Eh, it's obviously made with heavy weapons in mind. Take a standard heavy weapon of ammo type X's clip size. Multiply it. Apply to all weapons of that type. Fixed.

Not nitpick on your suggestion, but that sort of blanket fix doesn't solve any of the problems I have with the Backpack Ammo Supply. First, what makes a "standard" heavy weapon? Choosing poorly here will greatly impact every other weapon held to its power level. Second, "all weapons of a type" are scaled very differently from each other. Fully automatic weapons are generally weaker to compensate for their number of hits. On the other extreme, there are single shot weapons that are gamechangers in their own right. Using a fully automatic weapon as a baseline quickly gives single shot weapons ungodly amounts of ammunition. Conversely, a single shot weapon template will barely have any benefit for fully automatic weapons. Third, multiplication is the very issue I have with the backpacks in the first place.

Picking just one flat number to apply to all weapons is going to have weird edge cases. Multiplication makes the edge cases worse.

Well, look at it logically. Where do you see belt-feeders, usually? On full auto weapons that have a high rate of fire. If you're going to make a belt feeder for anything else, it'll have to be a custom job anyway, which means your ammo cartridge is going to be precisely that as well:

Custom Job.

Custom job implies finding a gunsmith or admech outlet willing to invest the time to modify a weapon not usually suited for a backpack ammo feed accordingly, then adjust a belt feed to its calibre, as well as create a viable storage for its ammo supply. You're not going to find this in a regular acquisition for normal gear. This is in the "extremely rare" territory and combines an equipment purchase with a service. I'd venture to say you're pretty much on the level of "unique". And unique is usually quite gamebreaking in some ways. It's not necessarily smart, though. Belt feeder sniper rifles? What a waste...

Well, look at it logically. Where do you see belt-feeders, usually? On full auto weapons that have a high rate of fire. If you're going to make a belt feeder for anything else, it'll have to be a custom job anyway, which means your ammo cartridge is going to be precisely that as well:

Custom Job.

The Backpack Ammo Supply is already a Weapon Modification, so I'm not sure why you mention the fact that linking a weapon to a backpack is a custom job. By definition, a Weapon Modification is a custom job. Also, a Backpack Ammo Supply could just as well have tubes connected to a decidedly-not-full-auto Flamer, Plasma Gun, or what have you.

I'm not trying attack you if it seems like I am, I'm just trying to state how I feel about the issue.

Point being that the gamebreaking aspect is mitigated by an atypical weaponry adjustment. Backpack ammo supplies are something that's mass produced like any other mod, for certain weapon types. Once you go outside those types, it becomes a custom job, for which you will need to bug a gunsmith or admech to do it for you. And getting them to do that means potentially diverging from holy, standard designs, which in itself is something requiring a bit of persuation or creative bribery.

Point being that the gamebreaking aspect is mitigated by an atypical weaponry adjustment. Backpack ammo supplies are something that's mass produced like any other mod, for certain weapon types. Once you go outside those types , it becomes a custom job, for which you will need to bug a gunsmith or admech to do it for you. And getting them to do that means potentially diverging from holy, standard designs, which in itself is something requiring a bit of persuation or creative bribery.

I'd like to call out this restriction.

[Only War]'s Backpack Ammo Pack's/Power Pack's compatibility: Any ranged weapon

[DH-2e]'s Backpack Ammo Supply compatibility: Any Bolt, Flame, Las, Melta, Plasma, and Solid Projectile weapon (basically every weapon that is not Exotic or a Launcher)

Assuming the mods are standard-issue as written, no backpack/weapon combination would be any more questionable than the next. Even if the Backpack Ammo Supply was limited to strictly Heavy, belt-fed weapons (i.e, Bolt and Solid Projectile weapons), there is still a great difference based on initial clip size. Multiplication is the issue here, not weapon choice.

EDIT: As an aside, how exactly are belt-fed sniper rifles a waste? Given the important role they can play in a confrontation, more ammunition can never hurt.

@DeathbyGrotz

Surely the same civilization that produced a standard template for making chainsaw swords would apply that same logic to having belt-fed everything . Hell, I think it's a shame that there can't be belt-fed launchers for DH2E, as that's the kind of over-the-top weapon that makes all of the gun porn in the game worthwhile.

Hell, I think it's a shame that there can't be belt-fed launchers for DH2E, as that's the kind of over-the-top weapon that makes all of the gun porn in the game worthwhile.

I have a hard time visualizing launchers belt-fed from a backpack. Expanded Magazine, sure, have a big ol' box on top or the side of the launcher. On the other hand, a belt of missiles is not only a liability, but very awkward. Do enlighten me if you have a solution though.

Belt fed sniper rifles are a waste because they're a single shot, precision weapon. You will never be able to use the amount of ammo you can fit in a backpack during an engagement. This is why no one makes backpack ammo supplies for sniper rifles. If you really want a bigger mag, it's far simpler to use a much smaller extended magasine, or borrow the twenty or sixty shot ammo drums from other settings (20/60 dependant on calibre).

If you are going into the detail of how guns have a variety of ammunition types and using it to support your argument, you need to apply the consequences there-of and realise that each backpack ammo supply needs a sound justification to even be produced for that gun type, because each backpack ammo supply is going to need its own production machine.

So, either all these guns have different ammunition types and need a reason to even have a backpack feed regularily available OR they actually all have the same calibre and the number of ammunition that fits in the backpack is the amount used by a weapon it's usually meant for, meaning, something you'd see in an actual IG regiment. In other words, all SP weapons base their backpack ammo supply off, say, a heavy stubber's amount.

For the record, I am neither a player nor a GM. I'm just a guy who likes the Dark Heresy books.

Concerning a reason for fifty million different backpacks, I'm going to argue "does there need to be a reason?" There are countless undescribed planets each with swarms of manufacturers. Who is to say that a particular backpack doesn't exist somewhere? As the backpack is written, nearly every single Pistol, Basic, and Heavy weapon is eligible for the upgrade. Reasons for those upgrades even existing are secondary concerns, if that.

Let me say it again, my main concern with the Backpack Ammo Supply is its multiplicative nature. Multiplication is always biased towards larger numbers. Stronger weapons tend to have bigger clips, which in turn incentivizes a one-stop ammo shop. Everything I'm trying to argue is to get less ammo for those weapons and more ammo for the smaller weapons that have more of a justification. It's extremes like 400 Bolter rounds vs. 40 in the same 15kg upgrade that stirred me to action.

"Does there even need to be a reason?"

"Yes. We're playing an RPG."

"Does there even need to be a reason?"

"Yes. We're playing an RPG."

That's the risk I took with playing that card then. Let me ask my question in another way: Do you not mind the multiplicative backpack as written? Despite how weapons can have dramatically skewed benefits?

I do, because it's not well thought-out in the slightest, but it's also easily fixed.

What I don't see coming up ever, however, is backpack feeders for shotguns, pistols or single shot weapons. Their practical applications do not generally warrant anything beyond an extended magasine in terms of additional ammo supply. Rapid fire, long range weaponry like an autogun, on the other hand, can reasonably benefit from a vast supply of additional ammunition during an engagement. This is likely why there's a multiplication rule in the first place, and why I suggested orienting yourself on the clip size of large, rapid fire weapons, for which the rule is obviously intended.

That is where our opinions differ.

I'll contest that the backpack ammo supplies are "obviously" meant for rapid fire weapons. Flamers, strictly single-shot, are repeatedly depicted with and encouraged to use fuel tanks to improve their usability. Meltas are presumably in the same boat, though I don't have any specific examples in mind. There are also such things as automatic shotguns and automatic sniper rifles. My suggestions are sticking to the written ruling that nearly every weapon can have a backpack. From my understanding, your view is to limit the backpack's compatibility to rapid, large clip weapons. Maybe the tune of a weapon that can fire Semi or Full Auto that has a clip of 20 or higher is something that you might suggest? That would exclude most shotguns, pistols, and single-shot weapons.

EDIT:

Backpack Ammo Supply

{fluff}

Upgrades: Any ranged weapon capable of Semi-Auto or Full Auto fire that also has a Clip of 20 or higher.

Something like this?

I'm serious, deathbygrotz, why are you so concerned about weapon practicality in the game with chainsaw swords, massed infantry battles with futuristic weapons, and backfiring space wizards? Shouldn't a belt-fed sniper rifle exist because it's cool and over the top and entirely in line with the source material? The rules as written support it existing. The theme of the setting supports it. Your argument against it seems to be that it's impractical for the imperium economy to produce these weapons, a notion which is contradicted both by real world examples (the boltgun is based off an impractical real world analogue) and by the setting itself. As a general rule, the only real difference between imperium weapons and ork weapons is that one uses faux-Latin names and the other uses faux-cockney names.

Why not just simply multiply the extra ammo capacity according to the type (pistol, basic, heavy) of the weapon? Like, pistols gain a x10 multiplier, basic weapons gain the x5, and heavies gain a x2. Larger-caliber/higher energy consumption weapons of the same type have lower base clip capacity anyway, so there shouldn't be a problem either.

Why not just simply multiply the extra ammo capacity according to the type (pistol, basic, heavy) of the weapon? Like, pistols gain a x10 multiplier, basic weapons gain the x5, and heavies gain a x2. Larger-caliber/higher energy consumption weapons of the same type have lower base clip capacity anyway, so there shouldn't be a problem either.

Not sure how many more times I have to mention this, but multiplication is the enemy. Take Laspistols with a clip of 40. With a x10 multiplier, suddenly they have 400 shots. My favorite solution is still [Nimsim]'s one-time infinite ammo buff. No bookkeeping needed other than a simple on/off switch.

Why not just simply multiply the extra ammo capacity according to the type (pistol, basic, heavy) of the weapon? Like, pistols gain a x10 multiplier, basic weapons gain the x5, and heavies gain a x2. Larger-caliber/higher energy consumption weapons of the same type have lower base clip capacity anyway, so there shouldn't be a problem either.

Not sure how many more times I have to mention this, but multiplication is the enemy. Take Laspistols with a clip of 40. With a x10 multiplier, suddenly they have 400 shots.

So? That's the whole point of the upgrade... to have loadsa' ammo.

So? That's the whole point of the upgrade... to have loadsa' ammo.

Alright, sorry about before. I cooled off a little. Yes, the backpack's main purpose is undeniably to give the user more ammo. My problem is that multiplication is biased and "unfair" (I use the term lightly) to small clip weapons while being overly accommodating for big clip weapons. Others have pointed out that a) my initial solution is overkill and b) bookkeeping and ammo capacity have a direct correlation. I like the one-time infinite ammo solution because all weapons benefit equally (sort of) with the smallest amount of bookkeeping required. Infinite ammo does mean much more to a 5d10 weapon than a 1d10 weapon, but at least every weapon has the same capacity.

That being said, I'm not sure this discussion has all that much life left in it. I found a solution I'm comfortable with, arguably the reason behind this thread in the first place. I'm all about responding to people and talking about their views if they still want to come in, but I'm personally satisfied. Carry on then. Thank you to everyone who posted.

The Infinite Ammo Supply idea has promise. In my experience running 40k RPG’s, I have found that combat usually takes 3-10 turns to conclude. Given that you now have five times the base ammo supply for that combat, most likely it will not run out during that combat encounter causing you to take a reload action at some point. This is the main reason or spirit of this Weapon Modification. I like it in it’s simply way to handle on singular aspect of combat that can be overcome through an Influence check to gain a weapon mod, negating reload action.

I would say this is a huge hole in your solution in that it negates multiple encounters back to back because you have to stop and spend five minutes to reload it in the rules. Also you would have to find a way to integrate away to use an Influence check to get said ammo to reload the Backpack. Harsh reality of logistics.

Second problem that I had with your solution was that it did not need to be changed from roles as written. I think the text on the item that states that once the jam is fixed you loss one clip’s worth of ammo and does not need to be reloaded very lenient to begin with. Easy solution to this is to give the weapon infinite ammo supply with 5 uses, with each use a combat encounter before you have to use a Influence check and down time to get it resupplied. Also add that each jam lowers said ammo supply by one use.

Though my main problem with this Weapon Modification is not solved by this solution. I see the worst part of Backpack Ammo Supply as written, comes from the rule breaking 15kg weight issue. It literally breaks the weight on ammo rule which states a clip of ammo weights 10% of the weapons weight. Through this it gives a weight reduction to some heavy weapons and a weight penalty to small lighter weapons.

Example
Weapon 5 clips Weight 0r Simply 50% Weapon Weight
Autogun 2.5 Kg
Lasgun 2 Kg
Meltagun 7.5 Kg
Plasma Gun 9 Kg
Heavy Stubber 15 Kg
Heavy Bolter 20 Kg
Autocannon 20Kg
Heavy Flamer 22.5 Kg

In my opinion this simply shows that the 15Kg weight for this modification breaks the rule and give a advantage to some weapons and a draw back to others. Weight as an issue will really hinder the character builds that are low in Strength and Toughness because of their low max carry. I would solve this issue by just stating that the Backpack Ammo Supply’s weight is equal to 50% of the base weapon to actually adhere to the same set of rules already used for ammo weight. Heck if you just change this part of this mod it will work fine as is every way else.

I do still like the concept of less bookkeeping with the Infinite Ammo though.

Heavy flamer already has a backpack ammo supply.

I don't know if I already posted it , but to address a couple things I think the backpack's weight should be based on the weight of the weapon it's modifying (weapon weight times 5 or 10 or something), that it's rarity should be the weapon rarity plus one more rarity, and that when it's out you have to reacquainted the ammo supply itself.

See two posts above yours, not identical but it goes in the same direction.

So? That's the whole point of the upgrade... to have loadsa' ammo.

Alright, sorry about before. I cooled off a little. Yes, the backpack's main purpose is undeniably to give the user more ammo. My problem is that multiplication is biased and "unfair" (I use the term lightly) to small clip weapons while being overly accommodating for big clip weapons.

A problem that would easily be fixed by limiting the backpack supply to heavy weapons, which logically are the only weapons anyone would plug them into anyway.

Did you just apply logic to 40k weaponry?

Down that road lies madness.

I'm confident in the setting's ability to handle the "logic" as sophisticated as "giant ammo backpacks are for heavy weapons - trying to attach them to other devices leads to stupidity of epic proportions".