Hello all. I've been reading the forums avidly for the past few weeks but first post, so apologies in advance if I ask any questions that have been covered before.

I'm about to start playing in a F & D beta game, we're currently in the midst of character generation. I'd like to play a warrior-monk type character at least in part inspired by Shaolin style martial arts. Essentially, to take to take some of the implied inspiration for Jedi from Eastern philosophy within the films and make it more overt. I'm planning a Mirialan Soresu Defender, but I have a couple of questions regarding combat mechanics.

As I understand it, characters can dual-wield weapons, with increased difficulty dependent upon the weapons being of the same type, but with the possibility of a second attack with the secondary weapon if the first attack is successful. Now, within the films, and partly as the result of a succesful lightsaber attack being so, um, decisive , we often see Jedi characters parrying lightsaber attacks but then following up with quick punches, kicks, elbows etc which gains them temporary advantage. After a quick-readthrough there doesn't seem to be scope for this in the combat mechanics unless the character is dual-wielding another weapon (even if it's knuckle dusters or something). I understand that it's a narrative based system, so some people might be happy to assume that when a lightsaber check is made some level of unarmed combat is implied if it fits the context. However, mechanically, in a lightsaber duel there doesn't seem to be a difference between a lightsaber wielder who's also a martial arts master and another that's completely unskilled.

I really like the way the Parry talent stops Lightsaber duels being a first successful attack wins type scenario, and the way Strain can be used to represent a character being forced back or reeling from an intense exchange of strikes; I wouldn't want to replace that in any way, but I like the idea that maybe an opponent manages to parry your lightsaber attack and not take any damage, but in the process you manage to land an elbow or a headbutt that does a small amount of damage or a lucky knockdown - and I guess what I'm asking is whether one's proficiency in doing so should be based on the character's skill at unarmed combat.

Within the concept of the character I have in mind I would ideally invest in Brawl, Melee and Lightsaber skills. I want my character to be a student of different combat disciplines, and specifically if they do focus on lightsaber combat to have the potential to take down opponents using non-lethal means. But realistically if lightsaber combat doesn't have the potential to incorporate Brawl then I feel I might be better off from a gaming perspective to focus purely on the Lightsaber skill and talent tree, rather than sink points into a skill which (I imagine) will be of limited use.

So: can (or should) a character dual-wield a lightsaber and unarmed?

And how advantageous is it for a lightsaber focused character to include points in Brawl?

A character can wield a lightsaber and use unarmed attacks.

The problem is that you're going to be using the worst of the two skills to do so, and if you've taken one of the Form Technique talents that lets you use a characteristic other than Brawn for the Lightsaber skill, you're also using the worse of Brawn and that other characteristic.

So if you had Brawn 3, Lightsaber 2, and Brawl 1, you'd be attacking using Brawn and Brawl, as Brawl's the skill with the lesser value, even if you've designated your lightsaber as the primary weapon.

Now if you had Shien Technique talent (replace Brawn with Cunning for Lightsaber combat checks), with Brawn 2, Cunning 3, Lightsaber 2, and Brawl 1, you'd be rolling Brawn (lower of the two characteristics) and Brawl (lower of the two skills) even if again you designated your lightsaber as the primary weapon.

Since attacking with two weapons results in a +1 increase to the difficulty, until you've got both skills (and characteristics) at equal ranks, you're generally better off just using two of the same weapon, such as two lightsabers or two unarmed attacks (which per the devs is perfectly allowable).

For your character concept, as Dono said, you want to have Brawl and Lightsaber at equal ranks (since you'd be using the worse number for the combined roll.) That's not terribly difficult, since the maximum* is 2 anyway. Also, you want to use Brawn anyway (because it's the only characteristic for Brawl checks,) so you can ignore the lightsaber form talent that changes the characteristic (if any.)

I recommend raising Brawn to 4. You could leave Lightsaber and Brawl at 1 and still have a respectable die code of 3 green and 1 yellow vs. three purple (dual-wielding raises the difficulty.) That way, you haven't diluted your XP at all.

Now to the advantage of that fighting style. You could start with the lightsaber as your primary weapon. If you generate enough advantage, you could follow through with an unarmed strike and possibly also activate Knockdown or Disorient, qualities that the lightsaber doesn't have.

You could also start with Brawl and use the lightsaber only to Sunder. That way, you could be the ultimate non-lethal warrior.

Not only is your concept cool, it also gives you options.

* for starting characters

Thanks for clarifying that it's possible, I was only able to have a very quick look at the ruleset.

Looks like it would only really work mechanically if you were to keep the Brawl and Lightsaber skills balanced and concentrate on a Brawn based character build initially.

I apprecate that the rules might not really suit what I have in mind, but they certainly seem to discourage the kind of examples of mixed duelling / martials arts above. Darth Maul, as a high Brawl, high Lightsaber, high Brawn example, would seem to combine both styles highly effectively, but for most characters the disadvantages would seem to outweigh the benefits to the point where even for high level characters why would you bother?

I suppose I feel that the added difficulty is harsh given that, presumably, it would be easier/more instinctive to try and punch/elbow an opponent with your free arm rather than aim a blaster or dual-wield a shock whip, but fair enough.

After a quick-readthrough there doesn't seem to be scope for this in the combat mechanics unless the character is dual-wielding another weapon (even if it's knuckle dusters or something). I understand that it's a narrative based system, so some people might be happy to assume that when a lightsaber check is made some level of unarmed combat is implied if it fits the context.

Actually that's precisely where the narrative dice come in. Advantages and Triumphs can be spent to get the extra hit, to put the enemy off balance, to line them up for an ally, etc. Something you revealed:

As I understand it, characters can dual-wield weapons, with increased difficulty dependent upon the weapons being of the same type, but with the possibility of a second attack with the secondary weapon if the first attack is successful.

No, not another "attack", another hit. Each round of combat is about a minute, and each character's turn is as long as it needs to be to complete it. That means a single roll of the dice doesn't represent a single swing of the lightsaber, but a flurry of swings and blocks and kicks etc that lead to whatever the dice reveal. It's the same with blaster fire, even a single pistol.

When Maul knocked Obiwan off the catwalk in E1, he didn't need Brawl to do it, he just needed several Advantages or a Triumph, or maybe the "Knockdown" Talent from Hired Gun, while making his Lightsaber roll. This game isn't as specific in that regard as other games.

So really, you don't need Brawl at all unless you plan to enter a fight without a weapon or are concerned about being disarmed. Just take the Advantages and Triumphs in Lightsaber and narrate how you want the combat to appear.

, but for most characters the disadvantages would seem to outweigh the benefits to the point where even for high level characters why would you bother?

What kind of benefits are you looking for? You can already spend advantage and triumphs to gain certain effects (extra maneuver, bonus defense dice, reduce opponent's defense dice, etc.). Beyond extra damage if you hit, there is the opportunity to activate the qualities of your unarmed attack such as Disorient 1 and (as Whafrog mentioned) Knockdown. So there are benefits to the action of dual wielding lightsaber and unarmed.

I suppose I feel that the added difficulty is harsh given that, presumably, it would be easier/more instinctive to try and punch/elbow an opponent with your free arm rather than aim a blaster or dual-wield a shock whip, but fair enough.

I am not seeing it as harsh. You just need to be equally skilled to enjoy the benefits without some penalty due to lack of skill in either skill.

Not to mention it's good to raise Brawl even if you don't intend to "dual wield", in case you are disarmed.

Note that the Enhance power can significantly augment Brawl attacks. So if you chose the "two-weapon" route with Brawl & Lightsaber, you could potentially add those Force dice to your combat check, or just grab the next Enhance power upgrade and commit Force dice to augment your Brawn rating either way, Enhance is your friend and is very appropriate with its flavor.

Also, to whafrog's point earlier about combat rounds being "about a minute," before someone comes in and derails the thread with complaints about how they would rather that combat rounds be only 10 seconds or 2.5 seconds or 30 seconds, note that the rules do actually say that combat rounds can last up to approximately a minute. (My paraphrase, AFB)

The main point of this (what Whafrog and the RAW are getting at) is that this is a paradigm that might need some adjustment of thinking. You can narrate only 6 seconds if you so choose, but you're not stuck with that as the only option.

TL;DR this is an excellent topic, please don't derail

Thanks Gran, glad you like the concept. Me too!

Am I right in thinking that you don't think the lightsaber form talents that allow you to substitute in another characteristic should "penalise" such a character? The way Dono explained it it sounded to me like gaining Shien or Ataru technique use would then potentially degrade your dice pool if your alternative characteristic to Brawn was lower. That doesn't seem right to me, that an optional talent would provide you with almost automatic disadvantage.

And you've got it exactly, I'm trying to get some more information on how a (lightsaber + brawl) style could work to give the charactor flavourful options in combat (without building it in such a way that the character is hobbled by a bad dice pool). So if we generate enough advantage we've potentially got an additional unarmed strike/hit (that's at your basic Brawl damage right?), and the potential to activate the specific qualities of your unarmed attack. And the info on the Enhance power is also really useful to note. Ok, cool. I think the benefits as described are fine, I just want to make sure that I don't create a character build where it's prohibitively difficult to activate them.

And... yeah, totally don't need to be sold on the "independent" qualities of raising Brawl. The setting very much suggests to me that if your first instinct is pull out your lightsaber, no matter how powerful you are if you are not combining that with a certain level of discretion it is going to cause all sorts of problems for your character. And I think it's very fitting that a character has this incredibly powerful weapon, has trained to hone their skills, but if they want to try and follow what they know of the Jedi code then they've got to try and stop themselves using that power unless it's absolutely necessary.

Whafrog: I understand what you're saying about the narrative system. I think you described it equally eloquently in another thread I was reading. But in what you're describing, as you say, the character's ability in Brawl or Ranged (light) doesn't matter. Which if it the blocks and kicks are incidental, or the character is purely using their off-hand blaster to force their opponent to duck, that's maybe fine. I understand that these sorts of actions are happening as part of a whole series of actions within the same combat round. But what I'm trying to get at, maybe mainly for my own understanding, is how a character's strengths or weaknessess with different weapon proficiences are reflected in the ruleset. I would argue that while Maul is clearly a highly skilled lightsaber combatant, he's gaining an additional advantage because he's complementing that with some highly aggressive and acrobatic martial arts i.e. there's (potentially) more to it than just an advantage generating lightsaber check. I think there's scope for us to narratively describe what he does after an advantage generating lightsaber check as acrobatically kicking Obiwan off the catwalk, whereas we might describe what Dooku does after the same check in a different way because they clearly have very different styles. But I also think there's something to be said for a player to say that they are going to launch a series of lightsaber blows but then attempt to follow that up by sweeping the leg of their opponent, because, as above, that opens up a series of other options for how the combat unfolds, and that should, in my opinion, be at least partially dependent upon their skill in unarmed combat rather than purely with a lightsaber. And because otherwise everyone would be running around twirling, dodging and high-kicking like Maul without any basic competency (i.e levels) in Brawl!

Warning, long rambling response:

But what I'm trying to get at, maybe mainly for my own understanding, is how a character's strengths or weaknessess with different weapon proficiences are reflected in the ruleset....

.... And because otherwise everyone would be running around twirling, dodging and high-kicking like Maul without any basic competency (i.e levels) in Brawl!

Yes, that is true, two reasons. First, because there are no specific Skill synergies defined in the ruleset, nor are there Talents that allow it. (Maybe there should be ). But generally there don't really need to be because the Advantages and Triumphs handle all that. I think maybe one source of what you're driving here at is there is no real limit on how somebody can narrate their character's action, other than maybe some kind of agreement at the table to narrate within the scope of the character's XP expenditures. Somebody could narrate these slaps and kicks into their Lightsaber-wielding Brawl-less character's actions if they so choose, which means somebody who invests in Brawl to feel more "legitimate" about narrating such actions might feel ripped off.

Second, because "damage" in this game isn't always a cut or burn. Even bringing somebody above their Wound threshold doesn't mean they suffered any real surface damage. They took a beating, for sure, but a couple stimpacks will fix that. If every hit of a Lightsaber caused "damage", nobody would have limbs left. Your character really doesn't take damage until they get a critical, and even those are sometimes things like "head ringer". So it might help if you think that actually *most* of the damage caused in a Lightsaber combat is going to be exactly those slaps and kicks, and jarring punishment as the blades are furiously parried.

About the scene examples: in some ways it's a mistake to look at movie scenes and try to map them to a set of skills...sometimes the time-slices are too short, and there are numerous ways it could be narrated, such as:

- Maul made a Lightsaber attack, rolled a Triumph, knocked Obiwan over

- Obiwan made a Lightsaber attack, which was Parried and, because Maul had committed a die to Sense, upgraded, so Obiwan got a Despair, so Maul knocked him off

- Quigon really messed up, rolled a couple Despairs against Maul, and Maul got take his pick of a free action.

- Maul didn't make a Lightsaber attack that turn. Having Parried against Obiwan, he made a Brawl attack, hoping to get a Knockdown, which he did.

On that last example, I don't know how other GM's would handle it, but if somebody wanted to make a Brawl attack *instead* of a Lightsaber attack that turn, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Brawl has different qualities, and other than the damage reduction compared to Lightsaber, it's perfectly viable. You don't need to narrate them as happening in the same turn.

I do think some of what you're talking about has more to do with Talents than Skills. There aren't any Talents to improve two weapon fighting, but there are plenty that can achieve effects that can be explained by punching rather than slicing: Disorient, Stunning Blow, etc are pretty useful in their own right, easily narrated as "martial arts". To that end, there should be nothing wrong with taking another spec tree.

Ramble 2: I like your character concept, but it seems like you're trying to achieve your end goal at chargen. Patience, young Padawan Even a two-weapon shooter using blasters is going to have to wait. You really need a minimum dice pool of YYY or YYGG to just *start* hitting with dual pistol regularly (never mind scoring enough advantages to get a second hit), and that's at no more than medium range (i.e.: normally PP, so a two-weapon difficulty of PPP). It's barely worth it at that point, you'd only do it if somebody in the combat was passing you boost dice on their own Advantages.

In your case the difficulty is going to be PPPP, so I think you're going to need a minimum dice pool of YYYG to get around that, not something you can get at chargen. This dice pool means you'll probably hit a little more often than not, but with threats. It will be hard to score enough advantages to get that second hit. And even if you created a home-grown Talent for this, you'd still need YYY or YYGG.

So in the end, there's nothing wrong with investing in both Lightsaber and Brawl, but don't expect to be very good at two-weapon fighting right out of the gate, it will take time. Also, consider looking beyond the Skills at other specs and Talents, the Gadgeteer or Marauder trees from EotE should be really up your alley.

Two of my players dueled last night in a weapon test we were doing. The opening attacks, one player attacked, missing, and generating 3 threats. The opponent narrated that he parried the attack, spun to the inside of his opponent's weapon and elbowed him in the face, for 3 strain (spending the 3 threats). Entirely narrative with the die results.

Thanks Gran, glad you like the concept. Me too!

Am I right in thinking that you don't think the lightsaber form talents that allow you to substitute in another characteristic should "penalise" such a character? The way Dono explained it it sounded to me like gaining Shien or Ataru technique use would then potentially degrade your dice pool if your alternative characteristic to Brawn was lower. That doesn't seem right to me, that an optional talent would provide you with almost automatic disadvantage.

These talents are optional, you don't have to trade your Brawn for the characteristic. You can, of course.

That gives me an idea for a different concept: Dual-wielding a blaster and Ataru technique for shooting and meleeing with Dexterity.

The series of lightsabers blows followed by a kick can be just a brawl check narrated as a series of lightsaber blows followed by a kick. With the kick as the only die roll made. Likely because the result the player is looking for is a knockdown so as to break up a team.

Thanks Gran, glad you like the concept. Me too!

Am I right in thinking that you don't think the lightsaber form talents that allow you to substitute in another characteristic should "penalise" such a character? The way Dono explained it it sounded to me like gaining Shien or Ataru technique use would then potentially degrade your dice pool if your alternative characteristic to Brawn was lower. That doesn't seem right to me, that an optional talent would provide you with almost automatic disadvantage.

These talents are optional, you don't have to trade your Brawn for the characteristic. You can, of course.

That gives me an idea for a different concept: Dual-wielding a blaster and Ataru technique for shooting and meleeing with Dexterity.

Only when a talent calls out an alternate characteristic do you have to use it. And you must have the talent that allows you to use the alternate attribute to do so in the first place. So for most talents in a lightsaber tree, if it just calls for a Lightsaber check and not a Lightsaber (Characteristic) check, you would be fine with just Brawn if that is what you want.

Hey Whafrog, I don't mind long rambling responses, they're interesting (usually).

Second point: Ah don't worry, not really expecting to be any sort of multi discipline master straight away. It's more about deciding what to invest in initially. Will it be worth it to invest in Brawl, Melee and Lightsaber, or just Lightsaber? At what point does it become viable mechanically to start activating the advantages of dual-wielding? Will Brawl or Melee become superfluous eventually as lightsaber combat becomes more prominent as the campaign goes on, is the window for synergistic usage too short? Not questions I was necessarily expecting definitive answers to but hearing people's responses has helped clarify what I was thinking about doing.

I could focus on lightsaber initially and buy up Brawl later when I would have enough a dice pool to use both effectively, but from a character viewpoint that doesn't feel right. With a basic 100XP build I'm struggling as it is to put even one dot in the skills I'd like to develop later, one or two Soresu talents, maybe one weak force power, so I'm very aware that what I will be building will be a a) non-optimal b) essentially quite weak. So I definitely don't feel I'm trying to get an end result right at character generation; what I am struggling with is deciding on what skills are absolutely essential as both representing the character's backstory and as building blocks for what they will eventually become. Just a sidebar, but I think I'm essentially used to systems which give you a broader range of initial abilites/XP/starting points to play with. In other games I've been able to assign much more easily the characteristics which are appropriate to what I would think of as quite a modest character's background. Not a criticism, but trying to build even a sub-padawan force user that isn't super specialised/limited in terms of their skills is pretty tough.

At what point does it become viable mechanically to start activating the advantages of dual-wielding?

Dual wielding, same skill: YYY or YYGG

Dual wielding, different skills: YYYG or YYGGG

With a basic 100XP build I'm struggling as it is to put even one dot in the skills I'd like to develop later, one or two Soresu talents, maybe one weak force power, so I'm very aware that what I will be building will be a a) non-optimal b) essentially quite weak.

Actually, it's strongly advised to put as much of your starting XP as possible into characteristics. There are debates about this and there's certainly nothing wrong with having low stats that reflect a good story, but I think on the whole, for most people, it leads to richer and more effective characters. Yes, this means at first you will only have a smattering of skills, but your GM should expect this and scale accordingly. I don't know how much XP your GM will be awarding per session, but you'll probably find that initial advancement can quickly make you pretty robust. If you compared to, say, Saga, I think a basic starting character in this system is more potent than a level 1 character.

As for the rest, I'd encourage reserving judgement on the mechanics and synergies and all that until you have a character with several sessions under your belt and maybe 100+ XP. That should give you a good sense of how the game plays.