I recently heard this described in another thread and it got me thinking.

First let me define the term. A Shark has not had major changes in evolution for billions of years. The slight changes have slowly made it more an more perfect for its biological niche.

A Shark list is a list that a player has been been playing and refining for a long time. They came up with the basic idea a while ago and have been doing two things since then. One making small tweeks, and two practicing with it a lot.

I first encountered one of these lists are a tournament about a year ago. It was a Chewy and Lando double Falcon list. It smashed its way through most of the tournament. When I faced it, I was trounced. It wasn't because the ships were OP but because the player had found a good list, tweaked it into its best possible version of itself and then really knew how to fly it.

That tournament left a sour taste in my mouth, but when I realized what he had done I couldn't really blamed him.

I am a casual player. I don't get a ton of time to play. I spent about 10 times more time on the forums talking about than I get to actually play. When I do, my primary motivation is to have fun. I almost always try something new each time. I don't think it is reasonable to expect me to be able to compete consistently with players who simply play that much more competitively than I do. In any game of skill the more committed players (committed to winning) should win. I guess it is a good thing that they do in X-wing.

Even so, I would still like to beat them.

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve. There are cards currently and releasing that are "Hard Counters" to it, but how much are those cards played compared to the number of opponents at a tournament. Biggest exception would be Phantoms, which can definitely be beaten by the Swarm if it modifies its tactics. And that's where I think it has changed. There will be at least one TIE Swarm at every major tournament you ever play in X-wing. The Contents of that TIE Swarm most often consist of Howlrunner and six Academy Pilots, with some points remaining for upgrades or promotions to named TIEs. Beyond that, where TIE Swarm must evolve is how it is played against lists that can exploit its advantages. Form new strategies in flying a list that is powerful and versatile.

As Frank and Alex said in their interview, it is a monster, has always been and will always be. It just doesn't NEED to evolve that much.

It has been powerful since Wave 1 and is arguably less powerful than it was in the early days, but is definitely here to stay.

Swarm Pilots are great examples of these types of lists. The list itself changes very little, but the player who have been flying since the beginning have invested huge amounts of time in the list and they can make it do amazing things.

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve. There are cards currently and releasing that are "Hard Counters" to it, but how much are those cards played compared to the number of opponents at a tournament. Biggest exception would be Phantoms, which can definitely be beaten by the Swarm if it modifies its tactics. And that's where I think it has changed. There will be at least one TIE Swarm at every major tournament you ever play in X-wing. The Contents of that TIE Swarm most often consist of Howlrunner and six Academy Pilots, with some points remaining for upgrades or promotions to named TIEs. Beyond that, where TIE Swarm must evolve is how it is played against lists that can exploit its advantages. Form new strategies in flying a list that is powerful and versatile.

As Frank and Alex said in their interview, it is a monster, has always been and will always be. It just doesn't NEED to evolve that much.

It has been powerful since Wave 1 and is arguably less powerful than it was in the early days, but is definitely here to stay.

I actually don't think I've seen anything that is a hard counter. Lots and lots of soft counters, which are generally healthier anyway.

On the original topic, miniature games have basically always lent themselves to consistency. I've seen it in nearly any mini game I've played. Much as folks some times prefer to flock to the new hawtness or the new brokeness, someone with a stable list, the knowledge of its ins and outs and the instincts to make decisions quickly will most often win out over them.

Personally, I think this is actually heightened in X-Wing over previous games I've played. You gain a lot from knowing how far things can move, ranges, and likely maneuvers, all things that come easier with experience.

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve...it is a monster, has always been and will always be. It just doesn't NEED to evolve that much.

There are a few times that the TIE Swarm needs to adapt.

One person in my local meta found his niche in running 5 Headhunters (4 of the level 4 13 pointers, and Lieutenant Blount), with Munitions Failsafe (on everyone but Blount) and 5x Assault Missiles (which I rather think can be a shark list in its own right).

I was forced to either fly my swarm in an entirely novel way (knowing how to keep my TIEs out of Range 1 of each other, while still bearing guns at a single target until I am in Range 1 of the enemy fleet is beyond me at the moment), or adjust my list (I sacrificed Howlrunner and an academy pilot in favor of Kagi).

Either adjustment is an evolution.

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve...it is a monster, has always been and will always be. It just doesn't NEED to evolve that much.

There are a few times that the TIE Swarm needs to adapt.

One person in my local meta found his niche in running 5 Headhunters (4 of the level 4 13 pointers, and Lieutenant Blount), with Munitions Failsafe (on everyone but Blount) and 5x Assault Missiles (which I rather think can be a shark list in its own right).

I was forced to either fly my swarm in an entirely novel way (knowing how to keep my TIEs out of Range 1 of each other, while still bearing guns at a single target until I am in Range 1 of the enemy fleet is beyond me at the moment), or adjust my list (I sacrificed Howlrunner and an academy pilot in favor of Kagi).

Either adjustment is an evolution.

As new opponents reach the table, new strategies must follow, even with tried and true lists. But the framework of Howlrunner and six escorts had always and is still played.

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve. There are cards currently and releasing that are "Hard Counters" to it, but how much are those cards played compared to the number of opponents at a tournament. Biggest exception would be Phantoms, which can definitely be beaten by the Swarm if it modifies its tactics. And that's where I think it has changed. There will be at least one TIE Swarm at every major tournament you ever play in X-wing. The Contents of that TIE Swarm most often consist of Howlrunner and six Academy Pilots, with some points remaining for upgrades or promotions to named TIEs. Beyond that, where TIE Swarm must evolve is how it is played against lists that can exploit its advantages. Form new strategies in flying a list that is powerful and versatile.

I agree that the TIE Swarm is the ultimate shark list. However, I can't say that I've seen it be as prevalent in the meta around me. I think I've only really seen it played once, and it didn't make it close to the top table. I'm not saying that my observation is representative or that yours is wrong, but it'd be interesting to find out how prevalent that TIE Swarm is, especially since the emergence of the Phantom.

Maybe it's the case that the Phantom is being eclipsed by the Fat Falcon, and this will cause the TIE Swarm to emerge again from hiding in my local scene. I'd contemplate bringing it myself, if I owned that many TIE Fighters. (Actually, very soon I will, but that's another story.) However, it just kind of feels 'dirty' to use an unoriginal list like that.

That's what I liked about flying bombers. I was the only one flying them, and I flew them quite a lot. That was my shark list, I suppose. But then just got my rear end handed to me quite royally at a tournament and decided to try something new.

There is a guy in my scene who really specializes in B-Wings. I'd call him a shark-list player.

This is what I want to do with HWKs. I know that sounds utterly insane. But with Scum coming out there might actually be a lot I can do to really get an HWK-specific list going. Who knows.

In lieu of that, I've always wanted to focus on the dingys. The nonspecifics. Y-Wings, Z-95s, HWKs. So Scum may just really be the faction for me.

This is what I want to do with HWKs. I know that sounds utterly insane. But with Scum coming out there might actually be a lot I can do to really get an HWK-specific list going. Who knows.

In lieu of that, I've always wanted to focus on the dingys. The nonspecifics. Y-Wings, Z-95s, HWKs. So Scum may just really be the faction for me.

I hear you. There's something about sticking up for the underdog ships. Unfortunately, there's also a reason that they're the underdog ships.

This is what I want to do with HWKs. I know that sounds utterly insane. But with Scum coming out there might actually be a lot I can do to really get an HWK-specific list going. Who knows.

In lieu of that, I've always wanted to focus on the dingys. The nonspecifics. Y-Wings, Z-95s, HWKs. So Scum may just really be the faction for me.

I hear you. There's something about sticking up for the underdog ships. Unfortunately, there's also a reason that they're the underdog ships.

True that, though I've always had a knack with underestimated things. Most of my kills in SWTOR were with a bomber.

...Mostly because people didn't expect someone to dogfight in one.

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve...it is a monster, has always been and will always be. It just doesn't NEED to evolve that much.

There are a few times that the TIE Swarm needs to adapt.

I was forced to either fly my swarm in an entirely novel way (knowing how to keep my TIEs out of Range 1 of each other, while still bearing guns at a single target until I am in Range 1 of the enemy fleet is beyond me at the moment),

The traditional TIE swarm does need to adapt to the Wave 4 meta, specifically Phantoms. Too many people believe that a TIE swarm cannot beat a Phantom, and I disagree with them. A TIE swarm can beat a Phantom, you just have to fly it differently. You cannot expect to fly in a little block in formation around the board and expect a Phantom to be in your firing arc all game long. So you have to adapt your playstyle. One of the adaptations that I have devised can be found here:

http://teamcovenant.com/hothie/2014/10/05/the-death-blossom/

To Dracon, I say figure out how to spread out while still being focused. Or you can try to gauge where outside of Rage 3 will be on first engagement, then go 5 fwd so that you're in range 1 of him. Maybe fly in pairs to minimize the effects of the splash. Also keep in mind, Assault Missiles without focus or rerolls tend to not hit vs AG3 targets. I know Blount is auto hit, but the rest need focus in order to hit, generally.

As new opponents reach the table, new strategies must follow, even with tried and true lists. But the framework of Howlrunner and six escorts had always and is still played.

True to a point, but how it is played is what makes the difference. See above.

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve. There are cards currently and releasing that are "Hard Counters" to it, but how much are those cards played compared to the number of opponents at a tournament. Biggest exception would be Phantoms, which can definitely be beaten by the Swarm if it modifies its tactics. And that's where I think it has changed. There will be at least one TIE Swarm at every major tournament you ever play in X-wing. The Contents of that TIE Swarm most often consist of Howlrunner and six Academy Pilots, with some points remaining for upgrades or promotions to named TIEs. Beyond that, where TIE Swarm must evolve is how it is played against lists that can exploit its advantages. Form new strategies in flying a list that is powerful and versatile.

I agree that the TIE Swarm is the ultimate shark list. However, I can't say that I've seen it be as prevalent in the meta around me. I think I've only really seen it played once, and it didn't make it close to the top table. I'm not saying that my observation is representative or that yours is wrong, but it'd be interesting to find out how prevalent that TIE Swarm is, especially since the emergence of the Phantom.

Maybe it's the case that the Phantom is being eclipsed by the Fat Falcon, and this will cause the TIE Swarm to emerge again from hiding in my local scene. I'd contemplate bringing it myself, if I owned that many TIE Fighters. (Actually, very soon I will, but that's another story.) However, it just kind of feels 'dirty' to use an unoriginal list like that.

I pretty much always run lists that I create that I think will fit my playstyle. But lately I have been trying to evolve the shark. I am playing TIE swarms, and I'm coming up with new ways to fly them and still be effective in this Wave 4 meta. It doesn't feel dirty to me running a Wave 1-2 list and coming up with new and different ways to fly it. I'm currently working on my "Drunken Shark" opening that provides maximum flexibility to fly wherever i want to go.

So, I encourage you to run whatever you want to run, but learn new strategies and tactics for flying it against different lists.

Shark lists can also adapt here and there as new upgrades and options become available (I know that technically makes them no longer a shark list, but I mean to say that it is possible to adapt them slightly here and there without losing what made them effective for so long in a skilled player's practiced hands). One of my former preferred swarm builds was Howlrunner + Stealth, Backstabber, two Obsidians, and three Academies. Over time, I have evolved to a stance of offense being the best defense in this game, so when wave 4 dropped I started sticking Predator on Howlrunner instead to great results.

In terms of switching up formations to account for a Phantom or Fat Han build, one of my favorite tactics is a throat hug maneuver with three strong units that can collapse on the enemy wherever they are coming at you. Examples I enjoy include Howl + Swarm Tactics and 3x AP in one unit up the middle, Backstabber on one side of the board, and a Sigma + SPA on the other. Howl + ST, Mauler + ST, and 2x AP in a middle unit with Backstabber and an Omicron as the side pieces is also fun and effective. My Colorado Regional squad was based on this premise, with Vader + Homing Missile + VI as my Whisper killer (sadly no Phantoms were encountered that day, but in testing it was extremely effective and often pulled off a one-shot).

Really, I think the keys are to think ahead about what you are facing, and then be unpredictable in your tactics (like rolling out something like a Death Blossom ).

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve...it is a monster, has always been and will always be. It just doesn't NEED to evolve that much.

There are a few times that the TIE Swarm needs to adapt.

I was forced to either fly my swarm in an entirely novel way (knowing how to keep my TIEs out of Range 1 of each other, while still bearing guns at a single target until I am in Range 1 of the enemy fleet is beyond me at the moment),

The traditional TIE swarm does need to adapt to the Wave 4 meta, specifically Phantoms. Too many people believe that a TIE swarm cannot beat a Phantom, and I disagree with them. A TIE swarm can beat a Phantom, you just have to fly it differently. You cannot expect to fly in a little block in formation around the board and expect a Phantom to be in your firing arc all game long. So you have to adapt your playstyle. One of the adaptations that I have devised can be found here:

http://teamcovenant.com/hothie/2014/10/05/the-death-blossom/

To Dracon, I say figure out how to spread out while still being focused. Or you can try to gauge where outside of Rage 3 will be on first engagement, then go 5 fwd so that you're in range 1 of him. Maybe fly in pairs to minimize the effects of the splash. Also keep in mind, Assault Missiles without focus or rerolls tend to not hit vs AG3 targets. I know Blount is auto hit, but the rest need focus in order to hit, generally.

As new opponents reach the table, new strategies must follow, even with tried and true lists. But the framework of Howlrunner and six escorts had always and is still played.

True to a point, but how it is played is what makes the difference. See above.

TIE Swarm doesn't really need to evolve. There are cards currently and releasing that are "Hard Counters" to it, but how much are those cards played compared to the number of opponents at a tournament. Biggest exception would be Phantoms, which can definitely be beaten by the Swarm if it modifies its tactics. And that's where I think it has changed. There will be at least one TIE Swarm at every major tournament you ever play in X-wing. The Contents of that TIE Swarm most often consist of Howlrunner and six Academy Pilots, with some points remaining for upgrades or promotions to named TIEs. Beyond that, where TIE Swarm must evolve is how it is played against lists that can exploit its advantages. Form new strategies in flying a list that is powerful and versatile.

I agree that the TIE Swarm is the ultimate shark list. However, I can't say that I've seen it be as prevalent in the meta around me. I think I've only really seen it played once, and it didn't make it close to the top table. I'm not saying that my observation is representative or that yours is wrong, but it'd be interesting to find out how prevalent that TIE Swarm is, especially since the emergence of the Phantom.

Maybe it's the case that the Phantom is being eclipsed by the Fat Falcon, and this will cause the TIE Swarm to emerge again from hiding in my local scene. I'd contemplate bringing it myself, if I owned that many TIE Fighters. (Actually, very soon I will, but that's another story.) However, it just kind of feels 'dirty' to use an unoriginal list like that.

I pretty much always run lists that I create that I think will fit my playstyle. But lately I have been trying to evolve the shark. I am playing TIE swarms, and I'm coming up with new ways to fly them and still be effective in this Wave 4 meta. It doesn't feel dirty to me running a Wave 1-2 list and coming up with new and different ways to fly it. I'm currently working on my "Drunken Shark" opening that provides maximum flexibility to fly wherever i want to go.

So, I encourage you to run whatever you want to run, but learn new strategies and tactics for flying it against different lists.

You just said everything I was trying to say but way better. I'm glad a world champion agrees with me. It's the strategy and last few cards that change as the game changes in any shark lists. I have seen TIE swarms beat phantoms several times, just not consistently. It is definitely an uphill battle. Wish I could say I was one of those players; I used to play swarm or swarm variants quite often. I can beat phantoms with other lists, and have beaten them with the rebel BXXZZZ swarm, but not with TIE swarm. Not quite the same tier player as you, hothie.

I appreciate the thoughts, though, and like I said, you said what I wadls really trying to get out in two different posts.

Though not really an entire list, Baron Fel with PTL and either Stealth Device (my preferred) or Hull/Shield upgrade (math winger's preferred) is pretty sharky. It is an obvious and effective combination that doesn't need much tweaking. The more I practiced with it the better and better I got at finding new twists and turns and judging where my banks/rolls would take the Baron and the deadlier he got. Unless I was flying against a turreted ship I was getting 3 shots off with him for every one he had to dodge on average, or at least it felt like it. After 12 games with the same unchanged combo my ability to fly it improved. The combo didn't evolve, rather I became more efficient at using it. I figured Fel out, found his niche and tried to find the limits of his potential and how best to fly within and between that and my play style. Going forward I don't predict much need to change him up either; maneuverable flankers with high evade, high attack, and an action advantage will always be useful. That sounds like a shark build to me, at least as you describe the term.

I've been continuing to think about this 'shark list' concept. There are really two types - one is the type of the TIE Swarm, which is a list that exists on its own; one that is recognizable and survivable in many different hands. The other type, which I think the OP is more interested in, is a shark list that exists in the hands of one person; one that is survivable because that person has just learned how to fly that particular list very well, but it otherwise much less effective in anyone else's hands.

I kind of have the urge to go back to my 3-bomber/2 TIEs list and spruce it up with a new load of ordnance.

I think I definitely do the shark list thing with 3 ace ship rebel builds. I've got well over 100 games in with any of the variants, wedge/biggs+jan/tycho/wes/ten numb/dutch and I have just learned how to fly the list really well. I make tweeks and changes based on the meta and new updates that are helpful, but the concept stays very much the same.

And I do this for any game. I will have a favorite character, or gun, or whatever that I can always come back to if need be, but I spend about half my time breaking away and experimenting with different things.

Eventually you become comfortable enough with your own list that you can focus exclusively on what you think your opponent will do and how to beat them. Since you are doing less thinking then they are, you are less prone to mistakes, and therefore win more games.

Less moving parts=less prone to error and all that.