As a fan of Form V, I have several problems with this talent in terms of both flavor and balance.

On the balance end, this is incredibly costly imo. At 20 xp, requiring a destiny point, and requiring you to have taken strain prior to reflect I find that it's underwhelming to be able to move towards/engage a foe. I can see how this might be useful in theory, but at that tier of xp cost you can just take 2 strain next round to move a range, it seems excessive. Has anyone found this talent worth taking? I mean, this also doesn't seem to get past the 2 maneuvers limit rule even as an out of turn incidental unless I am missing something.

Flavor-wise I also have a problem with this talent also. Djem So, the Melee oriented variant of Shien, is associated with typically powerful blows, parrying/counter-strikes, and a distinct lack of mobility. The Falling Avalanche Talent captures the powerful blows aspect well, Counter Strike captures the aspect of parrying even if it's not directly related to Djem So. The lack of mobility tho? This sorta flies in the face of it, and directly clashes with the flavor of the Form(or this aspect of it anyways).

Also I don't remember reflection to be a part of Djem So, why isn't it tied to Parry instead of Reflect? I imagine it would be much more limited, but would more accurately encapsulate the form's flavor and maybe you could cut down on the Destiny point cost or something.

Am I being overly critical of this or what?

As a fan of Form V, I have several problems with this talent in terms of both flavor and balance.

On the balance end, this is incredibly costly imo. At 20 xp, requiring a destiny point, and requiring you to have taken strain prior to reflect I find that it's underwhelming to be able to move towards/engage a foe. I can see how this might be useful in theory, but at that tier of xp cost you can just take 2 strain next round to move a range, it seems excessive. Has anyone found this talent worth taking? I mean, this also doesn't seem to get past the 2 maneuvers limit rule even as an out of turn incidental unless I am missing something.

I don't understand what you mean by the bit I bolded.

It does bypass the 2 maneuvers rule, because that limit is for your turn, not for the whole round. Which makes free out-of-turn maneuvers very good. So allowing you to engage (or just move closer if engaging isn't possible) will at least save you strain, and sometimes could be the difference between attacking and just standing back at short range for a round.

There's also aiming and defensive stance that you can use instead of moving.

I don't understand what you mean by the bit I bolded.

It does bypass the 2 maneuvers rule, because that limit is for your turn, not for the whole round. Which makes free out-of-turn maneuvers very good. So allowing you to engage (or just move closer if engaging isn't possible) will at least save you strain, and sometimes could be the difference between attacking and just standing back at short range for a round.

There's also aiming and defensive stance that you can use instead of moving.

And well I can see the value then in breaking action economy, thought the limit applied off turn as well.

I still don't like it at the cost of a Destiny Point, and as noted still have an issue of the flavor.

I haven't had the chance to test it yet, but on paper it sounded incredibly useful to me. Engaging the guy who just shot you as an out of turn incidental makes it more difficult for his friends to shoot you. You could also use it to disengage the melee combatant so he has to keep chasing you.

I also have to admit that this "lack of mobility" is news to me and sounds like it describes Darth Vaders fighting style specifically (who cannot move as well as he used to.)

That being said, spending a Destiny point is risky. Draw Closer and Hawk Bat Swoop do similar things without it. Of these two, only Hawk Bat Swoop could be used to disengage. On the other hand, Pre-Emptive Avoidance (which only disengages) also requires that investment.

Overall, I'd say it's not too weak in comparison (Hawk Bat Swoop is kind of crazy though.)

My guess is that the free movement part of Djem So Deflection is meant to bypass the "two maneuvers" limit that characters operate under. In fact, checking the Combat chapter in each of the three rulebooks under Maneuvers (pg144 in FaD Beta) cites that a character is limited to two maneuvers on their turn . So Djem So Deflection effectively provides a free maneuver when used.

And it is pretty handy if your intended target is at Short/Medium Range, as using this talent puts you into Engaged/Short Range aka Within Swatting Distance of Your Everglowin' Beatstick, particularly if you're going to act before they get another chance to do so.

If they were at Short Range, you're right up in their face, and odds are the target isn't going to be able to take a maneuver to disengage from you, meaning that you can easily spend your own maneuver on your next action to Aim or activate a defensive talent such as Defensive Stance or Side Step without having to suffer extra strain.

And should they either spend a maneuver to disengage or otherwise be at Short Range when your turn comes up, easy enough to spend a maneuver to close in and smack them.

As for Vader post-cyborg conversion, in the films at least we really don't see him participating in any type of fight other than a lightsaber duel, so Djem So Deflection isn't really going to be applicable, and for the most part he doesn't need to spring around the battle field since the fights he's in during the OT all take place in fairly confined spaces where that kind of mobility generally isn't an option, at least not if you want to attack which is the driving tenet of Form V.

I guess that what I don't like about it is it's role in melee combat. Djem So was supposed to be about winning melee duels through controlling the battle, this just feels like a like you're playing catch up.

In a saber duel, it wouldn't even have a role. Well unless the guy is holding a blaster and trying to shoot you before hand I guess, but I can't think of another way to cause this to go into effect and remain useful in a duel because it needs a reflection, you have to move towards the shooter, and again the high cost of the Destiny Point. This reads to me as a Talent that will be more often good in theory and less in practice.

As for the limited maneuverability of Vader in the OT, even Anakin's display of Djem So in Episode 3 shows(Dooku V Anakin for example) that he's hardly moving on the battleground. His attacks might be a blur of motion, but compared to the acrobatics of Ataru or flourishes of Makashi it's practically motionless. The combatant holds his ground for the most part or pushes a foe into a corner.

I again find myself not pleased with the flavor of this as a Diem So ability. I think it fits very well as a Shien Talent, but representative of Djem So it is not. Which I guess is a problem with there ultimately being 2 Form V's.

Edit: I honestly feel that the Soresu spec does a better job capturing Djem So, what with all the parry talents. I am not sure if that's intentional, since Djem So was supposed to have been developed by Soresu users who felt Form III was too passive, but in any case it seems silly that Djem So doesn't do what it's described as doing.

Gonna build a PC out with this talent and run them through some scenarios to see if it helps any later today.

I'm not so knowledgeable about "Fightsaber" as you seem to be, I drew all my knowledge about the form from the internet / that one d20 supplement.

That being said, I think you're focusing on the negative (sorry for that pun.) That one talent is not expected to describe the entirety of Djem So. In my layman's opinion the rest of the left half of the talent tree is also meant to portray Djem So, particularly Counterstrike and Falling Avalanche (both of which you say you like.) The talent you're focusing on is not called Djem So Technique, it's called Djem So Deflection. It describes a particular subset of a greater whole. It does help you to control the flow of the battlefield - if your opponents shoot at you.

I think the tree is fine as is, it has crunch, variety and uniqueness. So much that people thought it was practically mandatory to take the spec for every Jedi character.

I'm not so knowledgeable about "Fightsaber" as you seem to be, I drew all my knowledge about the form from the internet / that one d20 supplement.

That being said, I think you're focusing on the negative (sorry for that pun.) That one talent is not expected to describe the entirety of Djem So. In my layman's opinion the rest of the left half of the talent tree is also meant to portray Djem So, particularly Counterstrike and Falling Avalanche (both of which you say you like.) The talent you're focusing on is not called Djem So Technique, it's called Djem So Deflection. It describes a particular subset of a greater whole. It does help you to control the flow of the battlefield - if your opponents shoot at you.

I think the tree is fine as is, it has crunch, variety and uniqueness. So much that people thought it was practically mandatory to take the spec for every Jedi character.

Though I don't really like the decision, I get it, the message of the design being that you really need both halves to be a form V master. And I can respect that.

If anything, flavor-wise the talent should be Shien Deflection - since Shien focuses on blaster bolt deflection, canonically - even though it doesn't have the alliteration.

Let's not sacrifice accuracy for a pretty name. Be more creative.

If anything, flavor-wise the talent should be Shien Deflection - since Shien focuses on blaster bolt deflection, canonically - even though it doesn't have the alliteration.

Let's not sacrifice accuracy for a pretty name. Be more creative.

I doubt alliteration was their end goal. Djem-So Deflection is an already-established concept in the SWRPG lore.

Flavor-wise, the talent is fine. It keeps with the Djem-So/Shien philosophy of turning an opponent's attacks back on them; here, it gives the saber-wielder the advantage of closing in with his ranged opponent, where he can use his lightsaber with better effectiveness.