So the only really legitimate issue with the SSD appearing in the game (since a 'sliding scale' obviously allows for its size via any kind of curve-plot) is that it is "supposed to be so powerful that it could not meaningfully fight with the number of ships you could bring to a 300-point match". And I think we can grant that - the SSD would have to be in 'epic' scale (say, 1000-pt-games) to begin with. It IS big!

'Even then', some argue, 'it would not be powerful ENOUGH at 1000 points, all on its own, to out-fight the dozens of Star Destroyers it should be able to'.

And that, a seemingly fair argument, will be what we talk about, today!

Looking at the concern, I see two fairly high-level approaches to addressing it. The first theory is that the EU probably overstated its capabilities quite a lot, and so it actually does fit within a 1000-pt game without issue. Second theory is that we've got the scale considerations far more wrong than we realize. In order, then!

1. The EU source most commonly cited is West End Game's RPG (originally, although much of what it proposes made its way into "Legends" canon and can now be found on Wookiepedia). This gives us a ship with a thousand batteries of various kinds (turbolaser, ion cannons, missiles, etc). A pretty big step up from the Victory-II, which WEG's tells us has 50 batteries (turbolaser, ion cannons, etc). One ship with 1000 = 20 ships with 50, after all, so even looking at that rough estimate, and knowing that a Victory-II costs 85 points, it tells us you couldn't fit even a single SSD into a game of less than 1700 points.
   
   HOWEVER, this proceeds on the assumption that a Super Star Destroyer is approximately equal to 20 Victory-II-class Star Destroyers. Is it? According to the EU, YESANDTHENSOME. According to 'canon'? Well...who knows... We know it's a "command ship", so it's theoretically possible it carriers no offensive weapons at all (unlikely, granted, but modern USN command ships like the Blue Ridge-class ARE practically unarmed in comparison - and we never did see the thing fire a shot on-screen), and just limited to anti-fighter defensive batteries. As noted - unlikely, but nothing makes that impossible. The real point is that there is so little 'canon' information on the ship OUT there that drawing conclusions from WEG's RPG cannot be considered conclusive. The ship could be anywhere from 0x the capability of a Victory-II to 20x its power or 1000x its capabilities. Slotting in at 10x would make it an 850 point ship - steep, but certainly possibly to include in a 1000 pt game.
   
2. We might just be flat-out wrong about the "scale" of the game! Or, more specifically, what the scale represents.
   
   Consider, we've seen so far that the game has a mini for a "squadron" of fighters...
   
   ...I've never seen any branch of any armed service consider three fighters "a squadron". The normal number is 10-14 (depending on the service). Star Wars has traditionally used 12-fighter squadrons (canonical reference: a few dozen episodes of 'Clone Wars'). It's obvious that these three miniatures actually mean considerably more ships than we see - potentially all 12 of a typical 'squadron'.
   
   But why do we assume that is true of only the fighters, where one fighter 'mini' represents 4 'actual ships'? When we first saw the ship point costs, I think many were surprised...
   
   ...TWO CR-90s are worth MORE than a VICTORY-II-CLASS-STAR-DESTROYER?!
   
   It seemed ridiculous! But...maybe it is. Perhaps the 'large' ship counters represent multiple units as well.
   
   What if each CR-90 mini represented not a single vessel, but a group of three CR-90s flying in very close formation, operating as one unit? And even the VSD, itself, representing a pair of such ships? Suddenly two CR-90 minis on the table (representing 6 ships "in universe") seems a bit more believably scaled against a single VSD-II mini (representing 2 ships). This doesn't even necessarily conflict with the concept of "Commanders" or "upgrades" for the ships, as it would be entirely reasonably for any given flotilla (represented by that one mini) to feature one 'lead' ship - which gets the senior commander and upgrades - and one or two 'wingmen' that are of the same class but simply there to echo the actions of the main ship.
   
   And we could then establish the Super Star Destroyer as the baseline unit of the game, in being the only unit where one miniature = literally one vessel.
   
   Suddenly, *boom*, all the scale problems in the game are fixed. ALL of them - that the CR90 mini is 'so large' next to the Victory-II is no problem...it's representing more than ships than the Victory-II does. That the point value would imply a Victory-II is not even as valuable as two CR90s...again, not a problem, it's not 1 vs 2, but 2 vs 6 (or whatever). etc.

So, IMHO, at least two good and reasonable options to explain the SSD being added to the game via an 'epic' scale.

IMHO, that the game was announced with a 'sliding scale' in the first place made it obvious FFG's intent was to include the SSD - but I think these present at least a couple ways of thinking about things that explain how they'd be able to do it, too!

I think you're reading too much into this. Having three fighters represent a squadron seems to me to be just to avoid clutter. Everything else up to this point is one model == one ship.

A couple more things to consider:

The number of guns does not relate to the number of attack dice in a linear manner. So having a ton of gun batteries doesn't mean you will need a bucket of dice.

The SSD/Epic size ships will probably have more than the standard four arcs, which means all those guns will be split up.

In XWM, the TIE Defender was hugely "nerfed" compared to the source material - in TIE Fighter, the Defender was almost untouchable by any other fighter (more firepower than an X-Wing, faster and more maneuverable than an A-Wing, shields like a B-Wing). But FFG took inspiration from those sources and made their own interpretation, one that fit with their game.

So, I agree that there could be a place for the SSD in an Epic format.

So, I agree that there could be a place for the SSD in an Epic format.

Which all assumes at they'd do a Epic format for Armada, which is hardly a given.

So, I agree that there could be a place for the SSD in an Epic format.

Which all assumes at they'd do a Epic format for Armada, which is hardly a given.

While it may not be "official" for a while there will still be unoffical matches, "If you build it they will play"

I think my main issue with a SSD in game is that it would put pressure on the designs of all smaller ships including ISD's, MC80s etc and push them to be smaller and less impressive.

Like we could have some epic looking huge capitol ships on both sides or we could shrink those down in order to fit a SSD in game.

I think my main issue with a SSD in game is that it would put pressure on the designs of all smaller ships including ISD's, MC80s etc and push them to be smaller and less impressive.

Like we could have some epic looking huge capitol ships on both sides or we could shrink those down in order to fit a SSD in game.

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

Presuming the "Epic" games at this scale are 1000 points (I don't think that's unreasonable), and a SSD comes in at 850 pts to fit within that providing some room for other escorts, you could still match it against five MC-80s...yet the MC-80s would still remain twice as powerful as a Victory-II.

...just as one example.

I mean, yes, the people who bought into some of the more extreme EU interpretations of the SSD - who expect it to be able to face down a hundred Star Destroyers - yeah, they'll be disappointed. But I don't think there was ever any reason to think it was anything like a fraction of that kind of capability. It's a big ship! It is SURELY a powerful monster! But I think matched against five or six MC-80s or five or six Star Destroyers as an 'even fight'...works okay for me to still see it as a beast.

I think my main issue with a SSD in game is that it would put pressure on the designs of all smaller ships including ISD's, MC80s etc and push them to be smaller and less impressive.

Like we could have some epic looking huge capitol ships on both sides or we could shrink those down in order to fit a SSD in game.

This is also presuming that the Super Star Destroyer is a requirement for this game that forces all other ships to comply to it.

Huge ships in X-Wing weren't a thing until several waves were already in the wild and the game was established. Even now I've never seen an epic match played in our FLGS, and I would suppose in the community at large fewer Epic matches are done than standard matches.

A Super Star destroyer will be an item if and when Armada is large enough to explore alternate modes of play. The game already clocks in at two hours, remember. Epic matches, which would have the higher point ceiling an SSD would realistically need, are going to last much longer. Would you want to devote almost an entire evening to Armada?

What's going to happen is that Star Destroyers and Mon Calamari cruisers are going to be released to give us our "Maximum firepower" option, just like large ships were. Once they are down and we have a solid range of ships to choose from, if the game is as popular as X-Wing was, they will consider other options and then think about bringing in an SSD and how it will function in relation to the rest of the fleet.

CR-90s are hardly the killing gunships one would expect them to be. If a Super Star Destroyer can be overwhelmed by a couple of Assault Frigates is it still an SSD?

CR-90s are hardly the killing gunships one would expect them to be. If a Super Star Destroyer can be overwhelmed by a couple of Assault Frigates is it still an SSD?

Well, it should certainly be possible. The one in the film was destroyed by a single kamikaze A-wing once its deflector shields went down. I know it was under orders not to fire, but that's to do with its ability to destroy things before they kill it. Its actual damage soak doesn't seem impossibly high from the films, meaning that it could realistically be portrayed as a giant glass cannon of sorts.

While it may not be "official" for a while there will still be unoffical matches, "If you build it they will play"

FFG will never produce a ship that can't fit in the official sanctioned events. So if they do a Epic format and if something like a SSD could fit in the point spread, then maybe you might see one.

But even if they do an an epic game that doesn't mean we'll ever see a SSD, it's possible but far from a given.

I'm not sure they'd even make something as big as the Allegiance let alone an Executor. However, if they want to do it, make it look cool, and have suitable rules, who am I to complain? I love large capital ships and I'd probably pick one up.

Does it break scale? Maybe. Will it need to be nerfed? Yes. Will it look great on the table? Undoubtedly. But it's too soon to say anything useful about it.

Will it look great on the table?

See that's not even a given...

Lets say the ISD is 8 inches long. Putting a 12 inch SSD next to it, would not look good on the table.

While it may not be "official" for a while there will still be unoffical matches, "If you build it they will play"

FFG will never produce a ship that can't fit in the official sanctioned events. So if they do a Epic format and if something like a SSD could fit in the point spread, then maybe you might see one.

But even if they do an an epic game that doesn't mean we'll ever see a SSD, it's possible but far from a given.

I am referring specifically to the fact that people will play "Epic" Armada sanctioned format or no, much like some people played giant X-wing matches before "Epic" was official.

I think its basically a given that in any points based miniatures game people will play large matches regardless of any official rules. Do I think an SSD is guaranteed if "Epic" Armada happens no, (in fact I would lean towards the side it doesn't happen), heck for all we know ISDs/MC80s might be the "Epic" ships instead of going to the SSD scale and the VSD is our upper limit standard ship

Wait wait. Just like to counter one (fairly insignificant) part of your argument.

We know that the SSD has weapons - unlike some modern command ships - because Piett is yelling "Intensify forward firepower!" when the ship gets rammed. Actually, I'd have to watch RotJ again, but I'm fairly certain that we actually see shots coming from it when it is getting attacked by the Y-Wing and A-Wing on the conning tower...

That being said, I do believe we will see some form of SSD in here. I just hope they don't have to nerf it too much to make it work.

Wait wait. Just like to counter one (fairly insignificant) part of your argument.

We know that the SSD has weapons - unlike some modern command ships - because Piett is yelling "Intensify forward firepower!" when the ship gets rammed.

And 'Armada' helpfully points out that ships have "anti-fighter" batteries that are distinct from their "anti-ship" batteries - to your point, it is certainly seen and referenced on-screen that the SSD has anti-fighter weapons. That doesn't necessarily mean it has anti-ship weapons (the USN 'command ships' referenced above commonly do have anti-fighter weapons; indeed our aircraft carriers are only armed with anti-fighter/missile weapons outside of their fighter wing).

Note that I don't think this is likely regarding the SSD - but it's certainly possible that it only has defensive weapons and acts only as a command ship/carrier vs a ship-to-ship combatant. We've never seen otherwise on screen!

Regardless of what logic you're using to justify it, the end result is still the same: The largest Star Destroyer in Star Wars, Vader's flagship and the ship that managed to be imposing even when competing with a Death Star, gets reduced to a giant near-useless brick that can barely shoot a Corvette on the gameboard.

Regardless of what logic you're using to justify it, the end result is still the same: The largest Star Destroyer in Star Wars, Vader's flagship and the ship that managed to be imposing even when competing with a Death Star, gets reduced to a giant near-useless brick that can barely shoot a Corvette on the gameboard.

Hardly. Presuming that 850 point figure (seems reasonable to me), that puts it equal to 20 CR-90s - if the proposed 'idea' of the thread is correct that a CR-90 mini best represents a group of (say) 3 ships, it means the SSD is something that is equal in combat to 60 Corvettes.

That seems well in-line with the idea of the thing as a massively powerful battleship.

And that is presuming the ship IS a 'combat platform'. As noted in the other point - we don't even actually know if it is 'in (nu)canon'.

This sort of reminds me of the little experiment Games Workshop concocted when they announced that they were going to produce Warmaster; a small scale version of Warhammer Fantasy!

Regardless of what logic you're using to justify it, the end result is still the same: The largest Star Destroyer in Star Wars, Vader's flagship and the ship that managed to be imposing even when competing with a Death Star, gets reduced to a giant near-useless brick that can barely shoot a Corvette on the gameboard.

Hardly. Presuming that 850 point figure (seems reasonable to me), that puts it equal to 20 CR-90s - if the proposed 'idea' of the thread is correct that a CR-90 mini best represents a group of (say) 3 ships, it means the SSD is something that is equal in combat to 60 Corvettes.

That seems well in-line with the idea of the thing as a massively powerful battleship.

And that is presuming the ship IS a 'combat platform'. As noted in the other point - we don't even actually know if it is 'in (nu)canon'.

Listen to what you're saying. You're saying that tossing decades of Star Wars lore out the window and turning the biggest, most intimidating Star Destroyer into a carrier into a carrier for the sake of being able to put it on the table is a good thing.

But let's assume you're not, we've just limited the Imperials to one ship in epic format. Unless we raise the point limit of the games even more, there will barely be any fighters (which means the carrier theory goes down with it) or any upgrades. Even if we make it past that, how big is the model going to be? Will it even be movable? Or will it just stay put on the middle of the table and never move?

And then there's the other end of the balance spectrum: The opponent. Given that the opponent will be fielding dozens of models and stars knows how many fighters, what will the limitations be on the amount of firepower the SSD will be allowed to throw against the opponent? We've seen in X-wing that restricting the epic ships' firepower leads to them being nearly useless on the battlefield, so "only two shots a turn" isn't going to cut it. But give the SSD too many shots and we risk it being a one-ship-beats-all model.

Oh, and let's not forget the other big elephant in the room: What do the rebels get?

Look, I love the SSD, but getting it on the gaming table does not sound feasible right now. If FFG manages to prove me wrong, hurray for being proven wrong, but right now I just don't see it happening.

Completely agree with Keroko in all respects.

The reason we all like SSDs is because it's a massive, super-duper, beat the Rebels into a pulp, intimidate the crap out of the enemy, ship. Anything less than that (which is the image it projects) is going to be a disapointment. Getting the kinda of SSD that matches the image is going to be tough to impossible for the reasons Keroko states.

A command ship, that can only engage in anti-fighter attacks, is not something anyone is going to want. Why waste points on it? And as for the sliding scale for the models... Part of the allure of an SSD is its stage presence. An SSD that is about the size as an ISD (which it will almost have to be for affordability and other issues) has no appeal at all.

Just my 2 cents.

I for one have faith that whatever they come up with will be good. This is all a ridiculous discussion of course as they have not even released the basic set yet.

Personally, the only aspect that I would demand be movie-accurate is the scale. I would WANT to pay a lot of money for an enormous, highly-detailed model thank you. You kiddies will have to be content with corvettes and destroyers, us gainfully-employed adults want expensive options to categorically demonstrate exactly how silly we are to all our nerd buddies. An SSD would be like a 40k titan, not often used but great to look at.

I think my main issue with a SSD in game is that it would put pressure on the designs of all smaller ships including ISD's, MC80s etc and push them to be smaller and less impressive.

Like we could have some epic looking huge capitol ships on both sides or we could shrink those down in order to fit a SSD in game.

A good point.

Also the Victory mini has two challenges. It needs to look impressive while still fitting on the mat.

The VSD looks about 6" long, or roughly the size of a Large ship from X-wing. If they make the SSD the same size as the CR-90, it isn't going to look large enough -- relative to the VSD and ISD. If the SSD mini is much larger, it won't be playable on the mat. Not as anything other than an over-glorified terrain piece.

With FFG's sliding scale, it's unclear how large the SSD mini would need to be to still look "right." If it turns out less than $200 to $300, I will still buy it. Though I have to wonder if FFG will sell enough to make the SSD mini worth producing.

I for one have faith that whatever they come up with will be good. This is all a ridiculous discussion of course as they have not even released the basic set yet.

Personally, the only aspect that I would demand be movie-accurate is the scale. I would WANT to pay a lot of money for an enormous, highly-detailed model thank you. You kiddies will have to be content with corvettes and destroyers, us gainfully-employed adults want expensive options to categorically demonstrate exactly how silly we are to all our nerd buddies. An SSD would be like a 40k titan, not often used but great to look at.

Wasn't there posts about a Star Destroyer in games of X-Wing once?

Fact is I hope a Star Destroyer is as big as an X-Wing CR-90.

But if FFG made the super, at three times that size, I'm sure I'd get one. It won't fit on a board, manoeuvre well and will be too many points to be worth including. It might be overpowered or nerfed too far.

But it will be an awesome model.

There is no chance that an

Wasn't there posts about a Star Destroyer in games of X-Wing once?

Fact is I hope a Star Destroyer is as big as an X-Wing CR-90.

But if FFG made the super, at three times that size, I'm sure I'd get one. It won't fit on a board, manoeuvre well and will be too many points to be worth including. It might be overpowered or nerfed too far.

But it will be an awesome model.

Assuming you mean an Imperial-Class Star Destroyer, there is no chance it'll be the size of the X-Wing Corvette. It's less than twice the size of the Victory class, which is about 5" long.

Given their sliding scale, i'd expect the Imperial to be about 8-8.5".