There is no fluff against women commissars. Quite the opposite. Or, for that matter, no fluff against women anything, except as space marines. I just believe he was objecting to the other less canon-like parts.

"Everyone is welcome in 40k, I don't see signs screaming "no women". The product and the universe are what they are, forgive the cliché"

there is absolutely no reason that the 40K universe could include more females in the TTG without changing the "Grimdark" feel.

this is not "social Justice" this is just asking them to enter the 21st century regarding their audience (and potential future players)

Females are becoming a much larger part of gaming...why would GW want to alienate those possible customers? Why wouldn't GW want to try getting those people in their game...I keep using Warmachine as an example but it's true...I have never met one female 40k TTG player, I have met several female warmachine players.

We're not talking about GW, we're talking about FFG. The franchise is already established, so changing it isn't really a fight that belongs here.

[insert Quote tags that I accidentally broke here] Everyone is welcome in 40k, I don't see signs screaming "no women". [And again]

By this line of reasoning, I should demand that romance novels include more violence and action because they are not inclusive of me as a man.

A swing and a miss.

Firstly, action and violence are not default male interests. Way to perpetuate another negative stereotype.

Secondly, this analogy doesn't work. They're asking for FEMALE CHARACTERS, not to cater to stereotypical 'feminine' tastes. We're not suggesting we 'girly up' your grimdark power fantasy. Nobody wants a bubble-shooting rainbow tank or a romcom with Zarathur and an Eldar Banshee. You know, because all women are into these kinds of things, just like all men are into action-violence

For your analogy to be accurate you should be suggesting that people include more plot-important male characters in their romance novels, maybe even as viewpoint characters. Because that's all that's being asked for here.

And for the record, yes, people DO tend to stay away from games (and other things) where they don't feel catered to or under-represented. You probably just don't notice. Privilege is often invisible to the privileged.

I say, we get FF to make a Cultist-chan expansion and everybody wiil be happy.

Underneath all of their armour, does it really matter what gender they are, or what colour their skin is? We're not likely to get Orks or Tau to budge much on their skin colour, and the Eldar units so far are fairly androgynous.

I like the 40k universe and this card game regardless of the number of sausages I have at my disposal.

"If everyone is welcome, then why should they focus on showing white males over people of color or women?"

So, I can't play "Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy" because the main character is an Egyptian male?

I can't play Tomb Raider because the main character is a female?

I can't watch Nikita because the lead is a woman?

I can't watch ***** as Folk because the main couple is ***?

No one is stopping you from playing Warhammer if you're a man, woman, black, white, straight, bi, no one cares. No one is stopping you from watching any TV show, playing any game, or reading any book you would like to enjoy. There is no "women are not allowed" sign for this game, and it even has female options in this instance. It's also funny how there has to be an "even" amount of men to women for it to "not be sexist" and be "more female friendly". So I can go complain to the people that made "Sex and the City" and demanding an even number of male lead roles for each female lead role? I can go complain at any game or show that has 5 women for every 3 men and shout sexism?

It's funny, every time this topic comes up the "accepting" people that "care about gender and equality" can only play a game so long as they can play their own gender and their own race. Not at all close minded, bigoted or hypocritical. If you cannot play a game because you cannot play as a woman, or as a white man, or what have you, then the issue is with YOU, not the game.

Shame that Qeer is censored. Also, why on earth is G ay censored??

No one is stopping you from playing Warhammer if you're a man, woman, black, white, straight, bi, no one cares. No one is stopping you from watching any TV show, playing any game, or reading any book you would like to enjoy. There is no "women are not allowed" sign for this game, and it even has female options in this instance. It's also funny how there has to be an "even" amount of men to women for it to "not be sexist" and be "more female friendly". So I can go complain to the people that made "Sex and the City" and demanding an even number of male lead roles for each female lead role? I can go complain at any game or show that has 5 women for every 3 men and shout sexism?

It's funny, every time this topic comes up the "accepting" people that "care about gender and equality" can only play a game so long as they can play their own gender and their own race. Not at all close minded, bigoted or hypocritical. If you cannot play a game because you cannot play as a woman, or as a white man, or what have you, then the issue is with YOU, not the game.

That's incredibly easy to say when you're a white male (I can vouch for that, I AM one). You are catered to by default. You almost NEVER have to worry about having the choice of playing a white male. Ask a large selection of people who identify as female/trans/non-gendered or people from different ethnic groups if they feel the same, or if they'd prefer to see some actual representation.

Incidentally, I care a lot more about being able to play as a diverse choice of characters, and I'm a white male, so your point about "the "accepting" people that "care about gender and equality" can only play a game so long as they can play their own gender and their own race" is patently false. I can do that without batting an eyelid. I like being able to choose outside of my demographic.

"If everyone is welcome, then why should they focus on showing white males over people of color or women?"

So, I can't play "Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy" because the main character is an Egyptian male?

I can't play Tomb Raider because the main character is a female?

I can't watch Nikita because the lead is a woman?

I can't watch ***** as Folk because the main couple is ***?

Not remotely what I'm trying to say. It's not about whether you can or can't play something, it's about whether the thing in question makes you feel like you belong. It's about comfort and fun. I can and do have fun playing characters unlike me, but I suspect if I was not given the option to play someone like me in the vast majority of games, or to see someone like me in the vast majority of movies, or to read about someone like me in the vast majority of novels, I'd be dishearteneed. I'll probably never know for sure--as a straight white male, the vast majority of movies, novels, and games are about people who share my race, gender, and orientation. And note that I'm not saying we should not have straight white male protagonists. They can be, and often are, great characters. But there's absolutely enough room in the market for additional characters who are less typical in one or more ways. And while we do sometimes get such characters, they are rarely primary figures--they are the hero's girlfriend or sidekick.

In terms of Conquest, since this is the Conquest forum, we have Straken already--why can't we have Amberly Vail for our next Astra Militarum Warlord? She's in the fluff, she's worked with the Imperial Guard on a regular basis, and she's totally badass . But she's also a woman, which would go a long way towards saying to female players "people like you are a part of this, and belong here."

No one is stopping you from playing Warhammer if you're a man, woman, black, white, straight, bi, no one cares. No one is stopping you from watching any TV show, playing any game, or reading any book you would like to enjoy.

It might be true that no one cares about stopping women from playing Warhammer, although I suspect there are certain corners of the hobby that would prefer it. However, there's an excluded middle between "not placing up active walls to prevent it from being possible" and being "welcoming." For example, if you went to a store that had a sign that says "We Welcome Your Business," you would probably be upset if the clerk at the cash register spent an hour on a personal phone call, and rang up your purchase really slowly so he could focus more on his conversation. Most people would be--that's terrible customer service, and it's happening under a sign that says the store is welcoming. But you still got to buy whatever it was you wanted, so if you complain about the poor customer service, you're mostly complaining about how welcoming the place is to your business. When you say that women are welcome, then spend your time posting about how much they complain and nag, that's more or less being the bad clerk.

There is no "women are not allowed" sign for this game, and it even has female options in this instance. It's also funny how there has to be an "even" amount of men to women for it to "not be sexist" and be "more female friendly". So I can go complain to the people that made "Sex and the City" and demanding an even number of male lead roles for each female lead role? I can go complain at any game or show that has 5 women for every 3 men and shout sexism?

Again, this is an excluded middle.There's a world of difference between a Warlord set that is 2/7ths female (with one of the females only being identifiable as such through external reference to lore not provided in the game, and the other being presented in clothing that is was probably designed with a male audience in mind), and requesting that the ratio not get smaller --if we get a female Eldar Warlord and a female Astra Militarum Warlord in the upcoming cycle, but not a second female Dark Eldar Warlord, then we wouldn't actually have a higher ratio of male to female characters than the core set. 2 females to 5 males is not a ratio biased towards anyone but men, Sure, Orks are genderless, but they are dentified as "Boyz," and words matter. But even if you exclude Orks and Space Marines , then the ratio is still currently in favor of males. We have five factions that could easily support a lore-friendly female Warlord (Chaos, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau, and Astra Militarum). Several of those already have prominent examples in the fluff--Amberly Vail, Jain Zarr, and Lady Malys, for example. Is politely asking that these figures get a slightly increased presence that big a deal?

It's funny, every time this topic comes up the "accepting" people that "care about gender and equality" can only play a game so long as they can play their own gender and their own race. Not at all close minded, bigoted or hypocritical. If you cannot play a game because you cannot play as a woman, or as a white man, or what have you, then the issue is with YOU, not the game.

And once again, we have an excluded middle. We see posters who are passionate about knowledgeable regarding 40k interested in seeing more equal representation within it. They could not possibly already be 40k fans if they were not able to play a game focused primarily on white dudes. Not to speak for anyone else, but it seems that the posters can play the game as it is, but would prefer to play it if tweaks were made to the way the existing lore is presented. I don't think people are even asking that the lore be changed, just that the spotlight be shone on different areas occasionally.

As a final note, I'm unlikely to respond to anyone quoting my post but not actually responding to my points again. Anyone who is interested in actually debating the topic should be advised that debates are different from reciting talking points without evidence or supporting arguments.

A swing and a miss.

Firstly, action and violence are not default male interests. Way to perpetuate another negative stereotype.

Secondly, this analogy doesn't work. They're asking for FEMALE CHARACTERS, not to cater to stereotypical 'feminine' tastes. We're not suggesting we 'girly up' your grimdark power fantasy. Nobody wants a bubble-shooting rainbow tank or a romcom with Zarathur and an Eldar Banshee. You know, because all women are into these kinds of things, just like all men are into action-violence

For your analogy to be accurate you should be suggesting that people include more plot-important male characters in their romance novels, maybe even as viewpoint characters. Because that's all that's being asked for here.

And for the record, yes, people DO tend to stay away from games (and other things) where they don't feel catered to or under-represented. You probably just don't notice. Privilege is often invisible to the privileged.

You are the one swinging and missing here, though I bear some responsibility. I said "inclusive of me as a man", not of all men. Perhaps that was a bit of an unfortunate sentence, my aim was to speak to what I would prefer to read about. I'm well aware that there are many different preferences amongst men.

Second, I don't know where you get off talking about my being privileged. For the record, though admittedly I can't prove it, I'm a Hispanic man, who came to the US as a legal immigrant. My father was a teacher, who was politically persecuted where we came from and had to leave with us. I don't know what part of that screams privileged to you. Try not to make assumptions about me without actually knowing who I am and what I may have gone through in my life.

Now, the fact that there don't seem to be many characters that are like me is inconsequential. It's sci-fi in the 41st millennium, I'm not looking for parallels with who I am, what I look like, or what gender I belong to. I don't know why anyone would. It's a hobby, I'm interested in a good story and a pleasant time. It goes no deeper than that.

FWIW, I apologise for any offense caused. Be mindful though that there are many kinds of privilege. I'm party to many myself. I'm white, male, cis-gendered, of no religion, most people assume I'm straight because I have a female partner and a child. For all of that I grew up poor, and to a certain degree I still am, and I'm not actually straight (thought that rarely presents problems for me due to the reasons mentioned above).

So for all that you might not experience white privilege, or perhaps some of the other kinds I've mentioned (you haven't specified and I don't want to make any further assumptions), you still experience male privilege whether you know it or not. You don't have to deal with the fear and distaste of unwanted male attention the same way. Your tastes are more catered to in mass media. You are more likely to receive a higher wage than a woman for doing the exact same job. These are only a few examples.

Yes, this is only a hobby. But it displays the same male bias that's seen everywhere. I for one think it's worth challenging that.

So, here's a simple little questionnaire for folks:

Part 1: Why would having more female characters be actively harmful to any of the following Conquest, the Warhammer 40k universe, or its fans? Assume for the purposes of this question that no male characters are removed, and no female Orks or Space Marines are added. In fact, assume that we're just operating under a remotely plausible galactic population and increasing visibility of the female characters who would inevitably exist in this circumstance. Can you think of any reasons this would actually do harm?

Part 2: If you can't think of reasons why this would actually hurt people, the lore, or the game, then why are you opposed to it? Note that arguments such as "I don't think anything should to be changed" are actually in support of the status quo, and are not actually a statement of indifference on the topic.

Part 3: If you aren't opposed to a change that doesn't harm people, the lore, or the game, then why are you posting to criticize the suggestions for such a change--one that, by the criteria established above, is literally harmless?

• Members
• 590 posts Today, 06:10 PM
  FWIW, I apologise for any offense caused. Be mindful though that there are many kinds of privilege. I'm party to many myself. I'm white, male, cis-gendered, of no religion, most people assume I'm straight because I have a female partner and a child. For all of that I grew up poor, and to a certain degree I still am, and I'm not actually straight (thought that rarely presents problems for me due to the reasons mentioned above).

  So for all that you might not experience white privilege, or perhaps some of the other kinds I've mentioned (you haven't specified and I don't want to make any further assumptions), you still experience male privilege whether you know it or not. You don't have to deal with the fear and distaste of unwanted male attention the same way. Your tastes are more catered to in mass media. You are more likely to receive a higher wage than a woman for doing the exact same job. These are only a few examples.

  Yes, this is only a hobby. But it displays the same male bias that's seen everywhere. I for one think it's worth challenging that.

I accept the apology and offer one of my own if I misunderstood what you meant.

I am white, happy, and in love with life. I am a conservative and I am a Christian; Both my Grandfather's fought in WW2 and Korea so people like us could sit behind our computers and exercise our 1st amendment rights. I am not ashamed, I don't feel guilty for being white and I certainly don't apologize. People need to learn that it is okay to have an opinion that may conflict with someone else s - learn to grow thicker skin or else George Orwell's 1984 will become a reality! Yessss... I believe the Chaos Gods are quite happy here, sowing their seeds of destruction on this thread! Hmmm.....Chaos...... I think I hear Conquest calling me!

• Members
• 590 posts Today, 06:10 PM
  FWIW, I apologise for any offense caused. Be mindful though that there are many kinds of privilege. I'm party to many myself. I'm white, male, cis-gendered, of no religion, most people assume I'm straight because I have a female partner and a child. For all of that I grew up poor, and to a certain degree I still am, and I'm not actually straight (thought that rarely presents problems for me due to the reasons mentioned above).

  So for all that you might not experience white privilege, or perhaps some of the other kinds I've mentioned (you haven't specified and I don't want to make any further assumptions), you still experience male privilege whether you know it or not. You don't have to deal with the fear and distaste of unwanted male attention the same way. Your tastes are more catered to in mass media. You are more likely to receive a higher wage than a woman for doing the exact same job. These are only a few examples.

  Yes, this is only a hobby. But it displays the same male bias that's seen everywhere. I for one think it's worth challenging that.

I accept the apology and offer one of my own if I misunderstood what you meant. I have an interesting idea. I'm going to show my wife the cards in detail and perhaps speak to her about the universe in general to get her perspective. Perhaps some of us should do the same with wives/girlfriends/partners and share what they had to say. It strikes me as a bit unbalanced that we are a bunch of men discussing female gender equality.

When looking at the cards, you should play "What is this character's gender?" game when looking at the Eldar stuff.

What's wrong with doing something that's good and makes people feel included? Why is the *fluff* more important than people in the real world? And the argument that a game should only represent its supposed audience is faulty at its core - reaching out to people of all sexes, genders, and races makes the game more accessible and increases sales. Other "geek" industries are starting to see the benefits of this approach now with the soaring successes of things like Doctor Who on TV and the Marvel Now initiative in comics.

And, also, it's a *good thing to do*. It's nice. It's friendly. It's right. Showing people that they are welcome in the fantasy world that they're reading about, playing in, collecting, it's the right thing to do.

Putting aside the fact that I'd love to see the men-only thing with the SM thrown out an airlock, I think it would be fantastic to see a bunch of women on the cards. A woman commissar in the AM. Woman grunts. More women in the Eldar and Dark Eldar. And more people of color, too! Why can't there be black Blood Angels, or Asian Space Wolves, or Latino Storm Wardens. It's a setting deep into the future and it's totally made up! There is no verisimilitude to cling to, no "fact". There is only war, and it should be a war that we all get to fight in.

There's just so much wrong here, I can't.... I just can't even begin to fathom where to start. Nope. Not going to bother.

As far as I see it, you've just quoted an entirely well-reasoned post. Just how is there "so much wrong here?"

Not going to be lured in to arguing with someone who's never going to understand the opposing perspective. The exact lame arguments being used here are ones I've seen time and time again. The constant whining to change everything to match one perspective ideals. It's just so wrong and consistently leads to slippery slope type of idiocy like we saw on the news today, where a public school (I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, really) has decided it's better to avoid using gender terms when addressing children and instead calling them "purple penguins." WTF?

So yeah, there's plenty wrong with this. But guess what, I don't have to lay out my arguments why it's wrong. I can just shake my head in bemusement and annoyance and that's about it.

Honestly this is why they need a separate RSP (Religion S#X Politics) thread for this type of stuff. It adds nothing terribly interesting to the actual game's discussion for a huge majority of people and just leads to angst.

For our FB page, we're running a strict rule about it - no discussions AT ALL about these topics. It works nicely.

What's wrong with doing something that's good and makes people feel included? Why is the *fluff* more important than people in the real world? And the argument that a game should only represent its supposed audience is faulty at its core - reaching out to people of all sexes, genders, and races makes the game more accessible and increases sales. Other "geek" industries are starting to see the benefits of this approach now with the soaring successes of things like Doctor Who on TV and the Marvel Now initiative in comics.

And, also, it's a *good thing to do*. It's nice. It's friendly. It's right. Showing people that they are welcome in the fantasy world that they're reading about, playing in, collecting, it's the right thing to do.

Putting aside the fact that I'd love to see the men-only thing with the SM thrown out an airlock, I think it would be fantastic to see a bunch of women on the cards. A woman commissar in the AM. Woman grunts. More women in the Eldar and Dark Eldar. And more people of color, too! Why can't there be black Blood Angels, or Asian Space Wolves, or Latino Storm Wardens. It's a setting deep into the future and it's totally made up! There is no verisimilitude to cling to, no "fact". There is only war, and it should be a war that we all get to fight in.

There's just so much wrong here, I can't.... I just can't even begin to fathom where to start. Nope. Not going to bother.

As far as I see it, you've just quoted an entirely well-reasoned post. Just how is there "so much wrong here?"

Not going to be lured in to arguing with someone who's never going to understand the opposing perspective. The exact lame arguments being used here are ones I've seen time and time again. The constant whining to change everything to match one perspective ideals. It's just so wrong and consistently leads to slippery slope type of idiocy like we saw on the news today, where a public school (I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, really) has decided it's better to avoid using gender terms when addressing children and instead calling them "purple penguins." WTF?

So yeah, there's plenty wrong with this. But guess what, I don't have to lay out my arguments why it's wrong. I can just shake my head in bemusement and annoyance and that's about it.

Hello, Mr. Pot. How are things with you today?

Only one person as suggested actually changing things....other than that, people have been asking for things that are already in the lore, be included in the game. So it's not changing anything.

And we've already (in this thread) explained that there ARE female characters that will surely show up on future cards. So why the need to beat the drums for 4 pages in this thread?

Well, let's see...the first 4 packs have been announced...and so far, not a female warlord among them. So keeping the fact that women exist in 40k is a reasonable request. And the debate continues because people with opposing viewpoints keep posting.

I'm surprised that nobody's voiced an opinion regarding women in the military.

Well, let's see...the first 4 packs have been announced...and so far, not a female warlord among them. So keeping the fact that women exist in 40k is a reasonable request. And the debate continues because people with opposing viewpoints keep posting.

True, but let's be fair and put it into perspective. Those four new Warlords thus far announced are for Space Marines, Orkz, Chaos, and Tau. As already discussed, all Space Marines are and were always going to be male, and while Orkz are technically genderless they identify in a male way, so those two were pretty much pre-ordained and don't know if they really count since there is no other way FFG could do it. Chaos' new Warlord is a daemon, which is pretty certainly genderless... I don't know how one considers a gigantic blob of rot and putrefaction to truly be 'male' or 'female'; so while not a gain for the female count, is also not really a count in favor of the male count either, since daemons do not generally identify as male or female. This leaves us with the Tau, who does have a male as their Warlord, but then the Tau were one of the two Warlords from the core set with a female warlord, Shadowsun.

The two factions that FFG really can't do anything gender-wise with are now out of the way, Space Marines and Orkz. Chaos can be all over the place, and they chose to go with a neutral option there (I obviously cannot predict anything with certainty, but I imagine at some point Chaos will have at least four Warlords, one for each of the Gods, and I would expect another male one for Khorne and a female one for Slaanesh, which doesn't give us an abominable ratio when it's all done). The Tau, Astra Militarum, Eldar and Dark Eldar are the primary ones likely to have gender diversity (Chaos is murky because of the prominence of all-male Chaos Space Marines and gender-neutral Daemons), and in the core set we're half and half with them, something that I wouldn't be surprised to see maintained but inverted with the Warlords cycle... though possibly not with the Eldar, which makes me a little sad, based on what has been spoiled.

Let me explain, for the Tau they started with the female Commander Shadowsun, and made the second one the male Aun'Shi. The Dark Eldar had a female Succubus as their first Warlord, I'd anticipate either a male Archon or Incubus (presumably Drahzar) for their next one. Astra Militarum had a male officer as their first Warlord, and we know that they're getting an Inquisitor for their next one. An Inquisitor is a perfect opportunity for a female warlord in this cycle, there are plenty of female Inquisitors to set precedent and possibly draw from... Amberley Vail has been mentioned, there's Adrastia from DoW2, Helynna Valeria from the TT, Jena Orechiel, and a whole lot more if they draw from their own RPGs. The Eldar had a male Farseer for their core set warlord... I would have figured a good choice for their second one would be a female Corsair Prince, Autarch, or maybe an Exarch or even Troupe Master... but we know it's going to be a Phoenix Lord, which makes the likelihood of this even split continuing unlikely, since unless they pick Jain Zar it will be a second Eldar male... but it could be Jain Zar.

Even if it were not, I think things in Conquest are a far cry from being a boy's-only club in terms of Warlords. I think that counting Space Marines and Orkz in terms of the number of males featured, since they are defined-so by canon and cannot be altered by FFG, is somewhat unfair. I think it is instead best to shoot for a reasonable balance between males and females in the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau and Astra Militarum, and a reasonable balance between male, and female, and holy-god-what-the-**** in Chaos. Based on their RPGs, I do believe that FFG gets this, very probably much better than GW does. But we can't be looking or demanding some sort of arbitrary number... what really matters is that the Warlords make sense, and offer interesting diversity of choices, of which gender should only be a small part of the diversity we are looking for, but not an inconsequential or wholly irrelevant part.

I think it's ridiculous that the game doesn't offer canine-based Warlords. It's blatant caninism at work.

All I'm asking is that we have more dog-like humanoids in the game, for diversity's sake of course.

I am white, happy, and in love with life. I am a conservative and I am a Christian; Both my Grandfather's fought in WW2 and Korea so people like us could sit behind our computers and exercise our 1st amendment rights. I am not ashamed, I don't feel guilty for being white and I certainly don't apologize. People need to learn that it is okay to have an opinion that may conflict with someone else s - learn to grow thicker skin or else George Orwell's 1984 will become a reality! Yessss... I believe the Chaos Gods are quite happy here, sowing their seeds of destruction on this thread! Hmmm.....Chaos...... I think I hear Conquest calling me!

how does this thread asking for more female characters make you feel guilty or ashamed to be a white male? so much hyperbole here.