to help put them together? Lannister right now feels like I was only given one puzzle, and all the pieces were already put together when it was handed to me.

Dobbler: Wow.... thanks for the umm..... "vote of confidence" there on how much my skill factors into my games.