The only flaw with the above argument is that xwing doesnt have a 1:270 scale, its got a variable scale depending on size of the ship.

So i can see why if you make the huge ships 1:144 or whatever to make them work on the table it makes sense to enlarge the smaller ships for the same reason.

It also makes no sense for A-Wings to be that small. They're faster and tougher than TIE Fighters - if A-Wings can be that small why can't TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, etc?

The only flaw with the above argument is that xwing doesnt have a 1:270 scale, its got a variable scale depending on size of the ship.

That's not true. All ships other then the 2 Epic ships are 1:270, based on the stats LFL provided to FFG. You have 2 and only 2 ships that use a variable scale, the GR-75 and CR-90. The X-Wing, Y-Wing, Phantom, Defender, Falcon, Slave 1, ect... Are all 1:270 scale and correct size based on the numbers LFL considers canon.

Now again one can debate the numbers LFL uses, but the idea that FFG doesn't stick to a single consistent scale for all the fighters in the game is simply untrue.

The problem with the image above, is it's based on a single model that may or may not even be the correct size in the first place. Again I point to the Falcon cockpit image a few pages back that is clearly not the correct size. So we can't know that model is actually "life sized" or not, or may be smaller because they could make it look right and save money.

Fiction is not reality.

A-Wings are not real.

The movie images are all created to serve the story, serve the action, not to create a sense of scale. Inconsistency is the only constant. Movie making was very different 30 years ago. Even 15 years ago when TPM was made.

Going forward LFL has decided on a constant size for fictional A-Wings. It's the size FFG made them in the game.

If the movies were historical footage of a real thing, maybe there would be a valid point here. But it's all fiction. The keepers of the fiction have set the size to a value, and FFG used that value. They didn't get anything wrong at all.

The only flaw with the above argument is that xwing doesnt have a 1:270 scale, its got a variable scale depending on size of the ship.

That's not true. All ships other then the 2 Epic ships are 1:270, based on the stats LFL provided to FFG. You have 2 and only 2 ships that use a variable scale, the GR-75 and CR-90. The X-Wing, Y-Wing, Phantom, Defender, Falcon, Slave 1, ect... Are all 1:270 scale and correct size based on the numbers LFL considers canon.

Now again one can debate the numbers LFL uses, but the idea that FFG doesn't stick to a single consistent scale for all the fighters in the game is simply untrue.

The problem with the image above, is it's based on a single model that may or may not even be the correct size in the first place. Again I point to the Falcon cockpit image a few pages back that is clearly not the correct size. So we can't know that model is actually "life sized" or not, or may be smaller because they could make it look right and save money.

I can see a circular argument here. Unless you're blind you can see that a Y wing and an A wing in this game are *not* in scale with each other. They might fit the ever shifting canon but its not what you see on the screen.

Fiction is not reality.

A-Wings are not real.

What!

HERESY!!!

I can't believe you're saying that now, after all this.

Check this film still out.

*tiny* cockpit

No way is this cockpit represented 'in scale' on the model. LFLs measurements are clearly out.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/14/article-0-1682AF48000005DC-314_634x286.jpg

The problem with the image above, is it's based on a single model that may or may not even be the correct size in the first place. Again I point to the Falcon cockpit image a few pages back that is clearly not the correct size. So we can't know that model is actually "life sized" or not, or may be smaller because they could make it look right and save money.

The keepers of the fiction have set the size to a value, and FFG used that value. They didn't get anything wrong at all.

And again, stop being so defensive of FFG, nobody's bitching and calling them names or anything. We're bitching and calling GL and Disney names, but who could object to that?

I think it's time this debate turned to food.

It also makes no sense for A-Wings to be that small. They're faster and tougher than TIE Fighters - if A-Wings can be that small why can't TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors, etc?

Because A-wings were constructed from terribly expensive high performance components compared to TIEs. Simple scale of cost versus size and/or performance and durability.

They might fit the ever shifting canon but its not what you see on the screen.

Again we then have to accept that there's two different scales then.

Movie scale vs Canon scale. Canon scale being what ever LFL says it is, because that's how canon works. They decide what the proper size of an A-Wing is, and that's all there is too it.

If LFL says a A-Wing is 9.6m and a Y-Wing is 16m, then if FFG makes the models the correct size at 1:270 based on that, then they are the correct canon size.

But take that image you had where someone measured it... That size is based on the assumption that the model is the correct size in the first place. Which is something we can't actually know, unless ILM or someone else says so. Perhaps that was an undersized model compared to how big an A-Wing is supposed to be?

Going back to Canon vs Movie... We have two apparently conflicting options. One is the canon measurements published by LFL. The other is based on images from the movies, that are often not even consistent between the movies.

To me the ships look good on the table and so I'm happy. But again even if I wasn't it's not like I have any say over it. FFG made them the size LFL told them to make them, and this was before Disney bought Star Wars. So they are very much in the correct scale based on the canon size LFL decided to use.

I'm not sure how else you can define scale... Because every ship in the game other then the epics does in fact fit the canon measurements at 1:270. So regardless of what you see on the screen they are in scale to each other based official size given.

Well, this comes back to what you consider canon.

Canon is not something that is subject to debate, it's a well defined term. Canon is what ever the IP owner says it is, and that also is not subject to debate. Head-Canon is more or less a contradiction in therms, because there can not be more then one established canon.

Canon may not be consistent, but being consistent isn't part of the definition of canon, otherwise the term retcon wouldn't exist...

Movie scale vs Canon scale. Canon scale being what ever LFL says it is, because that's how canon works. They decide what the proper size of an A-Wing is, and that's all there is too it.

That's not how it works. Movie evidence takes priority over some author later deciding to put an incorrect number on the official website. LFL can say whatever it wants, but the movies clearly show that they are wrong.

If LFL says a A-Wing is 9.6m and a Y-Wing is 16m, then if FFG makes the models the correct size at 1:270 based on that, then they are the correct canon size.

Kind of like how LFL said the Executor was 8km long based on some old RPG book and used that as their official length, until fan lobbying got them to change it to ~16km based on indisputable film evidence that the 8km number was wrong? LFL can say that an a-wing is 9.6m long and a y-wing is 16m long, but that just means that LFL is wrong and needs to fix their numbers.

But take that image you had where someone measured it... That size is based on the assumption that the model is the correct size in the first place. Which is something we can't actually know, unless ILM or someone else says so. Perhaps that was an undersized model compared to how big an A-Wing is supposed to be?

You're missing the point of how the scaling works. It isn't just "the film model was X length", it's comparing the length of the model relative to the pilot. We know that the a-wing pilot is a normal human, which lets us determine how big the ship around the pilot is. The only way to argue against this scaling would be to claim that this particular a-wing model has incorrect proportions (cockpit is too small, etc) but that's obviously false since all of the other a-wings have the same proportions.

Also, this isn't just one a-wing model that might not be the right size. The ship model and the cockpit set used in the interior shots agree (within a reasonable margin of error) on a small a-wing. This isn't a mistake with one particular model, it's a deliberate choice to make the a-wing a tiny fighter.

Look honesty i'm not that bothered. If i was i would not have bought two copies of rebel aces this evening if i was that upset the A wings are oversized (cos they like totally *are* )

It was just a musing, i really did not expect anyone to get that angry about it.

As an aside, my chum who has written for FFG popped over to loan me a horus heresy book this afternoon, i mentioned it to him and he said 'yeah totally not to scale'. But then like i say we're used to it working with 40k where nothing is to scale. Its *nominally* about 1/48 but some stuff is 1/35!

I totally agree that the *supposed* scale of xwing is 1:270 with huge ships being half that but in reality its a bit off. Like is say its probably for the best as , as others have mentioned, if A wings were the size *many* people think they should be you'd have to make them two to a blister or recost them.

Essentially even if you were a real martinet about scale you have packaging to consider. What you make has to fit into certain retail blisters. Not a problem is stuff is small but lets say a ship is somewhere between a defender and a falcon (i cant think of anything off hand that would be) and you're looking at a new packaging set that needs making. We had this problem at GW a few times. Stuff that was very cool but wouldnt fit in a blister pack but was too small to merit a box set. (a really cool vampire with huge outstretched wings springs to mind as one example)

I love Y wings and was a bit dissapointed when i got mine. I thought they were a little too 'squashed' in the cockpit area. I deliberately repainted mine with more contrast to make them look a little larger.

The Y-wings always seemed to be the lowest quality of the models in the range. I can tell that one of my Y-wings is a little warped because the symmetry is slightly off. It doesn't effect the game much and I don't want to wait for a replacement so I just deal with it.

I was soooo dissapointed when my two Y wings turned up.

I've always loved them since i had one as a toy as a kid

But the xwing ones were just really 'flat' looking. I personally think my repaint helped a lot in giving them a bit more 'depth'

As an aside, my chum who has written for FFG popped over to loan me a horus heresy book this afternoon, i mentioned it to him and he said 'yeah totally not to scale'. But then like i say we're used to it working with 40k where nothing is to scale. Its *nominally* about 1/48 but some stuff is 1/35!

Different games are different. Star Wars Armada is not to any set scale, that's fine. The ships are all different sizes to make a larger game possible and allow for more capital ships in the game. X-Wing is a fixed scale for the small and large ships, and a slightly sliding scale for the huge ships. One has nothing to do with the other. A Warhammer license has literally nothing to do with X-Wing.

Wow, you're sooo territorial. if it wasnt worrying it would be funny.

You should totally look into herbal tea or valium or something dude

I *understand* that the scale is *supposed* to be fixed... its just clearly not, a child can see that but clearly you're far too partisan.

Clearly a warhammer licence has nothing to do with xwing but working in the scale model industry does....

Anyway this is totally going round in circles. I'll be leaving this now.. have fun wahhhing

As an aside, my chum who has written for FFG popped over to loan me a horus heresy book this afternoon

No offense to your chum... but someone who has done some writing for FFG for a different game my not really know what the design process for X-Wing is. Plus that he's effectively saying that FFG lied when they wrote in the back of the book in the Production Notes section.

For example FFG said "Lucasfilm Ltd. has been extremely generous, allowing us access to behind-the-scenes material and exact dimensional data from the original trilogy, and working tirelessly with us to ensure that our finished product matched the established Star Wars canon."

So which is it? Did they actually use the exact dimensional data from the movies provided to them by LFL, or did they just make it up based on what they thought looked correct?

Why would they make such a big deal about scale and have done so a number of time since then, in the face of such overwhelming evidence?

Would the game really sell that much worse if they said "We stuck to scale as much as we could but the A-Wing was too small so we fudged it."

Now I'll grant that the models in X-Wing may not be consistent with the models in the movie, size wise. But that doesn't change the fact that they are to scale with the canon LFL has established. Especially when you consider that the canon sizes happened as much as 15+ years after the movies...

So is the A-Wing too large? According to established canon no, it's not. It's the correct size 9.6m at 1:270 scale, and every other small and large ship in the game is in fact the correct size for canon.

Does that mean they match up to the movie? Maybe not, but then that's on LFL for getting the size wrong in what they consider canon.

So which is it? Did they actually use the exact dimensional data from the movies provided to them by LFL, or did they just make it up based on what they thought looked correct?

Option 3: LFL provided incorrect information.

Option 4: the statement was made before the a-wing model existed, so FFG's later decision to change the scale of the a-wing doesn't change the fact that they made a significant effort to get the scale of the original ships right.

Why would they make such a big deal about scale and have done so a number of time since then, in the face of such overwhelming evidence?

Because for most ships the scale is correct.

So is the A-Wing too large? According to established canon no, it's not. It's the correct size 9.6m at 1:270 scale, and every other small and large ship in the game is in fact the correct size for canon.

Again, canon is what the movies show. LFL's 9.6m number is simply wrong, just like their 8km length for the Executor was indisputably wrong until they finally changed it to the correct length.

I'm confident that Fantasy Flight Games did the best they did with the material they had, but scale has always been wonky whenever I've tried to model most anything based on "canon" measurements. The A-Wing looks to have a suspiciously roomy cockpit, while the Y-Wing seems to have no room for a 2nd seat. They look like they've been Micro-Machine-ized (i.e., ships pushed toward being about the same size as each other, scale be darned).

In my humble non-canon opinion, the slow and sluggish Y-Wing bomber "should" be larger, and the super-fast and zippy A-Wing "should" be smaller (the latter being comparable in size to the cockpit of the Y), but I have no authoritative source to base it on. I'm just eyeballing it based on the assumption that the pilots should be about the same size, no matter which ship they're flying.

But if I were going about trying to make a game that was going to be doggedly in scale, I'd go to LucasFilm for reference, and if they said they were all the same size ... then, hey, that's what I'd have to go with.

then, hey, that's what I'd have to go with.

That's kinda the point.

If LFL says "These are the official canon sizes of these ships." Then FFG kinda has to go with what they say, regardless of how the ships may look on the screen.

People are more then welcome to say that LFL didn't get it right, but saying that FFG ships are out of scale, well that almost makes me wonder if they are using the same definition scale as I am.

Because to me, scale means that at 1:270... if something is 960cm then proper scale is 3.55cm, at 12.5m the proper scale is 4.62cm, and so on. If every ship is 1:270th the size of what ever size the ship should be, then that means the ships are to the proper scale.

That doesn't mean the "proper size" is going to match up to the movies, but that also doesn't mean that they aren't using the scale consistently.

So if FFG had a list of ship sizes and made their models 1:270th of the size they were given. Then everything is to scale based on the data they were given.

It all really boils down to, what the correct size is. Is it what LFL says it is, or is it what someone thinks it is based on what they see on the screen.

Canon is not something that is subject to debate, it's a well defined term. Canon is what ever the IP owner says it is, and that also is not subject to debate.

Actually, I think you're misusing canon the way a lot of people do in gaming and sci-if/fantasy nerddom. To quote Oxford dictionaries:

• The works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine:

the Shakespeare canon

For me, recognised as genuine does not mean "on a list that someone who 'owns the IP' says is genuine", it means something in the original work of art. What someone "owning IP" says has no bearing on the legitimacy of the art.

If every ship is 1:270th the size of what ever size the ship should be, then that means the ships are to the proper scale.

Exactly, but you're defining "what size the ship should be" based on obviously incorrect size information, not the actual size of the "real" ship. If the model is not 1/270th the length of the "real" model as shown in films then it is not a 1:270 scale a-wing model.

Is it what LFL says it is, or is it what someone thinks it is based on what they see on the screen.

It's not a question of what anyone thinks, it's a question of what the films indisputably show. This is not something that is open to debate, the official length is simply wrong and the IP owner needs to change their numbers.

Just reading this thread makes my head hurt. I mean seriously, the game is supposed to be fun. Play the game or don't but the size of an A-wing doesn't really worth all this.

Just reading this thread makes my head hurt. I mean seriously, the game is supposed to be fun. Play the game or don't but the size of an A-wing doesn't really worth all this.

NO WE ARE ALL NERD PERFECTIONISTS, WE MUST HAVE AN EXACT CONSENSUS ON THE SIZE. THE WORLD STOPS SPINNIG IF WE GET THIS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!

/rant