In our recent games when the players role Despair it seeing to be much more despairing then the Triumphs are Triumphy.

In your game does it feel like these two outcomes are even? Or could this just be due to a a lack a creatively by the players?

What do kind of great actions has your players used triumphs for to help out? Especially on Combat roles, for uses that were for more they just defined game mechanics.

An Example of our Despair role was a player missed with his blaster pistol that was set for stun. The outcome of the roll was a failure with Despair and our GM had the blaster not be on stun and kill one of the NPC standing right next to the original target, who we needed to work with.

A 2 ^nd example of despair was when we killed a guy, it turned out to be the space stations son. So we instantly became target # 1, and gained some obligation of Bounty.

Thanks!

It is all about the creativity of the players. The advantages and triumphs in our game we let the Players decide what happened and I(the GM) get to decide what happens with the disadvantages and despair. What is great is it makes the game more competitive between the GM and PC's. As long as the GM is doing some crazy stuff (that fits within certain logistical restrictrions that you can set with your players) then they too will want to do some crazy stuff and it builds for a lot better story. Allow them some freedom.

I think the outcomes are even if you use the combat examples as a guide. Upgrading ability (Triumph) and difficulty (Despair) dice on future rolls aren't game-breakers, and certainly are "even" in their application.

An Example of our Despair role was a player missed with his blaster pistol that was set for stun. The outcome of the roll was a failure with Despair and our GM had the blaster not be on stun and kill one of the NPC standing right next to the original target, who we needed to work with.

I'd say the GM went overboard on that one. The more common application might be to have the blaster run out of ammo.

Both players and GMs need to keep in mind that as the experience level of the PCs and the opposition ramps up, Triumphs and Despairs are going to become quite common. If you're rolling 3 yellow dice, the odds of a Triumph are almost 1 in 4. So despite all the fluff text and hoopla about "game changing events" and whatnot, using the combat examples as a guide shows that the application can be fairly tame.

A 2 ^nd example of despair was when we killed a guy, it turned out to be the space stations son. So we instantly became target # 1, and gained some obligation of Bounty.

Ok, that just seems silly. If every Despair led to Obligation, nobody would ever leave home.

Your GM is being way too heavy-handed in those situations. If you had rolled a ton of Threat along with the Despair in the first instances, I could understand the whole pistol not being on stun and shooting the target-engaged NPC. That would be fair. But that's two effects (negating a maneuver AND shooting the unintended target) for one Despair.

In the second situation, just, NO. Obligation is a player resource. It should never, IMO and in the opinion of the developers and AFAIK the gaming community at large, be dealt out as the result of Despair, "bad RP decision," or anything else other than a mutually agreed deal between the player and GM.

I have recently adopted the idea of letting the players make suggestions for Triumphs and Despair. When someone rolls one, I ask the whole table either, "What would be really awesome if it happens right now?" or "What is the worst thing that could happen right now?" After hearing several options, I pick the one that suits the game the best or seems to generate the most excitement at the table, giving priority to suggestions by the person who actually rolled it. (Keeping GM override powers if I have something particular planned) Sometimes the suggestion by the roller isn't as powerful or meta as others, perhaps cool fluff, but if they suggested it, then you know they will like it. It's a good way to keep players engaged with the game too!

I also give the players the option of using a triumph to find random loot, from my loot table, if they can't think of anything else. I've been running modules and they are pretty light in terms of loot and cash payouts, so my group uses triumphs for loot at least 50% of the time. http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/103538-alternate-loot-table/#entry1043657

My players and I tend to like immediate effects rather than just boosts to future rolls. It's less bookkeeping and more interesting in my opinion.

One thing that I do run into a lot is the players rolling a ton of either advantage or threat (like 4-7) in situations where only a success or failure matters. I'm never quite sure what to do in those situations and usually just throw out one bed/good thing and let the other stuff drop. Not to derail the thread, but how do others handle this? I'd hate to throw out 5 strain for trying to open a door or on a knowledge check.

I think the "weapon not set on stun/important NPC is hit" combination is two things, therefore it should require two despair. Yes, there are situations with more than one despair. Therefore as a GM you need to keep in mind that you have to be able to escalate even further, if necessary.

The things that always felt least Triumphy to me were Smooth Talker and Knowledge Specialization. You get 1 extra success. Whoop-dee-doo. I find these talents incredibly underwhelming. They might give you the extra successes you desperately need, but does it feel triumphy? I need to do something to these talents, but I don't yet know what.

I don't mean to be rude here, but it sounds like your GM needs to go back and actually learn the rules of the game. First he could spend the Despair on hitting the guy next to your target if they are close enough. The CRB actually states engaged. To trigger another effect a second Despair would need to have been on the table on the same roll.

As for assigning obligation through a Despair, should never happen. Obligation should never be an uncontrolled consequence. Players should always have the option to take on the extra obligation or not. There would be very few circumstances that I would just assign obligation to the group without their consent. Very few, and I would only do that like one time in a campaign, and it would be something huge and pivotal to the story and game. One example would be they see a good comrade get murdered and I would give each player 1 point of obligation for revenge...something important but not overwhelming to them, and never if it pushed the group close to 100. Obligation is not a punishment or penalty to players, it is a resource that they get something back from as well. In the most basic use, it could be they need some cash, and a guy will give them the cash in exchange for a "favor".

Despairs should typically result in out of ammo, especially if the player has Spare Clip, perhaps they get thier weapon damaged by one step, they drop thier weapon, for other non combat skill checks, perhaps the comlinks goes off unexpectantly, the Datapad suddenly broadcasts a live news event, or an alert goes off letting you know that the droid repairs are complete in MoisturefarmVille, and that your Jawa farmers miss you and you should come back soon. Or they are sneaking up behind a bikerscout and step on a twig, alerting the scout trooper, allowing to him to escape, and the player is then forced to chase him down, finding some unexpected allies..

@ianinak, players should always give the results to Triumphs and Advantages. That is called out in the CRB. There is nothing wrong having the players give suggestions for Despairs and Threats, but I usually have some in the back of mind, and no point in going around the table for those.

I don't like the idea of using a Triumph for finding random loot. That pretty much defeats the purpose of the narrative system. There are so many more wonderful things that should happen with a Triumph, not finding another comlink on the dead guy. But if that is what your players enjoy, then that's great that you give them that opportunity.

@Gransolo, if you feel these Talents are underpowered, one thing you might do is to modify them: Instead of just one extra success, perhaps on the Triumph they get one extra success per rank in that skill.

@Damnkid3, talk to your GM and express your concerns. Some GMs are open to feedback and criticism, others are not. I hope your GM is, that's how we learn to become better at stuff... It should never really boil down to who is right or wrong, it should be about the story telling process and the groups fun level, and let him know that his actions are having an adverse effect to the story telling, and the groups fun level. If he is interested in becoming a better GM, he will be open to new ideas, and will listen to player feedback. If he does not want/listen to your feedback, perhaps he is too stuck in his ways, and you may be better off finding a new GM...

I don't like the idea of using a Triumph for finding random loot. That pretty much defeats the purpose of the narrative system.

Depends. That's one of the first things my players did (and the only time they've asked). They found about 8000 (street value) credits worth of spice. Getting rid of that spice took 2 sessions and resulted in a lot of fun and mayhem, and they never got full value for it anyway before losing everything getting captured by slavers. So all in all I'd say it was worth it

I'm going to echo what the community is saying here; your GM is being way too harsh with his Despair results if those two examples are indicative of what you're experiencing in your games.

If one of my PCs is shooting at someone and succeeds but rolls a Despair, I'll have that opponent fall into some console and trigger some unfortunate effect that obscures combat, affecting the next character's check (Upgrade difficulty). I'll have the shooter run out of ammo. If the target survives the hit I'll spend the despair to have them call in reinforcements (significant advantage in the encounter). I would never pull something as cockamamie as "the target was actually the station owner's son!" or "you actually shot a different target!"

And for Obligation? A PC should get obligation for "bad choices" as long as they have an idea it's coming. Never because of a Despair result unless the PC is aware beforehand that their action is likely to earn them some form of Obligation beforehand. Like cheating at sabaac; the PC knows if he's caught he's going to get in trouble of some sort. If he rolls a despair, he's likely to earn some Criminal obligation for being a cheat at cards. Or possibly a Bounty if he manages to get out with the cash he's cheated from the other players. Or possibly even Blackmail or Favor if the guy running the game can hold it over the PC's head. But the PC knew that going into the roll, what Jay Little calls "The Social Contract". He accepted that possible consequence before he rolled the dice.

Back to your "Blasting the Station Owner's Kid" example; if the NPC was already scripted to be the son of the Space Station owner before the encounter started, that's a different story. That's plot. But making that up on the fly because you rolled a Despair? That's BS Gamemastering.

If I pulled on my PCs what your GM did, I would start to lose players.

In one game I ran my character missed with Triumph while shooting at a Tusken Raider on Tatooine who was at the top of a rocky cliff firing down upon the characters. They missed the raider but hit the cliff face causing a collapse and forced the Tusken Raider to make a coordination check or fall over the cliff which he failed and fell and was defeated.

So triumph can be epic too

My players mostly use Triumphs to trigger critical hits. As for Despair I mostly use it as the rules suggest in combat (out of ammo, upgrade next check, user falls down, weapon used suffers a malfunction) though I'm bit more creative with social encounters.

For instance; the party was trying to get into a spaceport guarded by stormtroopers and they didn't have the proper clearance. They didn't want to start a firefight in the middle of a crowded street so they tried Deception instead. The player succeeded but generated a despair. He told them that there was a Rebel agitator riling up the crowd a few blocks down the road. The Stormies believed him (one of three squads of troopers leaves to investigate) but, due to the despair, decided to take him into custody as a witness. Since he was carrying several illegal weapons at the time (including a Disruptor Pistol!) he had to book it, though through a good stealth check the entire party managed to get inside as the troopers were distracted by the nonexistent agitator and the lying player character losing them in a crowd.

As for your GMs use of Triumph/Despair, I'm with the above posters. He's being rather harsh; Despair is serious but shouldn't totally ruin you. That should require multiple Despair and Threat (and possibly a dark side destiny point introducing a diabolus ex machina) and even then it should be used sparingly.

I had a similar situation happen when running Operation: Shadowpoint.

I've had more triumphs than despairs rolled, but they are appearing more now that my PCs are progressing.

Despair in Perception vs Stealth: a pirate captain is tracking down a PC hiding in an energy spider cave, but he doesn't hear the PC, rather he hears the sound of a large energy spider munching on one of his fallen crew. The pirate leader ran out of the cave without further searching.

A player called out her shot on a minion and proceeded to take him out and the guy behind him. I personally love minion vs PC combat.

Triumph in Deception to create a false path in energy spider cave: the player chose to find a fallen pirate with a head scarf to cover his bothan fur, and he took his uniform.

When I roll a T or D I try to create whatever mayhem the PCs weren't expecting. I've been trying to encourage my players to branch out and get creative.

Sometimes I like to use despair for less immediate effect.

Recently one of my players (A bounty hunter) was tailing an extremely cautious suspect and rolled a despair. I told him casually to not worry about it but secretly the real acquisition spotted his character and the next day was waiting with his gang to ambush her.

She and her partner got out but only after an epic barroom brawl and a mad chase.

I've found that the more creative the effect of the Triumph/Despair, the more interesting it is to the session. As a politico, I rarely (i.e. never) roll triumphs in combat. When our hired gun does it with his 6 agility, tricked out auto-fire rifle, sure, toss out the triumphs as criticals or more auto-fire. When the mechanic with a Corellian Cutlass gets a triumph though, or the AK droid with the missile tube, we usually come up with things like "Not only do you hit your target, but the resulting blast caves in part of the wrecked ship, splitting your opponents into 2 smaller, much easier groups," or "Your blade cuts through his armor and stabs a portion of his jetpack, which sends him flying from engaged to long range."

In noncombat situations, I find Triumphs to be more fun. Maybe someone I sold fruit to in session 1 shows back up 20 sessions later in a completely different portion of the galaxy and trips up the fleeing villain (which actually happened). A despair and a triumph: The hutt lord who we owe debt/betrayal Obligation to agrees to chase off incoming CorSec Sector Ranger from Hutt Space, but his protocol droid accidentally mentions our destination outside of Hutt jurisdiction and gets immediately dismantled by an angry hutt.

Despairs in combat should be running out of ammo, damage to the gun, or considerable changes to the battlefield that makes things harder for the PCs to succeed. In social situations, it would be misinformation, forming enemies accidentally, or making future social checks more difficult. I agree that no obligation should be added due to despair unless Obligation was directly being rolled for in something like a Charm check.

If it was a single Despair it sounds a little harsh, shooting the person next to the intended target fine, but out right killing them is a little too far, critical injury maybe.

My group is getting much more inventive with Despair/Triumphs, it’s taken them a while to get into the swing of things, last session the droid kill bot took a shot at some Rodians boarding their ship trying to escape the planet, he missed but with a triumph, he chose to hit the hydraulics’ on the cargo ramp jamming it open, hoping this would give the group time to return to their ship and pursue as the Rodians could not leave the planet until the ramp was closed, the Rodians did a on the fly repair but the delay was sufficient to allow the players to return to their ship scan and catch the Rodians up, ensue epic space battle with the Rodians escaping into hyperspace with PC’s only needing one more shot to take them out.

I also agree that more creative the players suggestions the more enjoyable the sessions are, they bring a little more of their character into the result than I as a GM can, which makes them shine even when they mess up.

An awesome sample of Despair that I used on my games is when my players's character was running to arrive to an area where his wife was shoot down and needed immediatelly medical assistance, but, during the path a band of imperial troopers/officers blocked his path. I used the Despair as an accidental missed shot that blow up the panel of a blast door delaying him.

I love that scene

I think my favorite Triumph to date was tracking our target Rodian onto a shuttle bound off planet, and as we're going through security, I rolled 2 Triumphs on my deception check to get past security with our weapons. "This is the Corellian noble Dex Hallion, and he absolutely has to get on this shuttle departing. Yes yes, I know he has that sword on his hip, but *psst* (He's not exactly all there in the head, and he thinks that his sword is his dead wife. Anyone who has ever tried to remove it from him, well let's just say he causes quite a ruckus. Now I don't want any casualties around here just because we couldn't let this one slide, hmm? I'm his physician, hence why I carry this rifle loaded with tranq darts. Just let us aboard quietly, it'll make everyone's life a lot easier.)"

One memorable Triumph occurred when a player attempted to hack into an enemy base's security system. We settled on his Triumph gaining him complete access to all security cameras and blast doors. He was able to monitor the entire base and open and close doors in such a way that the team remained one step ahead of security personnel. They even gained their main objective without the final combat encounter. Honestly, even as the GM, I felt that it was quite awesome for the big bad at the end to get within mere feet of the heroes, only to have a big blast door slam down right in front of him. DENIED!

One memorable Triumph occurred when a player attempted to hack into an enemy base's security system. We settled on his Triumph gaining him complete access to all security cameras and blast doors. He was able to monitor the entire base and open and close doors in such a way that the team remained one step ahead of security personnel. They even gained their main objective without the final combat encounter. Honestly, even as the GM, I felt that it was quite awesome for the big bad at the end to get within mere feet of the heroes, only to have a big blast door slam down right in front of him. DENIED!

That seems a bit much for a single Triumph. Maybe give him that access for a short period of time, but the counter-measures team would be coming after him soon, and then he would have to defend himself and the systems against them.

Now, if he kept rolling Triumphs, or he rolled multiple Triumphs on a single check, then sure — go gangbusters.

But you don’t want to give the whole store away, at least not too easily. Otherwise, what can they do next time to top what happened this time?

I should have clarified that this was on top of multiple successes and advantages over a period of time tinkering with the security system while split from most of the team. Earlier, the hacker used the combo of a major story circumstance, his history as a scientist, and good social rolls to impersonate a researcher who barely made it through the wilderness to the remote compound. He was mostly ignored by security personnel as the know-it-all Drall who always made sure to wax philosophical on xenobiology whenever talking to anyone. Basically security staff, to their detriment, paid little attention to him, and he used every chance he got to hack into their security system. With a 5 Intellect (that Drall Int bonus ) and several successes, he had gained quite a foothold on the security system even before the Triumph near the end. Last but not least, the game started late and we were already in overtime, so with everyone willing, we went with our little Drall scientist getting the last push into the endzone .

I think my favorite Triumph to date was tracking our target Rodian onto a shuttle bound off planet, and as we're going through security, I rolled 2 Triumphs on my deception check to get past security with our weapons. "This is the Corellian noble Dex Hallion, and he absolutely has to get on this shuttle departing. Yes yes, I know he has that sword on his hip, but *psst* (He's not exactly all there in the head, and he thinks that his sword is his dead wife. Anyone who has ever tried to remove it from him, well let's just say he causes quite a ruckus. Now I don't want any casualties around here just because we couldn't let this one slide, hmm? I'm his physician, hence why I carry this rifle loaded with tranq darts. Just let us aboard quietly, it'll make everyone's life a lot easier.)"

That's awesomely creative. One thing to consider though. Were 2 Triumphs really needed to do this? Afterall, the intent of the Deception roll was actually to, "get past security with our weapons". Isn't that (only) what you did in the end? Wouldn't a regular success (verus high difficulty I would imagine) have the exact same result?

It's a very imaginative explanation for a successful Deception roll, but in the end you didn't gain anything extra for the Triumphs. IF the intent was to get your SINGLE player's weapon past the guards, and you ended up getting the entire partys' weapons past the guards, then the Triumphs were used. If the difficulty was based upon you deceiving the guard to get everyone's weapons past the guards (as you stated), then I think you should have gotten something extra for those 2 Triumphs - "****, here are some extra reloads and you can borrow my shock baton, keep that crazy in line please!"

I think that the Triumphs were treated as letting each weapon pass security. While successes would have let us pass, it would have probably been with a drawback like "Oh, he's psychotic? Well we can have an air marshal by his side so he doesn't get too riled up. And of course you'll be next to him the entire time, so the flight will be safe." With the Triumphs, we were let on to the ship with no negatives to speak of.

I think that the Triumphs were treated as letting each weapon pass security. While successes would have let us pass, it would have probably been with a drawback like "Oh, he's psychotic? Well we can have an air marshal by his side so he doesn't get too riled up. And of course you'll be next to him the entire time, so the flight will be safe." With the Triumphs, we were let on to the ship with no negatives to speak of.

What you just described though was more of a Success with a Despair to me - yes you get to keep your weapons but now you have an air marshal following your every move. Successes do not automatically come with "negatives" in my opinion. That's what Disadvantages and Despairs are. But I suppose it could depend on the exact wording of the action/task.

It's been a few months, but I believe the set up to the roll was "I want to get past the guard by claiming that he is a Corellian noble and that I'm his physician." Once the dice came up we described the result as the above. I think that falls more in line with your description of what the results were.