I just mean she would be more confortable if able to choose female themed units and warlords.

Also, i know that a lot of male players would like more female characters too, but thats not the point i'm posting here.

Ah, I see. I have nothing against making your wife more comfortable, but is it really fair to ask a company to change their property for the sole purpose of accommodating her gaming desires?

Is it really fair to ask if having more female characters is significantly changing a property?

Is it really fair to ask if having more female characters is significantly changing a property?

If that's not really what the IP is about, then I suppose it might be.

People have done a good job of pointing out the various types of female units that already exist in the 40k universe, so I have no doubt that we'll be seeing those at some point. I'm not sure what kind of balance can be achieved outside of their inclusion without some kind of radical shift in the makeup of the franchise.

What's wrong with doing something that's good and makes people feel included? Why is the *fluff* more important than people in the real world? And the argument that a game should only represent its supposed audience is faulty at its core - reaching out to people of all sexes, genders, and races makes the game more accessible and increases sales. Other "geek" industries are starting to see the benefits of this approach now with the soaring successes of things like Doctor Who on TV and the Marvel Now initiative in comics.

And, also, it's a *good thing to do*. It's nice. It's friendly. It's right. Showing people that they are welcome in the fantasy world that they're reading about, playing in, collecting, it's the right thing to do.

Putting aside the fact that I'd love to see the men-only thing with the SM thrown out an airlock, I think it would be fantastic to see a bunch of women on the cards. A woman commissar in the AM. Woman grunts. More women in the Eldar and Dark Eldar. And more people of color, too! Why can't there be black Blood Angels, or Asian Space Wolves, or Latino Storm Wardens. It's a setting deep into the future and it's totally made up! There is no verisimilitude to cling to, no "fact". There is only war, and it should be a war that we all get to fight in.

Yeah, i think the main protagonist/antagonist has always been space marines and chaos space marines... both of which have been specifically designated as all-male fraternities.

Orcs have also been specifically all-male due to them being a fungus (lol?)

the other 4 humanoid factions (and neutrals) could easily incorporate female characters/units and not break with any part of the 'fluff', in my opinion... which leaves a very reasonable amount of expansion opportunities...

What's wrong with doing something that's good and makes people feel included? Why is the *fluff* more important than people in the real world? And the argument that a game should only represent its supposed audience is faulty at its core - reaching out to people of all sexes, genders, and races makes the game more accessible and increases sales. Other "geek" industries are starting to see the benefits of this approach now with the soaring successes of things like Doctor Who on TV and the Marvel Now initiative in comics.

And, also, it's a *good thing to do*. It's nice. It's friendly. It's right. Showing people that they are welcome in the fantasy world that they're reading about, playing in, collecting, it's the right thing to do.

Putting aside the fact that I'd love to see the men-only thing with the SM thrown out an airlock, I think it would be fantastic to see a bunch of women on the cards. A woman commissar in the AM. Woman grunts. More women in the Eldar and Dark Eldar. And more people of color, too! Why can't there be black Blood Angels, or Asian Space Wolves, or Latino Storm Wardens. It's a setting deep into the future and it's totally made up! There is no verisimilitude to cling to, no "fact". There is only war, and it should be a war that we all get to fight in.

There's no reason to fix something that isn't broken. The franchise is great just the way it is, and if people don't enjoy playing the game for purely superficial reasons, then I see no reason to cater to their desires.

Are you seriously suggesting that inventing female characters is going to make women want to play card games more? One need look no further than Magic for an equivalent paradigm; female characters abound, and yet the draw for women remains extremely low. On occasion I'll see a female player at an FNM, attempting to enjoy herself while her boyfriend plays at another table. I've never seen a female player at a GP or PTQ, and I can only name one professional female player off the top of my head. Magic is the 800 pound gorilla of card games, and if they can't attract a wider audience then I don't suspect Conquest will either. Perhaps that says more about the nature of women and games then it does women in games.

Before anyone accuses me of misogyny, I'd like to say that I genuinely don't mind the inclusion of more female characters. What I do mind is changing something for the sake of "just because," and even more so "just because I feel like it." If there's no compelling reason to believe that such a change will impact female participation as a whole, what we're left is one person's desire to accommodate his wife on a purely personal level.

"Yeah, war tends to be like that."

umm this is war in the 41st Millennium so comparing it to 20th century war is silly (at best).

As I stated the RPG (which is Canon) has a much better balance of genders so hopefully FFG will use characters and concepts from there.

"Ah, I see. I have nothing against making your wife more comfortable, but is it really fair to ask a company to change their property for the sole purpose of accommodating her gaming desires?"

...the OP (and I) made it clear that we think a better balance of male to female characters would attract more female players (as warmachine and hordes has done). You are almost sounding like one of those MRA guys

"Yeah, war tends to be like that."

umm this is war in the 41st Millennium so comparing it to 20th century war is silly (at best).

War is not an invention of the 20th century; it's been going on since the dawn of civilization, and let's just say that participation of both genders has always been a little skewed.

You are almost sounding like one of those MRA guys

I'm one of those guys who doesn't believe in changing a good game unless there's a compelling reason to do so from a gameplay perspective. I'm sure there are others games that would satisfy your sense of gender balance, if the forthcoming inclusion of already existing female characters doesn't do so.

Are you seriously suggesting that inventing female characters is going to make women want to play card games more?

Yes, I am suggesting that. I don't know what sort of gaming scene you have around you, but the one in my area is densely populated with women and people of color. My local gaming convention community, organized by the wonderful Double Exposure group, runs conventions that regularly draw a 60/40 or tighter parity, and that's a *local* convention group that draws over a thousand people every three months. My local gaming scene here in North Philly is actually just about even, and in many local events there are more women than men. And all of that is because the local gaming community has worked very hard to be inclusive. Events are organized that display sex, gender and race parity. There is open discussion of those concepts in our community, and a desire to always improve and make more and more people feel welcomed.

We're not asking that something be changed *just because* - we would like to see this change because we want to welcome people into our world and share a hobby that we love with them. Changing something because you care about people is, in my opinion, both the most common sense and most noble reason to change. I'm sorry that you don't feel that way, but I wish you did.

We're not asking that something be changed *just because* - we would like to see this change because we want to welcome people into our world and share a hobby that we love with them.

That's a perfectly respectable way to feel, and a goal that can be accomplished without affecting any serious change to the game itself. Again, people who take issue with an activity for purely superficial reasons are missing the mark by a very, very wide margin. Either the game is enjoyable or it isn't.

I'm a fairly liberal person, and there are a lot of social injustices that I take issue with outside the realm of gaming. As much as I support things like gender and racial equality, or even g-y* marriage, those aren't aspects of the Warhammer universe that I feel need to be expanded upon. We all play games for different reasons, but I don't suspect anyone is playing the LCG or tabletop variety to vicariously live out their sociopolitical fantasies. That's certainly not why I play; in fact, you might say I play games to get away from the absurdity of real life. So when it comes to genetically engineered soldiers squaring off against each other in the 41st century, I really couldn't care less if the Salamanders get paid less than the White Scars, or if two battle brothers find love in a foxhole. When you try to make a game too PC, you lose sight of what's important about gaming.

*Apparently that particular word is censored. How sad.

I'm sorry that you don't feel that way, but I wish you did.

Don't be. I like being my own person, and there are far more important places to crusade for equality than a friggin' message board for a card game.

Groan. Knew someone would post something like this eventually in these forums.

Yes, the IP should change entirely just for your sensibilities and your wife's needs. #eyeroll

What's wrong with doing something that's good and makes people feel included? Why is the *fluff* more important than people in the real world? And the argument that a game should only represent its supposed audience is faulty at its core - reaching out to people of all sexes, genders, and races makes the game more accessible and increases sales. Other "geek" industries are starting to see the benefits of this approach now with the soaring successes of things like Doctor Who on TV and the Marvel Now initiative in comics.

And, also, it's a *good thing to do*. It's nice. It's friendly. It's right. Showing people that they are welcome in the fantasy world that they're reading about, playing in, collecting, it's the right thing to do.

Putting aside the fact that I'd love to see the men-only thing with the SM thrown out an airlock, I think it would be fantastic to see a bunch of women on the cards. A woman commissar in the AM. Woman grunts. More women in the Eldar and Dark Eldar. And more people of color, too! Why can't there be black Blood Angels, or Asian Space Wolves, or Latino Storm Wardens. It's a setting deep into the future and it's totally made up! There is no verisimilitude to cling to, no "fact". There is only war, and it should be a war that we all get to fight in.

There's just so much wrong here, I can't.... I just can't even begin to fathom where to start. Nope. Not going to bother.

What's wrong with doing something that's good and makes people feel included? Why is the *fluff* more important than people in the real world? And the argument that a game should only represent its supposed audience is faulty at its core - reaching out to people of all sexes, genders, and races makes the game more accessible and increases sales. Other "geek" industries are starting to see the benefits of this approach now with the soaring successes of things like Doctor Who on TV and the Marvel Now initiative in comics.

And, also, it's a *good thing to do*. It's nice. It's friendly. It's right. Showing people that they are welcome in the fantasy world that they're reading about, playing in, collecting, it's the right thing to do.

Putting aside the fact that I'd love to see the men-only thing with the SM thrown out an airlock, I think it would be fantastic to see a bunch of women on the cards. A woman commissar in the AM. Woman grunts. More women in the Eldar and Dark Eldar. And more people of color, too! Why can't there be black Blood Angels, or Asian Space Wolves, or Latino Storm Wardens. It's a setting deep into the future and it's totally made up! There is no verisimilitude to cling to, no "fact". There is only war, and it should be a war that we all get to fight in.

There's just so much wrong here, I can't.... I just can't even begin to fathom where to start. Nope. Not going to bother.

As far as I see it, you've just quoted an entirely well-reasoned post. Just how is there "so much wrong here?"

FFG seem to be on the ball with this in Netrunner; there's a good split of genders and races (lots of the runners are specifically mixed race, depicting a future where racism is less of an issue). I see no reason why they won't bring that same attitude to Conquest... eventually! As has been mentioned Orks are gender neutral (but typically seem to refer to themselves as male) and Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines are by virtue of the canon necessarily male.

The other races we should be able to see some more diversity, and I hope that will be the case. Eldar are above the concerns of gender, and the Tau run a society based on everyone contributing what they can (their morphology seems to differ across the castes more than anything else?).

I definitely trust FFG to work towards this, hopefully the first cycle of Warlords will see us bag some interesting characters.

Good old fashioned Political Correctness ladies and gentlemen!

Good old fashioned Political Correctness ladies and gentlemen!

so you would prefer the 40k universe to stay a (white) boy's club?

would the inclusion of female characters make you notplay the game?

I'm a fan of the W40k universe since ... erm... a lot of years XD

I don't want FFG to change anything about this setting. In fact i doubt they could change a bit... . But, i know they can keep the flavour and what makes w40k the universe we all love and at the same time create a pool of cards more appealing to different players.

I know Marines are only males. No problem about it. But instead of focusing only in Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc... they could give some love to Salamanders and White Scars and portrait some non-white marines.

The same way, Astra Militarum can focus on sororitas or make room for some female inquisitors. That is correct according to the setting, but will please some players looking for characters to identify with.

Eldar, Tau and Dark Eldar also have plenty of space for female characters, and we dont have to modify a single bit of the official setting.

And orks... well, just let orks whaaaaagh!!!

What's wrong with doing something that's good and makes people feel included? Why is the *fluff* more important than people in the real world? And the argument that a game should only represent its supposed audience is faulty at its core - reaching out to people of all sexes, genders, and races makes the game more accessible and increases sales. Other "geek" industries are starting to see the benefits of this approach now with the soaring successes of things like Doctor Who on TV and the Marvel Now initiative in comics.

And, also, it's a *good thing to do*. It's nice. It's friendly. It's right. Showing people that they are welcome in the fantasy world that they're reading about, playing in, collecting, it's the right thing to do.

Because without the fluff, it won't be 40k, it'd be something else. Everyone is welcome in 40k, I don't see signs screaming "no women". The product and the universe are what they are, forgive the cliché. At the risk of going off on a completely different subject here, this is what is prevalent in our society today, people wanting everything to be changed to accommodate them and their desires and preferences, instead of maybe just letting it be. I can understand when it is a major social injustice, but this does not qualify. By this line of reasoning, I should demand that romance novels include more violence and action because they are not inclusive of me as a man. Or I can just choose to not read them and read 40k books instead.

so you would prefer the 40k universe to stay a (white) boy's club?

would the inclusion of female characters make you notplay the game?

Why do you keep asking these questions? Are you some kind of racial/gender troll? NO ONE has said that they would stop playing the game. NO ONE has said that they have an issue with the inclusion of more female or minority characters. The issue is that people seem to want the universe to accommodate to their preferences, instead of accepting as it is. Characters will come out, there is no doubt about it. Specially now, because FFG folks may not post much here, but they do pay attention to what is being said.

"NO ONE has said that they have an issue with the inclusion of more female or minority characters"

except they have:

"There's just so much wrong here, I can't.... I just can't even begin to fathom where to start. Nope. Not going to bother."

"is it really fair to ask if having more female characters is significantly changing a property?"

As I stated earlier (and on multiple occasions) I think FFG is going to be using art and lore from their RPGs which seem to have a much better gender/race balance than the TTG.

What's wrong with doing something that's good and makes people feel included? Why is the *fluff* more important than people in the real world? And the argument that a game should only represent its supposed audience is faulty at its core - reaching out to people of all sexes, genders, and races makes the game more accessible and increases sales. Other "geek" industries are starting to see the benefits of this approach now with the soaring successes of things like Doctor Who on TV and the Marvel Now initiative in comics.

And, also, it's a *good thing to do*. It's nice. It's friendly. It's right. Showing people that they are welcome in the fantasy world that they're reading about, playing in, collecting, it's the right thing to do.

Because without the fluff, it won't be 40k, it'd be something else. Everyone is welcome in 40k, I don't see signs screaming "no women". The product and the universe are what they are, forgive the cliché. At the risk of going off on a completely different subject here, this is what is prevalent in our society today, people wanting everything to be changed to accommodate them and their desires and preferences, instead of maybe just letting it be. I can understand when it is a major social injustice, but this does not qualify. By this line of reasoning, I should demand that romance novels include more violence and action because they are not inclusive of me as a man. Or I can just choose to not read them and read 40k books instead.

Well, no-one has said it's a MAJOR injustice. The world has changed since the 40K universe was first put down on paper, maybe there are a few ways they can change the way the present some of the characters or races to include a bit more diversity. I don't see how this would be going against canon anywhere (and in fact, would represent much less of a change than other things they've retconned over the years).

As to why... well, there's something I read recently that struck me and is possibly relevant here:

"I took my little brother (who falls on the autism spectrum) to see Guardians of the Galaxy and after this scene, he lit up like a Christmas tree and screamed 'He's like me! He can't do metaphors!' And for the rest of the film my brother stared at Drax in a state of rapture.

So while I adored Guardians of the Galaxy as a great fun loving film with cool characters I can do nothing but thank Marvel Studios and Dave Bautista for finally bringing a superhero to the screen that my little brother can relate to."

Maybe it doesn't really make a difference for you or me. Think about when you were a kid, though, and first starting to mess around with board, card, and computer games. Might it make a little bit of a difference to young girls (or LGBT, or non-white people) to see someone like them represented in the game?

reading the new lore in "only war" there are multiple females shown/described including a regiment commander and a commissar.

character creation says this:

"The ranks of the Imperial Guard are as varied as the countless
worlds they hail from across the galaxy. All soldiers are equal
in the eyes of the Departmento Munitorum and the Emperor.
In ONLY WAR, players are free to choose the gender and
appearance of their character as they wish."

I know Orks and space marines are sausage fests but are there expansions that talk about creating characters from the other "factions"?

regarding the salamander space marines...I remember that their dark skin was described as a "flaw" in their geneseed...has that been removed or is it still the reason they have dark skin?

They have dark skin due to the planet that are from, not a flaw.

Space Marines are as varied race wise, but people don't typically notice since they are commonly depicted as "white" (partly because Ultramarines are the de facto poster child for SM)despite often having names that are anything but (Crimson Fists have clearly Latin names for example). Plus in the year 40,000 I doubt race matters as much or at all, as by then it'd probably be super intermixed as to not even be relevant.

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Posted Today, 09:37 AM

"NO ONE has said that they have an issue with the inclusion of more female or minority characters"

except they have:

"There's just so much wrong here, I can't.... I just can't even begin to fathom where to start. Nope. Not going to bother."

"is it really fair to ask if having more female characters is significantly changing a property?"

As I stated earlier (and on multiple occasions) I think FFG is going to be using art and lore from their RPGs which seem to have a much better gender/race balance than the TTG.

Not what they were saying at all. First one was responding to things like having black Blood Angels or Asian Space Wolves. That would be ridiculous because the gene-seed controls that and since it is one specific primarch's gene-seed, it cannot be anything other than what the primarch was. The second one was actually responding to someone who wasn't having an issue with more females, he was having an issue with more females for the sake of making someone comfortable.

Another thing is that I believe we are jumping the gun a bit here. We don't know what plans for characters FFG has. I have no doubt that there will be plenty of female and other characters, your last statement supports that and you're probably right on that account.

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Posted Today, 09:37 AM

"NO ONE has said that they have an issue with the inclusion of more female or minority characters"

except they have:

"There's just so much wrong here, I can't.... I just can't even begin to fathom where to start. Nope. Not going to bother."

"is it really fair to ask if having more female characters is significantly changing a property?"

As I stated earlier (and on multiple occasions) I think FFG is going to be using art and lore from their RPGs which seem to have a much better gender/race balance than the TTG.

Not what they were saying at all. First one was responding to things like having black Blood Angels or Asian Space Wolves. That would be ridiculous because the gene-seed controls that and since it is one specific primarch's gene-seed, it cannot be anything other than what the primarch was. The second one was actually responding to someone who wasn't having an issue with more females, he was having an issue with more females for the sake of making someone comfortable.

The first one was seemingly responding to a whole post that included what you mentioned, but also including more females as well.

And considering they said there was 'so much wrong here' in terms of the quoted post, we can only assume that they have just as much an issue with this:

A woman commissar in the AM

as they do with this:

Asian Space Wolves

While there may be fluff to explain the Asian Space wolf....what fluff is there against a woman commissar?

Especially when there seems to have been at least one female commissar (Commissar-General at that) IN the fluff!

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commissar#Notable_Commissars

Of course, that poster is free to come back and clarify their position.