I'm putting together a Veteran of the Long War, with the Crozius and an ability from Dark Apostle. But the Accursed Crozius seems... odd.

Does the base weapon, no daemon, still have the felling (4) from the accursed trait per the weapon table in Excess? I ask because the deathwatch version was 1d10 less damage, and no felling. If so, does that mean that should I put a daemon in it via rituals and it gets the accursed trait, would the felling stack or just stick? Also, would it get up that extra 1d10?

Just trying to make sure I don't cheese any rules.

Alright, ignoring the regular tirade of mine about hating Advanced Archetypes and oh god starting with a Near-Unique Accursed Crozius, oh god.

*cough*

By RAW, reading the description and the table listing the Accursed Crozius in Tome of Excess, it would seem that yes, the Accursed Crozius does have Felling (4).

And as far as Daemon Weapons go, the effects are added upon the pre-existing modifiers, making the Accursed Crozius 3d10+6 with Felling (8).

Given that FFG is notoriously terrible at doing Erratas and Black Crusade seeming pretty much over (after creaming out a half-assed Tome of Decay that tries to force all the endgame content in, even if it meant breaking the "Tome of <Chaos God>" mold) I don't expect it to be fixed anytime soon.

I'm convinced that it's a mistake, and the Tome of Excess Accursed Crozius listed in the table is a Daemon Weapon, and if I was the GM, I'd take that 1d10 off the top and remove the Felling (4), but by RAW, there's nothing saying it's the daemon version listed.

Had the same idea about Vet and Crozius since it's the ONLY* decent thing you can do with that **** vet!

His "hate everyone" ability work great with the crozius. I don't care if it's not possessed when a character starts with it, aslong as I can swing harder with it the more bitter and spitefull i get. It's very thematic for a veteran of the long war.

My take on the rarity is that it's the "daemon included" version that's near unique. If a dark apostle can start the game with one, than so can my vet.

* Whats the point of making a death guard vet when you can just play a plaguemarine and get all their skills/weapons rather than one?

That info works, I'll swing it past my GM to be sure on what we're doing.

Thanks!

By RAW, reading the description and the table listing the Accursed Crozius in Tome of Excess, it would seem that yes, the Accursed Crozius does have Felling (4).

And as far as Daemon Weapons go, the effects are added upon the pre-existing modifiers, making the Accursed Crozius 3d10+6 with Felling (8).

Given that FFG is notoriously terrible at doing Erratas...

You're over thinking it.

The profile in the armoury in ToE includes any additional benefits from the Daemonic attributes. That would be the Felling (4) and extra 1d10 damage from Accursed. That means the base Crozius is 1d10+6 Pen 7, no Felling (and doesn't provide a force field or Unnatural Willpower.

It's a simple process of elimination. That does "Accursed" do? Adds +1d10 Damage and Felling (4). What does the Accursed Crozius profile include? 2d10 Damage and Felling (4). Therefore, if you remove one from the other...

A little maths goes a long way.

BYE

Alright, ignoring the regular tirade of mine about hating Advanced Archetypes and oh god starting with a Near-Unique Accursed Crozius, oh god.

Again, over thinking. Near Unique is the full Daemon Weapon version. The one the Archetype starts with is very plainly stated not to be that weapon, hence it losing all special attributes gained via Daemonic attributes.

BYE

By RAW, reading the description and the table listing the Accursed Crozius in Tome of Excess, it would seem that yes, the Accursed Crozius does have Felling (4).

And as far as Daemon Weapons go, the effects are added upon the pre-existing modifiers, making the Accursed Crozius 3d10+6 with Felling (8).

Given that FFG is notoriously terrible at doing Erratas...

You're over thinking it.

The profile in the armoury in ToE includes any additional benefits from the Daemonic attributes. That would be the Felling (4) and extra 1d10 damage from Accursed. That means the base Crozius is 1d10+6 Pen 7, no Felling (and doesn't provide a force field or Unnatural Willpower.

It's a simple process of elimination. That does "Accursed" do? Adds +1d10 Damage and Felling (4). What does the Accursed Crozius profile include? 2d10 Damage and Felling (4). Therefore, if you remove one from the other...

A little maths goes a long way.

BYE

You have a leg up on me here, you being a writer - and for all I know, you wrote the section - and like I did make very clear, I think this is a mistake, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that my interpretation of RAW isn't, well, RAW.

You say that the profile in the armoury of ToE includes any additional benefits from the Daemonic attributes, and like I said, I think this to be true, but by RAW, there is nothing at all to suggest that. There is no reason to believe, on a rules as written level, that the listed profile includes any additional benefits from the Daemonic attributes.

The listed profile for an Accursed Crozius is:

2d10+6, Pen 7; Balanced, Concussive (0), Felling (4), Power Field.

If we assume that it was a daemon weapon, the profile without it becomes:

1d10+1, Pen 2; Balanced, Concussive (0), Power Field.

If we assume that the listed profile is not a daemon weapon, the profile as one would become:

3d10+11, Pen 12; Balanced, Concussive (0), Felling (8), Power Field.

Meanwhile the profile of a Crozius Arcanum in Deathwatch was:

1d10+7, Pen 7; Balanced, Power Field.

No matter how we cut it, someone screwed up the tables in Tome of Excess, and by RAW, there is nothing at all suggesting that it's anything other than a non-daemonic weapon. The description even goes on to say:

It can also be acquired as a Daemon Weapon with a Willpower of 50 and a Binding Strength of 2. It then has the Accursed, Commanding Presence, and Impervious attributes (see page 198 of the Black Crusade Core Rulebook).

A little reading comprehension goes a long way. It's not a "simple process of elimination". Just because a weapon has certain characteristics that may be granted as a daemon weapon doesn't mean that it's a daemon weapon, and that you undemonize it by removing those characteristics.

There's published adventures that feature daemon weapons that, if you "undemonize" them, end up with negative modifiers that shouldn't exist. Mistakes happen, all the time, and reverse-engineering things doesn't necessarily make it right, it merely points out the flaws.

If anyone is overthinking it, it's you. I believe it's really as simple as someone screwing up, and the RAW being messed up as a result. I believe the intent was to use the statline for the Crozius Arcanum, add the Concussive (0) quality for two-handed use as per Black Crusade, and then make that a daemon weapon - the writer just forgot to add the +5 Dmg & Pen, and then forgot to mention that the listed profile was a daemon weapon.

If we assume that this was the intent, the listed profiles should be:

Accursed Crozius (Unpossessed)

1d10+7, Pen 7; Balanced, Concussive (0), Power Field.

Accursed Crozius (Daemonic)

2d10+11, Pen 12; Balanced, Concussive (0), Felling (4), Power Field, Special.

(Special: Commanding Presence, Impervious, Cannot use Defensive Stance against it, user gains Hatred against foes).

Alright, ignoring the regular tirade of mine about hating Advanced Archetypes and oh god starting with a Near-Unique Accursed Crozius, oh god.

Again, over thinking. Near Unique is the full Daemon Weapon version. The one the Archetype starts with is very plainly stated not to be that weapon, hence it losing all special attributes gained via Daemonic attributes.

BYE

I'm starting to think that the reason we're four books into Black Crusade since the last Errata, with outstanding issues still in the Core Rulebook itself, is not because FFG is notoriously bad at erratas, but because of an adamant refusal to admit that mistakes happen at all and a failure to recognize issues.

Yes, but the profile in the listing shows the Daemonic Attributes, so the implication that its profile includes those attributes (the extra 1d10 Damage, and the Felling (4) Special Quality). Saying that it has that already, and then adds a further 1d10 Damage and becomes Felling (8) is wishful thinking at best.

BYE

Yes, but the profile in the listing shows the Daemonic Attributes , so the implication that its profile includes those attributes (the extra 1d10 Damage, and the Felling (4) Special Quality). Saying that it has that already, and then adds a further 1d10 Damage and becomes Felling (8) is wishful thinking at best.

BYE

Based on what do you infer this?

Hah. It's a wonder that this is only a second time this topic comes up. Since the Fgdsfg is absolutely right on that account. Quite a lot of people can think that this is a non-possessed version, since there is nothing saying otherwise.

Personally, I think that needs to be errated as quickly as possible. Just throw in the DW Crozius Profile and fix the Daemon Weapon to have 2d10+12 12 and be done with it. Fair enough it would be.