Does the Female Villager have line of sight on Belthir? Does the male have line of sight on Belthir?

Yes and yes. Both from the corner that the two villager spaces share, there's a straight line to the corner Belthir shares with the obstacle space. The male villager also has a line to the diagonal corner from that.

I concur... it is why I am thinking that the LOS rules in IA might be superior. The LOS rules in IA though also permit you to essentially "get cover"... there are ways you can position yourself so you have LOS for a ranged attack but your opponent can't reciprocate. That has potential game impacting implications for ranged combat.

Yes and yes. Both from the corner that the two villager spaces share, there's a straight line to the corner Belthir shares with the obstacle space. The male villager also has a line to the diagonal corner from that.

Yes and yes. Both from the corner that the two villager spaces share, there's a straight line to the corner Belthir shares with the obstacle space. The male villager also has a line to the diagonal corner from that.

Thank you Zaltyre. I was a little tired and off my game last night as the OL. I knew that LOS could go through the corners of two diagonal blocked spaces (like in the vanilla directions booklet) but some reason I didn't think it could pass through the monster's corner (zombie on the example). I was mistaken. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes and yes. Both from the corner that the two villager spaces share, there's a straight line to the corner Belthir shares with the obstacle space. The male villager also has a line to the diagonal corner from that.

Thank you Zaltyre. I was a little tired and off my game last night as the OL. I knew that LOS could go through the corners of two diagonal blocked spaces (like in the vanilla directions booklet) but some reason I didn't think it could pass through the monster's corner (zombie on the example). I was mistaken. Thanks for the clarification.

No problem. For the purposes of line of sight, friendly figure/monster/obstacle/door makes no difference (unless you happen to be a wildlander with eagle eyes.) Every space either blocks LOS, or doesn't. As long as you can draw a line from one corner to another that doesn't:

1) Pass through any spaces that block LOS

or

2) Go along the edge of spaces that block LOS

you're good.

AiriusTorpora, the IA rules may allow for better cover, but I'm hesitant to say that makes them superior. As I've said before, something I value very much about the D2E LOS rules is that they're remarkably simple to execute- in my eyes, that goes a long way, even if it doesn't always reflect the reality of certain battle situations.

I was actually expressing concern about "cover" ... Descent was engineered with the idea that LOS reciprocity is always true from a game balance/testing perspective.

The Imperial Assault rules are different. It's up to you and what your gaming group wants to decide if they're superior or not. They're not more "realistic" (not that I think that's a good goal in a game like this,) they're slower (IE will take more time to adjudicate and will make games longer because LOS is harder to get,) and while they solve some perceived "problems" in the Descent LOS rules they introduce a whole host of their own "problems". On the other hand, shooting at stuff from behind cover has a very Star Wars feel to it.

In the end, some people may prefer one way of doing things, some may prefer the other. Neither is better for game balance in any meaningful way, but one or the other may suit you better.

As long as they come up with a set of line of sight rules for 3rd edition that are easy to execute, are fair to ranged combat without making it too good, and get rid of the case of the zombie blocking line of sight to itself, I'm happy.

Yes and yes. Both from the corner that the two villager spaces share, there's a straight line to the corner Belthir shares with the obstacle space. The male villager also has a line to the diagonal corner from that.

I would have sworn that the male NPC doesn't have LOS. I find hard to explain why that should be possible.

Strange, but true! The male NPC can draw a line from a corner of his space to a corner of Belthir's space and that line only passes through the corners of blocked spaces. So long as the line does not pass through the edge or center of any blocked space, then it is a valid LoS line.

As for explaining how that is possible... that beats me.. its not the greatest system thematically.. but it is very quick to determine, so it works

Its not like this game is trying by any stretch to be an accurate representation of reality, even high fantasy reality.

If you don't understand the whole "zombie blocks line of site to itself" thing, just recast the explanation (the way it SHOULD be explained.) The zombie isn't blocking line of site to itself. The ROCK is blocking line of site to the zombie. When you're sighting through those two rocks, you cannot touch a valid part of the zombie (IE a corner) therefore the rocks block line of sight.

I'm probably just going to house rule that corners also block LoS since I could never narratively motivate to my players that an object in the path between 2 spaces can only block LoS if the line is horizontal or vertical but never diagonal.

I'm probably just going to house rule that corners also block LoS since I could never narratively motivate to my players that an object in the path between 2 spaces can only block LoS if the line is horizontal or vertical but never diagonal.

Just FYI, that will significantly alter ranged combat, and several hero skills (like Army of Death.) I advise you to stick with the LOS rules as written if possible. If you want an explanation, it's this- the system is the way it is because it makes it incredibly simple to determine whether space A has LOS to space B. Whether or not a person standing in space A could actually see a person standing in space B is irrelevant.

This is a strategy game, not a simulation. Magic rocks casting fireballs at dragons aren't a problem for you, but the fact that an arbitrary game mechanic - ie, a square grid for movement - requires some approximation for line of site is your show-stopper?

Not a showstopper, but game mechanics are aesthetically there to abstract the real world into an environment that you can later make more interesting, through for example magic, by adding exceptions to this abstraction of reality via additional mechanics.

Just FYI, that will significantly alter ranged combat, and several hero skills (like Army of Death.) I advise you to stick with the LOS rules as written if possible. If you want an explanation, it's this- the system is the way it is because it makes it incredibly simple to determine whether space A has LOS to space B. Whether or not a person standing in space A could actually see a person standing in space B is irrelevant.

Hmmm really? It would only affect LoS in exact 45 degree angles and I always felt AoD is overpowered anyway. Is there other affects I haven't thought of?

Army of Death isn't overpowered. That one skill is the only reason the Necromancer is even playable, it's an underpowered class at best as is.

Just FYI, that will significantly alter ranged combat, and several hero skills (like Army of Death.) I advise you to stick with the LOS rules as written if possible. If you want an explanation, it's this- the system is the way it is because it makes it incredibly simple to determine whether space A has LOS to space B. Whether or not a person standing in space A could actually see a person standing in space B is irrelevant.

Hmmm really? It would only affect LoS in exact 45 degree angles and I always felt AoD is overpowered anyway. Is there other affects I haven't thought of?

I would say so.

The diagram at the top shows the LOS rules as they are. Circles outlined in yellow are in spaces that can be seen by a figure in the blue token's space. Circles outlined in red cannot be seen.

The diagram at the bottom shows what happens when corners of blocked spaces block LOS. I call that a drastic change to ranged combat, and to skills like the Disciple's "Radiant Light" or Necromancer's "Army of Death", or even Thief's "Sneaky."

EDIT: Mistake in the diagram. The two closest red circles to the left of the blue token could still be seen if you draw a line from the right top corner. That's what I get for rushing.

To put it differently, these are all the lines of sight between obstacles or around other figures you'd be eliminating. It's not just 45 degree lines. Additionally, two figures standing across a diagonal blockage are still adjacent, and can still attack melee- would you outlaw that as well? What if it was a reach from one space further away? What about an adjacent ranged attack? My point is that outlawing corner LOS completely changes the entire attack system, and has consequences well beyond not allowing 45 degree attacks.

So, it boils down to a choose between thematically or mechanically correct. If I pick one I have to take from the other. Considering my players being old pen and paper players I think they would still prefer the more "logical" solution even if it means having to choose better placement and might Nerf ranged combat somewhat as long as the same rule applies to monsters. Thanks for the visual aid! It illustrated the graveness of the change very well.