Hey all,

Got three large monster movement questions for any rule gurus out there.

===

Question #1: Is the following activation legal?

Lets say D represents a Crypt Dragon and A, B, and C represents heroes. 0 represent an empty square. Crypt Dragons have movement of 3.

A00000000

000000000

000000000

000DDD000

000DDDB00

000000000

000000000

000000C00

The Overlord plays Dash and Frenzy on the Crypt Dragon.

The Crypt Dragon then performs a move action to add movement to his movement pool. This causes him to shrink to down to 1 space to begin moving from. He chooses the bold square.

Then, without actually leaving his current square, he immediately interrupts his move action with an attack on B. The dragon expands like so before performing the attack:

A00000000

000000000

000000000

000000000

0000DDB00

0000DD000

0000DD000

000000C00

After performing his attack on B, the dragon performs the Cause Fear action on C. Finally, he begins using his 3 movement points. This time, he chooses the top left square to move from, in order to approach A. After his three movement, he is positioned like so:

A00000000

0DDD00000

0DDD00000

000000000

000000B00

000000000

000000000

000000C00

Since an attack on A is legal from the single space he occupies before expanding, the incredibly dextrous dragon performs an attack A.

===

Question #2. Is the following activation legal?:

A shadow dragon is hungry and wants to get to a hero in a single activation. However, the hero is 16 squares away. Can the dragon get to his food and eat it in one turn as follows?

D is once again the dragon, and F is his delicious food, a hero figure.

DDD000000000000000F

DDD0000000000000000

The Overlord kindly plays Dash and Frenzy on the famished dragon. First, the dragon spends one move action to get 3 movement points. He then spends those movement points using the bold square as his starting square. His movement done, the dragon expands. His new position is like so:

00000DDD0000000000F

00000DDD00000000000

Next the dragon performs another Move Action to add 3 more movement points and spends them in the same fashion.This time, he picks the following bolded square to start his movement from:

00000DDD0000000000F

00000DDD00000000000

And ends up like so:

0000000000DDD00000F

0000000000DDD000000

The dragon spends his last action to move a 3rd time, adding 3 more movement points to his pool and spending them from the bolded square:

0000000000DDD00000F

0000000000DDD000000

Ending up like so, adjacent to the hero:

000000000000000DDDF

000000000000000DDD0

The dragon now begins his hard earned meal by attacking the adjacent figure F.

===

Question #3: The 1st question involved interrupting move actions with non-move actions. However, if a large monster interrupts a move action with another move action, can they still expand?

Is there a clear ruling on this? I'm assuming this will allow a large figure to move one space, interrupt their move action with another action to expand in some arbitrary direction, then pick a new space to resume their movement.

===

I've studied the rulings thus far and what I've read points to all of the above things being true. However, I want to double check this before the heroes cry foul when the dragon moves 16 squares in one turn and/or twists around the field like a ballet dancer.

Yes you are correct: the 3 movement speed on the shadow dragon is deceptive, in reality it is more like 5 because of expansion rules.

Then again, you are playing Dash and Frenzy cards simultaneously to achieve these effects.

Question 1: I would argue that without spending a movement point you did not perform a movement of your figure and are therefore not allowed to change the initial positioning of your dragon. So in my opinion the first chain of actions would not be legal.

Question 2: It is indeed a legal chaining of cards and actions.

Question 3: You can do this exactly once using the 2 actions of a large monster. You need to perform an action to interrupt your movement. So yes, you can interrupt your movement to commence another move action and are therefore allowed to expand your large monster to gain additional spaces. It is not allowed to move a step, expand, move another step, expand etc. without performing an action after expanding.

Hope thats not too confusing.

Interrupting a move action with a move action would allow expanding 3 times, correct? We haven't been playing that way. We haven't been interrupting move actions with move actions.

Question 1: I would argue that without spending a movement point you did not perform a movement of your figure and are therefore not allowed to change the initial positioning of your dragon. So in my opinion the first chain of actions would not be legal.

Unfortunately, the rules do not specify that the figure must actually leave their current square and enter a new square in order to allow for expansion.

Since according to the glossary of terms in the other thread a move action is simply the act of adding movement points to your pool, then allowing for an expansion without actually going anywhere is legal, odd as it may be.

A house rule banning such trickery would always be an option though..

Interrupting a move action with a move action would allow expanding 3 times, correct? We haven't been playing that way. We haven't been interrupting move actions with move actions.

I don't see why he could expand 3 times. He takes his first movement action, interrupts this action to take another movementaction. This adds more movementpoints, but he can't expand until he spends all the movementpoints he wants.

Interrupting a move action with a move action would allow expanding 3 times, correct? We haven't been playing that way. We haven't been interrupting move actions with move actions.

Question 1: I would argue that without spending a movement point you did not perform a movement of your figure and are therefore not allowed to change the initial positioning of your dragon. So in my opinion the first chain of actions would not be legal.

Unfortunately, the rules do not specify that the figure must actually leave their current square and enter a new square in order to allow for expansion.

Since according to the glossary of terms in the other thread a move action is simply the act of adding movement points to your pool, then allowing for an expansion without actually going anywhere is legal, odd as it may be.

A house rule banning such trickery would always be an option though..

For comparison's sake, the English rules read as follows:

"When determining movement for large monsters, the overlord player chooses one of the spaces that the monster occupies and counts movement from the chosen space as if the figure occupied one space. When the monster ends (or interrupts) its movement, the overlord player places the large monster figure so that one of the spaces its base occupies includes the space where the monster ended its movement.

This wording supports allowing the monster to declare a move, stay where it is, and expand in a new direction. It never states the monster has to move. It simply needs to "determine movement".

Lost in translation perhaps? I'm starting to think we should e-mail FFG about this one...

RAW, all of those situations are legal. RAW, you can interrupt a move action with another move action, and declaring the action would allow (and force) the large monster to expand.

In all of the groups I have played with, we have agreed on a house rule:

After a large monster resumes a move action (after interruption,) it must shrink back to the same single space it expanded from.

This solves the issue in #1- the dragon could attack B, but then would need to shrink back down to that space adjacent to B, which would mean he couldn't immediately declare an attack against a different square. (Essentially, he's ONLY expanded for the purposes of the attack, and then immediately shrinks back down to his 1x1 square to continue moving.)

This doesn't change 2 at all, because at the completion of a move action, the dragon is free to pick a new square to shrink to.

It would also change 3- when he interrupts, he needs to use the same square, but again, at the completion of the "middle" move action, he can pick a new space.

We have found it to be a very reasonable house rule.

As I understand the interruption of movement for the purpose of performing an attack, you may only attack from the space you expanded from, this prevents large monsters from gaining reach by expanding while interrupting a movement.

As I understand the interruption of movement for the purpose of performing an attack, you may only attack from the space you expanded from, this prevents large monsters from gaining reach by expanding while interrupting a movement.

Yes, that is correct and is in the errata. If the monster interrupts an existing move action to do something else, that something else must be legal to perform from his current 'shrunk' location, prior to expanding.

However, its important to note that this does not prevent a monster from completing his move action, expanding, and then using any space on his base to perform an action from.

Also, this leads me to another question, assuming we are using Zaltyre's house rule.

Imagine the following scenario:

A00DDD0B00

000DDD0000

The dragon, D, has Dash and Frenzy applied to it. A and B are heroes.

Step 1: Dragon declares a move action from the bold square and moves two spaces towards A.

Step 2: Dragon ends his move action early, even though he had 1 movement point left. Movement pool goes to 0.

Step 3: Dragon attacks A. Note this attacks is not an interruption, since the move action ended.

Step 4: Dragon declares a second move action, and moves towards B. This time he uses the italicized square on his base. Since this is a brand new move action, he should be allowed to pick this different square.

Step 5: Dragon ends his move action adjacent to B and expands.

Step 6: Dragon attacks B.

In order for the above steps to be legal, the dragon must be allowed to choose when his move action ends.

Thus the question: Can a figure during his activation choose to end a move action that is in progress and drain out their MP without ending their activation?

Totally. A figure can prematurely end its move action, but it forfeits any remaining movement points. Note that even if the dragon couldn't do this, it could just expand differently, using all its MP to accomplish the same result.

Ending a move action is the same as emptying your current movement pool. In your scenario the stored movement point doesn't matter as the dragon would still reach B.

A o o D D D o o o o B

o o o D D D o o o o o

In this scenario the dragon could not reach B, as he would lose a movement point by finishing its first move action.

*Zaltyre was faster, typing on a touchscreen is so slow ;-)*

Ending a move action is the same as emptying your current movement pool. In your scenario the stored movement point doesn't matter as the dragon would still reach B.

A o o D D D o o o o B

o o o D D D o o o o o

In this scenario the dragon could not reach B, as he would lose a movement point by finishing its first move action.

*Zaltyre was faster, typing on a touchscreen is so slow ;-)*

Haha. If he stopped short he couldn't, but if he used all of his MP, he could reach them both:

1) Dragon declares a move action, shrinking to the bold space:

That's true, but we talked about premature stopping of movement ;-)

Ending a move action is the same as emptying your current movement pool. In your scenario the stored movement point doesn't matter as the dragon would still reach B.

A o o D D D o o o o B

o o o D D D o o o o o

In this scenario the dragon could not reach B, as he would lose a movement point by finishing its first move action.

*Zaltyre was faster, typing on a touchscreen is so slow ;-)*

Haha. If he stopped short he couldn't, but if he used all of his MP, he could reach them both:

1) Dragon declares a move action, shrinking to the bold space:

A o o D D D o o o o B

o o o D D D o o o o o

2) Dragon spends 2 MP to move to the bold space:

A D o o o o o o o o B

o o o o o o o o o o o

3) Dragon interrupts move action to attack space A, then spends his last MP (from the same bold space) to move 1 space toward B and expand at the end of his move action:

A o D D D o o o o o B

o o D D D o o o o o o

4) Dragon declares a second move action shrinking to the bold space:

A o D D D o o o o o B

o o D D D o o o o o o

5) Dragon moves 3 spaces, then ends the second move action and expands from the bold space:

A o o o o o o D D D B

o o o o o o o D D D o

6) Dragon attacks B with a Frenzy.

Wait a minute. You would need atleast another dash to do that

1.) first normal action: Movement

3.) second normal action: attack; spending remaining MP

4.) third normal action?: movement???

6.) frenzy

Wait a minute. You would need atleast another dash to do that

1.) first normal action: Movement

3.) second normal action: attack; spending remaining MP

4.) third normal action?: movement???

6.) frenzy

With Dash and Frenzy, the monster can now perform 2 normal actions, a move action, and an attack action. What Zaltyre describes falls within those limits.

Wait a minute. You would need atleast another dash to do that

1.) first normal action: Movement

3.) second normal action: attack; spending remaining MP

4.) third normal action?: movement???

6.) frenzy

With Dash and Frenzy, the monster can now perform 2 normal actions, a move action, and an attack action. What Zaltyre describes falls within those limits.

Yeah- sorry, DAMaz, I was referencing an earlier post where Charmy was asking about a dragon that had Dash and Frenzy played on it.

For the record, I see no reason to houserule the movement and expansion tricks on large monster, given that large monsters are generally weaker than smaller monsters as a group choice. Consider a group of 4 heroes: you can have 5 goblin archers shooting someone for 5 blue and 5 yellow dice, or you can have 2 ettins hitting them for 2 blue and 2 red. Even with superior surges, the goblins do hella more damage. Other groups provide even better boosts.

Barghests are easily one of the best monsters in the games in terms of damage, movement, size, numbers, and durability. I <3 Barghests, howl so good.

For the record, I see no reason to houserule the movement and expansion tricks on large monster, given that large monsters are generally weaker than smaller monsters as a group choice. Consider a group of 4 heroes: you can have 5 goblin archers shooting someone for 5 blue and 5 yellow dice, or you can have 2 ettins hitting them for 2 blue and 2 red. Even with superior surges, the goblins do hella more damage. Other groups provide even better boosts.

Barghests are easily one of the best monsters in the games in terms of damage, movement, size, numbers, and durability. I <3 Barghests, howl so good.

Completely true- the houserule I'm talking about was implemented as a concession when the heroes really, really began to hate how shifty large monsters were. I'm confident that over time (read: as more of them play as the OL) they'll come to see that large monster RAW aren't bad. For now, though, it's not a bad rule- it doesn't severely cripple their movement.

For the record, I see no reason to houserule the movement and expansion tricks on large monster, given that large monsters are generally weaker than smaller monsters as a group choice. Consider a group of 4 heroes: you can have 5 goblin archers shooting someone for 5 blue and 5 yellow dice, or you can have 2 ettins hitting them for 2 blue and 2 red. Even with superior surges, the goblins do hella more damage.

That's wrong, or let's say you don't tell the whole story.

5 goblin archers can shoot under ideal instances with 5 blue and 5 yellow dice, but they also roll against 5 defense dice. Moreover if they miss (and miss chance rises with number of dice rolled) they will roll less yellow dice.

2 Ettins roll with 2 blue and 2 red dice, but they also roll only against 2 defense dice. Additionally every attack against them will roll against 2 defense dice, meaning they will lose less HP each attack compared to goblin archers.

needless to say you can reinforce your whole ettin group in 2 turns wheras you need 5 with the goblin archers

Actually it depends on reinforcement rules: a lot of the later quests in LoR or SoN allow you to reinforce a certain number of hit points of monsters a turn or have a similar mechanic, meaning you can get one ettin or 3 goblin archers back. And yeah you roll against more defense dice, but it's still more damage.

The chance to get a miss increases for more dice rolled, but it stays the same per die. More attacks is still more damage. 5 attacks at slightly lower damage totals is still better than 2 attacks at slightly higher. The damage output of an ettin isn't that much higher than that of a goblin archer: on average it's a few points. Other small monster groups do even better than goblin archers in this scenario. Volucrux Reavers do absurd amounts of damage very fast and you get 4 of them (the master can attack twice in a turn so you still get 5 attacks), and skirmish is an incredible ability.

Big monsters are better for blocking off areas and controlling space, also with the reinforcement rules that say "one monster per turn", but in general smaller monster groups are more powerful and better at punishing. No monster group in the game does the amount of damage that harpies can.

Actually it depends on reinforcement rules: a lot of the later quests in LoR or SoN allow you to reinforce a certain number of hit points of monsters a turn or have a similar mechanic, meaning you can get one ettin or 3 goblin archers back. And yeah you roll against more defense dice, but it's still more damage.

The chance to get a miss increases for more dice rolled, but it stays the same per die. More attacks is still more damage. 5 attacks at slightly lower damage totals is still better than 2 attacks at slightly higher. The damage output of an ettin isn't that much higher than that of a goblin archer: on average it's a few points. Other small monster groups do even better than goblin archers in this scenario. Volucrux Reavers do absurd amounts of damage very fast and you get 4 of them (the master can attack twice in a turn so you still get 5 attacks), and skirmish is an incredible ability.

Big monsters are better for blocking off areas and controlling space, also with the reinforcement rules that say "one monster per turn", but in general smaller monster groups are more powerful and better at punishing. No monster group in the game does the amount of damage that harpies can.

Yeah... but I would argue that Reavers aren't your typical small monstergroup, but one of the best, so they hardly fit as a good example. Also keep in mind that one defense die is the minimum heroes will roll, it goes only up from there. Then again there is Leoric, who makes small monsters much more weaker than big ones, which means in my games small monster groups often had much less damage output than big ones (doing nearly no damage at all for every attack in one round). So I would say small and big monsters are generally at least on par regarding their damage output.

Conditionally correct, if the heroes have counter abilities to large groups of weaker monsters than larger monsters are as good or better.

However, smaller monsters tend to be faster and more agile, as well as come in really big groups, which makes them, on the whole, better than large monsters. Large monsters absolutely have their place, but it's hard for me to want to bring merriods if I can bring harpies instead, etc.

In general, counter abilities chosen disregarded, smaller monsters come in larger numbers and do more damage overall. Larger monsters are tougher and last longer. Each quest will reward different choices.