As much as I love the dice system and the story telling it supports, there are times when it frustrates me to no end. Last night my group was trying to get into a locked door. They kept rolling zero successes and a bunch of advantages. Each time I let them switch up the technique used to open the door. They tried Mechanics, Skuldugery, Computers, and even ripping the door off its hinges. Every check was either average or hard and the players were rolling 3-5 dice each. The successes just wernt coming last night.

My favorite roll of the night was PPPYYYG. The three purples all came up blank. Great, right? Nope. The net result was 0 successes/failure and 5 advantages.

At least the problem was eventually solved by waiting for the person who lived there to come back so they could knock on the door and use social skills to gain entrance. And now we have a joke about how well secured doors on Rebel outposts are constructed.

Anyone else have stories for when the dice just wern't cooperating?

This happens a lot in our group. In fact, the more dice we roll the more like reading a cat's entrails the results seem to get.

I wish they'd put "you can convert 3 Advantages into a Success" in the chart (this isn't a house-rule my group has implemented, I just wish we had).

Here's what I do:

If they really need to get through a door, or to decode a datapad, or to slice a computer, or to convince a thug to talk, etc, to advance the story, then failure doesn't mean they don't do it.

It might just mean they don't do it *ideally*. Perhaps they slice the door and it opens, but it jams and can't be closed again. Or they decode the datapad but it's destroyed and they only got 85% of the information they need. They slice the computer, but the station owner knows where they are. Or the thug talks, but wriggles free of his bonds and escapes, potentially warning their enemy.

Here's what I do:

If they really need to get through a door, or to decode a datapad, or to slice a computer, or to convince a thug to talk, etc, to advance the story, then failure doesn't mean they don't do it.

It might just mean they don't do it *ideally*. Perhaps they slice the door and it opens, but it jams and can't be closed again. Or they decode the datapad but it's destroyed and they only got 85% of the information they need. They slice the computer, but the station owner knows where they are. Or the thug talks, but wriggles free of his bonds and escapes, potentially warning their enemy.

It's called failing forward. They do this a lot in the modules published by FFG.

But more strictly on topic, we DID have a situation in the big season finale of our last storyline where the Outlaw Tech was trying to deactivate the three control towers around a massive machine, to make it overload.

He was evading a droid that was shooting at him at the same time, so it kept getting more and more tense. I think he failed the Mechanics check for one tower like three times!

After that many times I just hand-waved it that he succeeded. I might've made the challenges a bit too high on that one.

It's called failing forward. They do this a lot in the modules published by FFG.

That's where I learned it from, it was kind of a revelation to me in how to manage the difficulties of checks versus the needs of the story.

Anyone else have stories for when the dice just wern't cooperating?

kaosoe is right.

You really need to read this:

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule

Basically, you can *not* have the game stop just because the players can't get past a roadblock, whether that block is information or a door. The most important point is this: failure doesn't mean stopping. It means delay, or other consequences. Maybe it takes them longer to get in, so that once they're inside, *that's* when the occupant returns home early, forcing them to hide, run, or explain. Or somebody sees them and calls the cops.

An alternate way to handle it is to say that they need X successes before succeeding, and maybe allow Advantages to translate into successes. That way they're sure to get in, but it's the timing that matters. The gist of this is: move the challenge away from the thing in their way, and towards "time".

Don't roll if you can't live with the results . This is not a chide but an old GM'ing rule of thumb that can keep you out of situations like this. As others have pointed out if not getting through that door, or past any obstacle, or not getting a critical piece of information is going to slam your plot to a halt then either don't roll or make the roll determine a level of success but no possibility of Failure.

Edit: added "not"... meh grammar.

The dice nonsense is why I'm tempted to shift the line between success and failure from "need at least 1 Success" to "Don't end with any Failure".

I've run some test rolls (around 500 so far) and the only area it really impacts is combat damage. But as it increases it on both sides, I'm not sure it's a terrible change (though it is slightly in the favor of the PCs).

Adding to the "Plot > Rolling" points, if it's really important to the story and grinds the campaign to a halt until bypassed, then it should be bypassed.

Often times I've noticed that GMs tend to ignore advantages and disadvantages in rolls. With five advantages the party definitely should have had something beneficial happen right off the bat. Such as finding a hidden key, spotting another access point, realizing that the lock is weak (adding to help break it if attempted), or something of that nature.

Here's what I do:

If they really need to get through a door, or to decode a datapad, or to slice a computer, or to convince a thug to talk, etc, to advance the story, then failure doesn't mean they don't do it.

Yeah, it's what I try to do too. It's great advice. If they needed to get into the room for the story to progress, they would've gotten into the room. It just wasn't simply necessary for the story and it was frustrating to see such bizzare rolls keep coming up on what should've been easy enough rolls for the players.

The players were going on a spy hunt and were trying to gather information. The fact that they struggled so hard to get into the room actually made the story better. After they struggled so hard to get into the room, and they found their evidence, they realized that this "spy" was actually a red herring. It's fun watching the players realize that they were stupid in assuming they had found the spy so quick and easy and that I wasn't just going to hand it to them. In the short term, the investigation would have to take a bit of thought and not just dice rolls to find the spy. The only way it could've gone better, from a GM's perspective, would be if they did bash down the door because then the base commanders could've repremanded them for being so brash.

There were many different avenues the players could've taken after not being able to get past the door. Options ranged from actually talking to the "spy" in question to following up leads on the other characters who might be the spy that they were searching for. In fact, I was extrapolating beyond what was in a published FFG adventure, so the spy hut would resolve itself in due time anyway due to falling forward.

The point still remains from my original post. If that would've been combat rolls instead of breaking into a room, the players would've surely lost the fight. Which, due to falling forward and keeping the game running, would've ment they would've run from the fight or would've been captured. It was just one of those nights where the dice wern't behaving and everyone was recieving bizzare results.

As much as I love the dice system and the story telling it supports, there are times when it frustrates me to no end. Last night my group was trying to get into a locked door. They kept rolling zero successes and a bunch of advantages. Each time I let them switch up the technique used to open the door. They tried Mechanics, Skuldugery, Computers, and even ripping the door off its hinges. Every check was either average or hard and the players were rolling 3-5 dice each. The successes just wernt coming last night.

My favorite roll of the night was PPPYYYG. The three purples all came up blank. Great, right? Nope. The net result was 0 successes/failure and 5 advantages.

At least the problem was eventually solved by waiting for the person who lived there to come back so they could knock on the door and use social skills to gain entrance. And now we have a joke about how well secured doors on Rebel outposts are constructed.

Anyone else have stories for when the dice just wern't cooperating?

So I AM on my phone so I do not read all the replies.If the players rolled that many advantages and they are trying to get through a door suddenly those advantages let them realize oh this is a great place to hide the key to get into the building and there it is. Hope this helps.

This situation starts happening when you start rolling checks like a D&D game. Rather than rolling a pass fail check, you should be rolling for intent which plays much better with a narrative RPG like EotE.

First, you need to decide if there is any consequence for failure. If the answer is no, skip the roll and move on with the story.

If there is a consequence for failure, figure out what the intent is. My favorite example is "I want to unlock this door before the guards arrive." Great! Now we have an intent that is not simply "I want to unlock this door" which really doesn't progress our narrative at all.

Failure is no longer the door is still locked, maybe failure means you unlock the door, but the guards show up just as you turn the nob and combat ensues or the escape continues. Maybe, you have a lot of advantage, so the door is still locked, but you notice a fire escape on the side. Maybe the door opens and there is another patrol of guard on the other side or an alarm goes off forcing your party to run.

These are all a lot more interesting than "you fail, the door remains locked." So keep intent in mind and roll intent rather than rolling for pass/fail binary results. Once your players get it down, your game will be much more engrossing and satisfying!

Anyone else have stories for when the dice just wern't cooperating?

kaosoe is right.

You really need to read this:

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule

Basically, you can *not* have the game stop just because the players can't get past a roadblock, whether that block is information or a door. The most important point is this: failure doesn't mean stopping. It means delay, or other consequences. Maybe it takes them longer to get in, so that once they're inside, *that's* when the occupant returns home early, forcing them to hide, run, or explain. Or somebody sees them and calls the cops.

An alternate way to handle it is to say that they need X successes before succeeding, and maybe allow Advantages to translate into successes. That way they're sure to get in, but it's the timing that matters. The gist of this is: move the challenge away from the thing in their way, and towards "time".

Thanks for the link. I'll have to read it when I get a chance.

The game wasn't stopping because they hit a roadblock. It wasn't a situation where they had to get into that room or the story couldn't continue. In fact, I was trying to get them to give up on getting past the door because it wasn't important to the story. The problem (if there was one) was that they kept pounding their head against the door instead of following up on other items. (Which the other options were as subtle as having the CO tell them to drop what they were doing and go on a mission right now.) It's a subtle meta-game the players were caught up in, and it seems several in this thread are making the same meta-game assumption. The thought was that the door was there for a reason and it was an obstical to overcome to succeed at the game. When in fact the door was a red hering and it only existed because of how the investigation had progressed. The game wasn't stopped, they had reached the end of one thread of investigation. When they do start investigating the actual "spy" they will not hit a roadblock due to failuers, they will fail forward.

I think it's fair to have players fail. They shouldn't be able to do everything they set their precious little hearts to. The door was locked and they couldn't get in. Great. They don't always need X successes to get into every door. They don't need to always pick the lock but have alarms go off when failure shows on the dice. If the door isn't important, and they can't pass the rolls, they shouldn't be able to open the door. It's subtle meta-gaming, but players often assume they will succeed at everything they try to do. If something isn't important to the story, they should be able to fail. Gaming isn't wish fullfillment. They aren't playing Mary Sues. Every item isn't an obstical to overcome. Failure is an option, especially for something that isn't important to the story.

But anyway, we're getting away from the point of this thread. The point of this thread is weird dice rolls and how they can be frustrating.

Does anyone have stories of weird dice rolls that they'd like to share? Ever have one of those nights where your character should succeed at what they are doing but you roll nothing but advantages? Do you think it's frustrating when you roll 7 advantages and 1 failure? Have any funny or interesting stories about how those results were interpreted? I agree with Col. Orange that some nights it feels like reading cat guts to keep coming up with interesting things for all of those advantages to mean.

I think it's fair to have players fail. They shouldn't be able to do everything they set their precious little hearts to. The door was locked and they couldn't get in. Great. They don't always need X successes to get into every door.

Absolutely. I think we all misinterpreted the same thing, ie that this was a road block, but yeah, sometimes the players have their hearts set on doing something that is completely pointless. It can be hard to divert them in a way that doesn't make them *even more certain* that they have to get inside that door.

But really, I try not to have the players waste too much time on red herrings, because as far as the effect on the game, they are the same as a roadblock . If that's what I detect them doing then I try to clarify it through events so it doesn't seem like a giveaway. Maybe after the second failed roll, the door is angrily opened by someone inside, and then the players realize the "9" on the door was really a "6" flipped upside down...they're at the wrong place! Or the occupant comes home earlier, or an Ack dog starts barking inside...

Does anyone have stories of weird dice rolls that they'd like to share? Ever have one of those nights where your character should succeed at what they are doing but you roll nothing but advantages? Do you think it's frustrating when you roll 7 advantages and 1 failure? Have any funny or interesting stories about how those results were interpreted? I agree with Col. Orange that some nights it feels like reading cat guts to keep coming up with interesting things for all of those advantages to mean.

I certainly have noticed the "strings of failure" with the dice, but it hasn't really stopped the game from moving along. If it was combat, they'd have to run...so be it. And I have to say, nobody has really complained about it yet because unlike, say, when we used to play D&D, you didn't sit there waiting for your turn only to fail *again*. I remember plenty of games like that with prior RPGs, but not this one. Everything is dynamic. Even failure with Advantage is contributory. 7A + 1F is still 1 boost to the next ally, 1 boost to the ally of choice, something using 3A, and recover a single Strain. That's not really a "failure"...

Advantage can also give the players some information that might provide for an alternate solution to the door. Zero successes, but 5 advantage. Why not go through the window that's hanging open?

We made up the talent of Explosives. After a mountain collapsed, shutting half the party in he decided to blow the enclosed door open using things he had collected. He has a 5 intellect and rolled against like 4 purple. It was a ridiculous roll for him. He failed and the bomb was a dud, but he had advantages. So I told him he could take some time and remake his bomb.

After spending some time remaking the bomb he tried again and failed his check once again, but this time with disadvantages. The whole now didn't leave any breathing room. So the people inside had to hurry or they would run out of air. It was epic. We now have decided that this type of bomb is impossible to make with those components.

The only situation I would like cleared up is what do you do when you get straight blank results. no advantage, threat, failure, or success.

The only situation I would like cleared up is what do you do when you get straight blank results. no advantage, threat, failure, or success.

It's a Failure. To Succeed you need at least a single remaining Success result. Extra Fail results are meaningless.

Anyone else have stories for when the dice just wern't cooperating?

kaosoe is right.

You really need to read this:

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule

Basically, you can *not* have the game stop just because the players can't get past a roadblock, whether that block is information or a door. The most important point is this: failure doesn't mean stopping. It means delay, or other consequences. Maybe it takes them longer to get in, so that once they're inside, *that's* when the occupant returns home early, forcing them to hide, run, or explain. Or somebody sees them and calls the cops.

An alternate way to handle it is to say that they need X successes before succeeding, and maybe allow Advantages to translate into successes. That way they're sure to get in, but it's the timing that matters. The gist of this is: move the challenge away from the thing in their way, and towards "time".

Sir, i just wish you'd know that you're a savior. I was trying to find this article again but i wasn't remembering the name. Thanks!

Does anyone have stories of weird dice rolls that they'd like to share? Ever have one of those nights where your character should succeed at what they are doing but you roll nothing but advantages? Do you think it's frustrating when you roll 7 advantages and 1 failure? Have any funny or interesting stories about how those results were interpreted? I agree with Col. Orange that some nights it feels like reading cat guts to keep coming up with interesting things for all of those advantages to mean.

The ones that really bug the crap out of me are not where the players fail to do something and can’t proceed, because I think our GM does a pretty good job of narrating that "fail forward" thing.

No, the ones that really kill me are where one of the players gets a totally whacked out idea of some of the stupidest stuff to do in the entire Galaxy, and because this is supposed to be a "Yes, and …" type of game, the GM decides to let the players be stupid but then assigns them an impossibly high difficulty. Yet, somehow, the players miraculously manage to actually SUCCEED in that roll, and now the GM has to try to figure out how to deal with that.

I’ve posted many examples in these forums of when other players in our game have done this kind of thing. During the last game, I think I managed to pull this kind of a stunt.

We were paid a small sum of money to get a couple of large cargo containers delivered to a particular party on a certain planet. Then we discovered that the cargo containers were full of Twilek slaves. So, we decided we wanted to go ahead and deliver the cargo containers, but with something else inside.

We racked our brains for a suitable replacement, and the only thing we could think of would be to put a Lylek in there. But an adult Lylek would be much too big, so we had to get young ones.

So, we went Lylek hunting.

We went back to a nest that we had encountered very early in the campaign, and built a really nice pit trap right in front of the entrance. We then built up guiding walls from the mouth of the entrance to the pit trap, so anything coming out of that cave would have to go into, through, or over the pit trap.

I got the bright idea that my Wookiee Marauder would go into the cave and draw out the adult. I managed to stay ahead of it, until we got near the entrance. But the adult wouldn’t go any further. So, I went back in, got close enough for it to swing poisoned tentacles at me, and then chopped one of them off with my vibro-axes — I did as much or more damage in that one shot than I think I’ve ever done, ever.

Losing a tentacle and gaining a couple of critical wounds was enough to enrage the adult that it was more than happy to follow me outside of the cave. I very nearly bought the farm right then and there, but thanks to my grav belt, and another unreasonably good roll, I managed to jump over the pit trap and to safety. If it hadn’t been for the grav belt, I would have been toast.

Somewhere along the line, the party members realized that all their heavy weapons they had brought down to the fight wouldn’t be anywhere remotely close to enough to deal with the adult. So, the Scoundrel hopped in his YT-2400, and hovered over the cave entrance. Once the adult came into view, he shot it with the Dorsal Turret-mounted Medium Laser Cannons — and got the most ridiculously high roll that I have ever seen, managing to do something like 140 points of damage to the Lylek.

After the momma was a grease spot, it wasn’t hard to go in and take the juveniles.

I had spent a good deal of XP that night to buy Pressure Point and some other talents, so when one of the juveniles charged at one of the other PCs, I waited for it to pass by and then I double-punched it — into unconsciousness, doing 14 points of Soak-bypassing damage per fist. One of the other PCs had covered himself in "momma goo" before entering the cave, and managed to charm the other juvenile, so that we didn’t have to knock it out.

So — Yes, we wantonly murdered a large native life form just so that we could cold-bloodedly trap and imprison its offspring, as a way of paying back the slavers who had done something slightly less evil to a group of Twileks.

Oy.

Just adding to the dice frustration - I've found that some of my players are wanting to make checks just for the sake of wanting a Triumph to help them in some other way. I've let them know that somethings don't actually require a check, such as opening a standard cargo crate or unlocked door.

I used to require checks for everything being done, but I listened to a Skill Monkey episode again and I was reminded that you don't always have to roll.

All the "fail forward" and "don't roll if you can't live with failure" advice is golden.

On the other end, you need to have failure mean something. This is something that the Burning Wheel/Mouse Guard games are big into. You can't keep rolling and rolling waiting for a result you want. When you fail a roll, then it is for keeps.

If they tried to unlock the door and fail, then they just can't open it unless they can significantly change the situation.

All the "fail forward" and "don't roll if you can't live with failure" advice is golden.

On the other end, you need to have failure mean something. This is something that the Burning Wheel/Mouse Guard games are big into. You can't keep rolling and rolling waiting for a result you want. When you fail a roll, then it is for keeps.

If they tried to unlock the door and fail, then they just can't open it unless they can significantly change the situation.

All the "fail forward" and "don't roll if you can't live with failure" advice is golden.

On the other end, you need to have failure mean something. This is something that the Burning Wheel/Mouse Guard games are big into. You can't keep rolling and rolling waiting for a result you want. When you fail a roll, then it is for keeps.

If they tried to unlock the door and fail, then they just can't open it unless they can significantly change the situation.

Definitely agree.

The way I deal with it involves the question of how time is passing.

In structured time, I tend to let them make multiple rolls to achieve an objective. The Outlaw Tech needs to make a Mechanics check to shut down the computer while a battle is going on. So each time it's his turn, he can make the check. If he fails, the battle continues and he may come under fire from the enemies guarding the computer, but he'll have another chance on his next turn.

There might be a time countdown or a number of turns before the computer activates or the ship takes off or whatever, but he can try multiple times.

If they're not in structured time, then I figure one roll covers however long it would reasonably take to make every reasonable effort. If it fails, then most likely you just can't get through that door and you'll have to do something else. To wait around until it would be OK to make another check could mean waiting hours and being extremely vulnerable to approaching enemies, or just derailing the mission in general.