Hey guys, I have an interesting problem player. While he's an okay roleplayer (talented but unsure of how to conduct himself) the guy has like, no survival instinct. His first character, a cleric, was in (I think) 3 battles. In each of them, he ran screaming with his hammer across open ground towards people with assault rifles. Each time ended the same, with him being reduced to critical wounds and hitting the dirt. The final time, his character was killed, but he elected not to burn a fate point as "this guy sucks, all he does is get killed". Well, I'm not sure it's the character design's fault if you love to end encounters 3m away from men with guns...

So now he has a new character, a nobleborn adept, who's incredibly useful to the group due to having a ship (not warp capable) and of course, lore skills etc. He uses a chamelioline cloak and generally keeps a low-profile, assuming the appearance of an unarmed businessperson. The ship was boarded by assassins dressed as port inspectors, who turn hostile upon confirming that the cell is from the inquisition. A firefight breaks out, while this PC is standing near the attackers, who I've made it quite clear don't see him as a threat. He then breaks cover and attacks one, uselessly, with his sword, and is shredded by the return fire. Cue burning fate point...

I'm seeing this as being a recurring theme, and while I can have Attackers ignore him, he keeps throwing himself into danger. I'm thinking of just giving him a serpentine and/or some kind of seriously killy pistol just so he has a chance of eliminating his enemies before they kill him. Painfully. This player won't respond well to tactical advice given OOC, and well, he's not taking the hint IC...

Suggestions?

This is what we call Darwinism. They want him out of the gene pool.

Get him to play a psyker with catch projectiles. Its the only way for him to survive. He obviously has an action hero complex and if multiple character deaths havent smartened him up, im not sure what will.

Varius said:

Awesome post. Personally though, I'd just continue as is. He'll either eventually get the point, or, he'll probably leave from frustration. That's only my opinion though.

You may want to point out to the player (very explicitly) that DH is a lethal system, that punishes characters that think they're bulletproof, and as a result, he should think about his options carefully.

I've had a similar problem playing WFRP, and I dealt with it by allowing the NPCs Ulric's Fury (the WFRP equivalent of Righteous Fury), and running them through a one-shot with pre-gen characters. Having a snotling take out a late-4th career Champion (Berserker-Mercenary-Veteran-Champion) in one hit did kind of bring it home. I followed the lesson up by giving the player a drumstick, and taking a longsword myself, and asking him the best way of taking me out (in real life).

Ideally, you need to make the character feel vital to the group, or hell, let his action hero syndrome get him killed.

If he's good at RPing (something my IRL group lacks sadly), then he needs to recognise his place, as an Adept, he is better hiding away with a hand-cannon or something to intimidate his enemies. If he insists on charging with his portable shotgun, refuse to let him burn a fate point to survive. You're the GM, it's fully within your rights to do such a thing.

Having said that, don't be unfair to him, if he offers a rational reasoning for his suicide charge, then let him. If the enemy have a relation to the people who pillaged his hometown, murdered his parents etc, then by all means, let him get to grips with them. Or, browse the Inquisitors Handbook, give him a Moriat Assassin, they can handle themselves in combat but are against using ballistic weaponary. Or even a sororitas....

Wow. That would make me crazy. (I like a stable group for story continuity.)

Honestly, were it me, I would probably sit down and have an OOC chat with the player, and tell him that his constant character flux is causing problems for me. Then I'd ask him why he is always throwing his characters into these poor tactical situations, and ask how I can help him have fun some other way.

It sounds to me like the basic issue is that the player is seriously underestimating the lethality (and realism) of combat in DH. My guess is that they are working from either tactical presuppositions from a less lethal rpg or from a movie action-hero concept. In many rpgs, his moves might have worked. If your character is a melee specialist, charging the enemy is often sound tactical thinking in rpgs that punish you less severely for charging automatic weapons (those which give you a deep hit point cushion for example). Similarly, if you are able to suprise an opponent who has dismissed you as a threat you'd be almost guaranteed a kill in some systems, and expecting him to just stand by as his comrades take a pounding is a big ask.

I suspect your best option is to have a full and frank discussion OOC about exactly what sort of game DH is - ie it is lethal, and you need to be smart, not just heroic, to win. It may be that he can adapt his style of play so that it'll work - recognising that his adept is just not combat-oriented and needs to let the heavy hitters take over. It doesn't sound like he's that happy playing heroic characters who die frequently, so if he can't adapt his style of play you're really down to more serious fixes - either you need to change your games to make them less combat-focused or less lethal (a change which would need to be negotiated with the whole group), or he may need to find a game that suits him better. At the end of the day, not everyone really wants to play their SF as dark as DH.

you can't fix stupid!

But seriously, he was playing 2 of the most fragile characters in the whole game, priest and adept. When the bullets start flying our adepts "assume the possition" which is usually 50m back and under heavy cover. Maybe talk him into playing an actual combat class if he wants to be Mr. Hero.

I'm not sure I know where you're coming from with the idea that clerics are non-combatants: the second hardest character* I've had in any of my DH groups has been a Hive Cleric- a lucky roll for his starting gelt let him get feudal plate and a greathammer, which he almost decided to mono. The guy was a combat monster, and if the armour wasn't much good on non-primitive weapons, his speed and the fact that we were mostly in a hive, meaning brutally short ranges, meant that most guys got at most one round of shooting before he hit them with a Charge Attack, followed by either All Out Attacks or Called Shots to the head. Few of them survived particularly long.

Even an Adept can be quite a good combatant if you're smart with the advancement selections. The problem isn't so much that he's picking the 'weak' careers, but that there seems to be a divergence between the choices he's made within the class (which could have made him quite fighty), and the actions he then makes. I stand by what I said earlier- he needs to be quite explicitly reminded that DH does not reward 'action hero' stupidity. I would however, add to my earlier comment- if he cannot be persuaded to be more circumspect with his courses of action (and continues to play as a traditional D&D fighter/tank-type character), then it may be an idea to give him some coaching and help creating a character that both fits his original concept, and can survive any gung-ho stupidity.

*For reference, the hardest character was a Battlefleet Arbitrator with Hax-Orthlack MkII Combat Carapace, a Fykos Forge 'Flametongue' and an officer's cutlass

Alasseo said:

How more explicit does the GM have to be after having three of the PC's getting killed in short order? At some point it might sink in to try different tactics realizing he is not a Marine in power armor or other character in a book.

Have him try and arbeit or guardsmen if he loves combat so much. At least the he will have more combat skills to work with and practice at making characters.

I agree that DH isn't a system where any character can just adopt the "run in shooting" philosophy. If your Rank 7 Guardsman runs straight into a line of autogun-wielding gangers, your rank 7 Guardsman is probably going to die.

bogi_khaosa said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I have at least 2 super brutes in my group that can wade into a hail of gunfire and eat grenades for breakfast. A guy with armor 6 all around, 4 Toughness bonus and about 14-15 HP wielding a bolter seems like a pretty decent tank to me. The other one is a Moritat reaper assasin that can almost always run and dodge her way into close combat using Hard to Hit and an amazing agility bonus. Then just tears people up with 2 poisoned monoswords. There is just no way one of the utility classes can even get close to matching them by mid levels. Especially if they are not gimping their specialty areas like lore and tech.

You can't get these characters overnight though. I remember when the assasin was low level she was near death after every encounter. But as they progress they can become absolutely brutal fighters.

After some consideration, I'm giving this sod a refractor field, and will manipulate events so that he's going to be a big hero next session, and give him an extra fate point.

I would just tell him to make a gaurdsmen or a Tech-preist with a very high end ballistic Mechandrite and some light power armour if he dosent get his stupid self killed too soon

Make him a tech priest combat type or something, I'm playing one at the moment in an online game with a friend. I have a breaching rig from IH and a Strength of 68 Weapon skill is 49 or something, but if I manage to hit anything I deal 1D10+5+6 rending damage and roll 2 dice for Righteous Fury. I also have 2 weapon wielder melee allowing me to use my Mono-sword to parry any weapons before cracking the enemies skull open. Not the most subtle of Acolytes, but if I run into a heretic....They are all but dead. I also have a Bolt Pistol on a Ballistic Mechandrite.

Outfit him with stuff like that, it'll satisfy his craving to be a tough guy who rips people apart in close combat but he'll also be a valuable addition to the team, since he's a tech priest an' all.

I'm not making him any new class, since his adept character is still alive (and has important lore skills that the group would otherwise flounder without).

The plan is to keep his current character alive, by hook or by crook.

(session delayed for a while due to absent players)

Locque said:

The real question to ask yourself at this point is why reward the player for being a doofus? What your giving them is a pretty high end piece of tech for essentially making some really bad decisions... Man I wish that worked in my group.

Yes, why reward stupidity?

It's supposed to be its own reward anyway

My 4 gold thrones:

What about running a mock fight (just one combat), between you (w/a NPC fighter-type) & him or, him & the best fighter in the group? Maybe it'll drive home the pros & cons of his tactics & the system's lethality.

Everytime he tries to do something that no sane person (but, in the W40K universe, what is sane?) would do (ie. running into a barrage of assault rifle fire, trying to take an unsheated powersword barehanded or some such nonsense) have him roll a Fear check/WP test to see if his PC would do it.

Also you may want to check his backstory to see if his actions are being r-played according to his background (if he comes from a savage, warrior/macho culture he may be playing his PC right, after all!). If not, then tell him to write his personality/background accordingly (or else he's insane)!

Otherwise, have a vote to see if his behaviour bothers the other group memebers too. Maybe they can convince him to think before acting - or they'll kick him out & you won't have to shoulder the burden.

Hope that helps

L

Who?

Locque said:

Wont that cause problems with players who have been playing properly?

The participant's ribbon is a refractor field and a fate point. Gold silver and bronze get a medal.

If the player doesnt have the sense to stay alive, he dies. He will be your group's redshirt, everyone has one.

I know it seems foolish to reward stupidity in this guy's case, but trust me, it's one of those situations where real life won't interfere with the game. As long as this guy is kept happy, he won't disrupt the gaming group by throwing a tantrum. Secondly, while he's an idiot in tactical combat, he's done seriously good things while being involved in actual rp bits, like interacting with other characters,

Locque said:

If that's the case then have an out of Game discussion with him about the tactics that he's using, how they aren't working very well, and (as an Adept) he would be able to learn from those errors in judgement and utilize tactic more appropriate for his career. My group was amazed when the Adept (and team leader) crouched behind a low brick wall and killed three bad guys using Aim, taking cover (to avoid being shot) and basically using the in-game situation modifiers to his advantage. Thos modifiers are the game breakers btw. They really pump up your ability to lay out pain when used properly.

Illithidelderbrain said:

While I was reluctant to do so, I think this might be the smart move to make. There will have to be serious kid gloves involved, but It does mean less crying all round.

I have an idea. How about instead of getting him killed in one of his suicidal charges you get him captured. Once captured the other players have to go to great lengths to rescue him. During this time, give the suicidal player an npc to use but tell him that this one only has one life and no fate points.

Maybe this will make him see more sense, while making the other players in your group try and tone down his heroic actions because he has inconvenienced them

It depends on the person but i can't see talking to him about tactics working. If i talked to my tricky player about tactics, i think he would just do it more

I'm in agreement with Varius on this one... Give him a red shirt.