My evidence is the complete lack of any other widely popular games which only use half their content 95%of the time without having recreated or rebranded themselves with a new version. Perhaps you can think of one or two Vorpal but I can't. At the very least they are extremely rare. As evidenced by X Wing the proportion of game elements which need to be relevant is directly related to the popularity of the game or of it subject premise. This is not warranted it is mandated by consumers who don't enjoy paying for things they only use half of and have much less patience for it if they don't have a Ionic brand (Star Wars) behind it.

Although they are no longer with us I would simply point to the WotC mini games as GREAT examples where over 50% of the content wasn't used 95% of the time. I guess if you want to say "content" was anything in a booster box then the number probably changes but if that is the measure than if you buy a Defender for the Predator upgrade you're still using the 'content' of that package.

DDM has a some minor corrections about three sets in but when it actually made real changes the game pretty much died to me and I'm sure to many others. There may have been updates to old minis in DDM 2.0 but the damage was done.

You refute my point by making it for me? They are no longer with us being the key phrase. I'm not suggesting X Wing is doomed or that the unused content is beyond redemption just that it's a millstone and a challenge FFG. Its not what they want and it's not what the players want. I do see improvement over time with this issue but it does concern me.

I'd say that 80-90% of Magic:The Gathering cards aren't used 90% of the time and that games is more popular than ever, competitive, and 20 years old.

Please try not to be daft. For one MTG is essentially on version, what, 10.0 or 11.0. They release new sets and ban older cards from competitive play. When those versions were in play and legal those percentages you gave were reversed. Only the intentional cycling from away from older versions has made the older versions unused. Maybe you'd like it if X Wing released all new ships in new colors and maybe a few new pilot abilities then told you the old ones could no longer be used? In spite of the churn in versions of MTG many of the older versions of the cards are still used in casual play. it's a false comparison.

Just because you apparently know nothing but the smallest amount about MTG doesn't mean it's a false comparison.

Out of each set of 150-250 cards, the number that see consistent, competitive play is about 10%. If a set has 25% playability in a competitive setting, it's a very good set. This is an example of precisely the situation you described, a very low percentage of cards per set see real usage, but they are still popular and still very much in business.

While it's true the analogy isn't perfect due to the fact that xwing doesn't have rotation or older formats, you simply asked for a successful game where 90% of the game isn't played 90% of the time. I provided this, but that's apparently not what you wanted?

SWLCG

Netrunner

Any game made by Wizkids

All card games which have new versions printed on a regular basis. When those versions are in play the majority of the cards get used. Take any series in MTG, Netrunner of other wise and even with a designed different in the quality of cards (common, uncommon, rare, etc) most cards still get used. Card games and table top miniature games are two completely different animals.

My evidence is the complete lack of any other widely popular games which only use half their content 95%of the time without having recreated or rebranded themselves with a new version. Perhaps you can think of one or two Vorpal but I can't. At the very least they are extremely rare. As evidenced by X Wing the proportion of game elements which need to be relevant is directly related to the popularity of the game or of it subject premise. This is not warranted it is mandated by consumers who don't enjoy paying for things they only use half of and have much less patience for it if they don't have a Ionic brand (Star Wars) behind it.

Although they are no longer with us I would simply point to the WotC mini games as GREAT examples where over 50% of the content wasn't used 95% of the time. I guess if you want to say "content" was anything in a booster box then the number probably changes but if that is the measure than if you buy a Defender for the Predator upgrade you're still using the 'content' of that package.

DDM has a some minor corrections about three sets in but when it actually made real changes the game pretty much died to me and I'm sure to many others. There may have been updates to old minis in DDM 2.0 but the damage was done.

You refute my point by making it for me? They are no longer with us being the key phrase. I'm not suggesting X Wing is doomed or that the unused content is beyond redemption just that it's a millstone and a challenge FFG. Its not what they want and it's not what the players want. I do see improvement over time with this issue but it does concern me.

I'd say that 80-90% of Magic:The Gathering cards aren't used 90% of the time and that games is more popular than ever, competitive, and 20 years old.

Please try not to be daft. For one MTG is essentially on version, what, 10.0 or 11.0. They release new sets and ban older cards from competitive play. When those versions were in play and legal those percentages you gave were reversed. Only the intentional cycling from away from older versions has made the older versions unused. Maybe you'd like it if X Wing released all new ships in new colors and maybe a few new pilot abilities then told you the old ones could no longer be used? In spite of the churn in versions of MTG many of the older versions of the cards are still used in casual play. it's a false comparison.

Just because you apparently know nothing but the smallest amount about MTG doesn't mean it's a false comparison.

Out of each set of 150-250 cards, the number that see consistent, competitive play is about 10%. If a set has 25% playability in a competitive setting, it's a very good set. This is an example of precisely the situation you described, a very low percentage of cards per set see real usage, but they are still popular and still very much in business.

While it's true the analogy isn't perfect due to the fact that xwing doesn't have rotation or older formats, you simply asked for a successful game where 90% of the game isn't played 90% of the time. I provided this, but that's apparently not what you wanted?

First, I never said anything about competitive play. That's what you tried to make it to prove your point. I'm not speaking about X Wing competitive play. I'm speaking about the full range from the most casual to the world champ. And what I said was 50% of the cards not 90%, 95% of the time. I play MTG and have thousands unless you're buying a full set at once you build and use most of the cards as you go until you have all the best cards. Then they get phased out and your on to the next series. If you take one MTG (or Netrunner or any other card game) series and compare it to the single version of X Wing your argument totally falls apart.

SWLCG

Netrunner

Any game made by Wizkids

All card games which have new versions printed on a regular basis. When those versions are in play the majority of the cards get used. Take any series in MTG, Netrunner of other wise and even with a designed different in the quality of cards (common, uncommon, rare, etc) most cards still get used. Card games and table top miniature games are two completely different animals.

Your changing of the goalposts is amusing.

I am not entirely sure what your point is about versions. But currently, SWLCG and Netrunner have not reached their rotation point. And the Living Card Game format does not have C/U/R/SR. That is the big draw to the format.

It is actually rediculously easy to tell the in SWLCG, with the pod format. In their first cycle of 6 packs, out of 32 pods, I would say 10 or less would be used in a competitive deck. We are lucky to get 3/5 good pods in a pack.

Now, there is a lot of tier 2 stuff. Which is where a lot of the "worthless" stuff in X-wing falls into. Niche stuff, that isn't necessarily alway useful. And I am fine with that. The true balance in a game is in the tier 2 area. If the tier 2 stuff has a chance of winning, if not always regularly, the game has a a good balance.

Netrunner also has a lot of niche stuff, with some really popular options. The skill requirement of Netrunner offsets "bad cards" often times. But there are still obviously better choices for icebreakers than others.

Also, Attack Wing, which is nearly the same as this game, is in much, much worse shape in terms of playable stuff.

But, go ahead and dismiss my points because previous card games utilizing the Star Wars license exists. I mean, the LCG is only the 5 Star Wars card game that has been made (Decipher made the first 3). Just ignore that it is a completely new game from any other Star Wars card game before it, which is nothing at all like Magic changing to a "new" edition. And I fail to see how FFG deciding to revive a game, with some fairly large tweaks, nearly two decades after the initial game was killed, affects it's relevance. The current Netrunner has the issues that you claim is in X-wing.

First, I never said anything about competitive play.

Here's what you said...

My evidence is the complete lack of any other widely popular games which only use half their content 95%of the time without having recreated or rebranded themselves with a new version.

To which we've provided a number of examples of exactly that happening. But you've simply dismissed them or tried to move the goalposts and/or change the rules of the debate.

Suddenly card games don't count, neither does competitive events, as if the balance for casual events is a huge issue that needs to be addressed.

Can someone who either thinks XWing 2.0 is coming and/or wants X Wing 2.0 to tell me what problems they have with the game that would warrant a second edition?

Is Defenders and generic e wings costing 5~ points too many REALLY that big of a problem? Would errataing the X Wing to have an extra hull really be a problem? Would enforcing partial point MoV or not giving turrets the ability to fire at range 3 outside of their arcs really be a problem? And while the damage deck could have one or two cards that could be tweaked a little, it's a non-issue.

What I'm trying to get across is that fixing these problems would be easier than making X Wing 2.0. If your definition of X Wing 2.0 is just a reprinted rule book that comes with new core sets and some errataed cards, that's not X Wing 2.0.

Ok, let me start by saying - I really, really love this game... as it stands mind you, not as it could be or was. I play it. I love it.

From my point of view I would be interested in seeing a 2.0 - but not because I'm apoplectic with nerd rage over the perception that any one ship/costing/mechanic has "broken" the game.

As the game has matured, some inconsistencies and "issues" have become apparent and have largely been addressed, mostly through the outstanding work of Alex Davey and Frank Brooks. Without the need for egregious errata, rather through tweeks provided through upgrades, titles and modifications.

All of which you suggest above could be addressed in a similar way.

However...

I for one would be absolutely excited to see a ground-up reworking of X-Wing (2.0 if you will), especially if it was the work of Alex and Frank given their deep commitment and understanding of the game.

Is it necessary? No I enjoy the game immensely now, as do many, many people...

Is it likely? Who knows? Wanting or Not Wanting it to happen won't affect whether they do it or not.

This is in response to those that have posited that I already have some dire designs for ships to become useless. My apologies if I gave that impression.

I think that I made the points in my original post that:

#1. I really didn't see the immediate need for retirement in this game, I just happen to think that for long term sales and playability there needs to be some sort of limit on the number of playable figures and/or cards.

#2. I would prefer that all of the pieces be both potent and legal forever, but I do not believe that such a hope is realistic.

#3. The addition of the cards adds a level of flexibility for retirement options and/or new additions that could be used to stave off any impending power creep for a long, long time.

That being said, I think that there are several pieces and cards that are currently underused, but that could be easily fixed by a future gear card or pilot ability that brings a given miniature back into active play. I really don't see a reason for miniatures to be retired in this system, but maybe a card or two could fade away without much fuss.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

Missedtrashday

My other favorite game, Warmachine, released an updated version 1.5 of the game a few years back via card packs for every faction. The decks included updated text from the FAQ's, alternate artwork, some new errata, and sold for about $10. It was a simple and painless way of updating the game without the need of buying a dozen new models you may not even intend to play. The sky didn't fall, the mountains didn't crumble, and the sun rose the next day. A similar deck for X-wing with revised upgrade, pilot, and rules cards would be the perfect stop-gap until a true "2.0" is ready for release.

So, I can't get the quote function to work, but this is a response to Striker8's assumption that I am a noob in the world of the tabletop gaming community.

I know exactly where you are coming from when you refer to the WK retirement system being part of their decline and the death of several top games. I was a BM for the MechWarrior line and a competitive player for years (no major titles, but I tried). When WK first introduced retirement for the MW line it was met with a lot of resentment, an a lot of good...VERY good players walked away because their investments in the game were going to become worthless. Did it sting? h*ll yes it did! "That was good money I spent on your product and now I can't use it? Bulls**t!!!"

Then I went on to the next phase of acceptance. I played and lived and ran games under the retirement system and you know what? For every seat vacated by an old player, I could get someone new to start playing. I pushed the line and it was able to sell on the basis that every so often it was going to bring everyone back to the same level, because no army, no combination was forever. Then WK did the worst thing that they could have possibly done...they reversed retirement completely right before they dropped new product.

The old players came back to see if their old plastic could still run the tables, and pieces that should have gone away remained on the table. New players were bounced from the tables by "reseen" stuff that had been gone for years, and most of them quit because they weren't willing to go online and pay $30 for a four year old DI Schmidt Dragon's Fury tank and $35 for a Mikos Wolf transport to drop it from. Old players who came back didn't need the new stuff, they just nit-picked the piece or two that would fill a gap here or there. In the end, I personally bought 80% of the final release at my venue (Wolfstrike) and gave it away as prizes after the OP system petered out, because I was hoping that somehow WK might still turn MW around, but they didn't.

So, I don't have to "research" what WK did with retirement, I went through it. I saw the good and the bad. Under this system, the miniatures can stay forever, but allowing one card (pilot, gear, title, whatever) to stay on the table forever kills future sales and allows power creep to invalidate older pieces. No company is going to continue to produce something that doesn't sell. Be realistic! Why invest if there is no hope of return?

So in answer to your post, I do know what effect "the abomination known as retirement" had on WK. When a steady consistent policy was in place, it allowed for people to play long term on a level field that was just as friendly to the newcomer as it was to the veteran, because everybody had the same opportunity to get the same stuff (as several have pointed out, X-Wing is awesome because nothing is out-of-print). It was when the PTB at WK started basing their decisions for the line on the opinions of the vocal minority who wanted to cash out their crap on eBay and messed with that policy that the whole thing went in the crapper. IMHO.

Anyway,

There you have it.

missedtrashday

Eventually FFG will have exhausted the mine that is recognisable Star Wars IP. I mean, they've already hit the bottom of the barrel with the Krxishz (whatever) fighter thing, the Starviper, the K-Wing, they invented the Raider... at this point they're already searching for new ships to release. All the good ones have been done.

What happens next? I mean, we've got three new movies being released soon. We've also got Rogue Squadron being released soon as well. With Disney behind the wheel, we can probably expect a LOT of new movies coming out. Do we expect the game to stay rooted firmly in the Galactic Civil War and ignore all the ships from the newer movies? If the game moves into new and uncharted territory, do we expect those ships to be added seamlessly to the current X Wing format? Or is it conceivable that FFG might take that opportunity to either leave the mined out X Wing era behind and start a new game, or re-build X Wing from the ground up? I mean, we've already got all the models so they could just release some card decks to update the models to the new edition and we'd all be ready to go.

Do I think the game needs a new edition? Not really. I think it could stand to be tweaked a bit but I it's pretty **** good right now.

But I don't think there's much room for growth without another edition. And I think there is a lot of demand for growth.

I personally think the new cannon movies are the logical choice for a 2.0 reboot. Will it be compatible with the existing game? I kind of doubt it, FFG is out to make money and if they let us use our old ships with a new rule set that just means less models sold so I can about gurantee that new materials will be needed for a new game. That being said I see absolutely no reason to not tap the old republic for this version, these ships would obviously exist in a post time line which would give FFG material for the next couple years as the base pool builds for the new one. Making a game at the first movie is stupid and I have watched this scenario play out badly before. First movie has hype then it takes so long for the next or the next sucks and hype dies a horrible fireball death.

Problem is if they release the new ships from the films they'll have to be better as tech moves on which in turn means they are more expensive which means people will just take the older cheaper ships.

A separate game using new ships wont have enough ships going off we've seen so far you'd have two types of ties and and x-wing with an upgraded falcon.

The most likely outcome is they release new ships for the current game which has it's own pit fall's, if the new t-70 invalidates the t-65 they will have a back lash same with the basic tie fighter.

The number of ships we've seen so far from episode VII that are the right scale for x-wing are:

For the First Order

Regular Ties ( black with white panels)

TIE/cog - rear firing with unknown attachments on wing pylons.

New shuttle

Smaller boarding craft/assault ship

For the resistance:

T-70 x-wing

The Millenium Falcon

Is there enough for a new game? Yes, I believe so. Would it have the same release schedule as the current x-wing? Probably not. Would it be a great place to try new mechanics? Sure. A separate game (or an advanced version) of the rules, with conversion/packs sold could work, though not likely.

XWing 2.0 is already going to suck. I'm waiting for version 3.0.

The number of ships we've seen so far from episode VII that are the right scale for x-wing are:

For the First Order

Regular Ties ( black with white panels)

TIE/cog - rear firing with unknown attachments on wing pylons.

New shuttle

Smaller boarding craft/assault ship

For the resistance:

T-70 x-wing

The Millenium Falcon

Is there enough for a new game? Yes, I believe so. Would it have the same release schedule as the current x-wing? Probably not. Would it be a great place to try new mechanics? Sure. A separate game (or an advanced version) of the rules, with conversion/packs sold could work, though not likely.

I kind of hope X-wing 2.0 comes out in a couple of waves and is a conversion to the 7 era, not because I want the 7 ships but because it'd be a good out: Episode 7's X-Wing releases are the point at which (currently) I've decided to call it and I'd have the complete GCW era game as a self-contained unit.

I'm trying to figure out why everyone is jumping to the movie that comes out in 6 months, but is ignoring the TV show that's been ongoing for a year.

I'm not sure what new toys Rebels will bring us, but the final episode was good enough to bring my X-Wing game to a halt as we all stopped and watched with glee.

Rebels is the real deal, it's in the right era, and it's available now.

Because it is a "kids" show.

No because the next wave (8) won't be out until the marketing of the new movie starts...thus it would be smart for wave 8 to be a rebranded/revised starter and ships from the new movie.

Rebels doesn't have the same commercial appeal as the new movies will. It won't draw the same fanbase and revive the Star Wars brand the same way a new big budget trilogy will.

I'm trying to figure out why everyone is jumping to the movie that comes out in 6 months, but is ignoring the TV show that's been ongoing for a year.

I'm not sure what new toys Rebels will bring us, but the final episode was good enough to bring my X-Wing game to a halt as we all stopped and watched with glee.

Rebels is the real deal, it's in the right era, and it's available now.

I've got nothing against Rebels - I enjoy watching it with my young son immensely!

FFG have already stated that they're not opposed to brining ships in from Rebels if there was a cool ship in the show that they'd like to use... even going so far to elaborate that if they did they'd make the model in a more realistic and less stylised fashion if they did.

And THAT's the problem with Rebels ... it's not really brining anything new to the table ship-wise - that weird TIE/troop carrier hybrid is not really a spaceship, the Gozanti was cannon before Rebels, and the A-Wing and B-Wing we already have.

The TIE advanced variant is a possibility I guess, but is it "different" enough to warrant a new model?

And that leaves only the Ghost. While it may be problematic because it is HUGE (bigger than the Falcon) and largely fills a similar role, it maybe more viable now for inclusion with the docking mechanic that wave 7 introduces. This would possibly distinguish it enough mechanically to make it's inclusion worthwhile.