It's decent on Sigma and Shadow squadron.

Its a cost thing for me. I can fit in a little more oomf with Echo then Whisper. This thread inspired me to do a Whisper + mini-swarm thing, so I guess I'll see if that works.

Because Echo without cloaking every turn becomes super predictable (like any phantom who can't cloak = dead phantom). Even with the evade token, I'd rather keep a focus with 4 agility dice than an evade with 2 agility dice.

Also, you can't use AdS to cloak and then immediately decloak before your movement anymore, based on the latest FAQ.

So is Stygium ever good?

I've done two Sigma+SPA and it was fairly strong. ACD is too dicey when you even generics can nail you, and SPA actually does a solid job of removing some of the cost of the Cloak action. I mean, it's not ACD which removes it almost entirely, but...

Okey, let's speak about the goodies for whisper:

- Still one of the best arc dodging ships.

- Able to turtle up (evade + focus with 4+ dice allow to survive untouched against those ships or times you can't arc dodge)

- PS 9 so he won't be destroyed by PS9 turrets, or ships. Also, helps in the maneuver side.

- Can use any crew.

Whisper is a reliable workhouse. It is as simple as that. Echo can be amazing, but the moment there are ships with either turrets, or that can maneuver well enough with PS9+, you have a hard time, making it less reliable against the stuff that people plays nowadays because of phantoms.

Whisper is only PS 7

The topic has been discussed before and if I remember correctly it all comes down to PS. With ACD you really want to be able cloak before someone shoots back, and since the highest PS a Phantom can have is 9, Whisper becomes the better choice.

Actually, i find that moving AFTER everyone else is actually more important this is why (in my opinion) Whisper is the better choice in competitive play. You can use tricks to boost Echo's PS to 11 during the shooting phase (Decoy, Swarm Tactics), but he will always move before PS9+, which is a big hindrance for a Phantom.

The topic has been discussed before and if I remember correctly it all comes down to PS. With ACD you really want to be able cloak before someone shoots back, and since the highest PS a Phantom can have is 9, Whisper becomes the better choice.

Actually, i find that moving AFTER everyone else is actually more important this is why (in my opinion) Whisper is the better choice in competitive play. You can use tricks to boost Echo's PS to 11 during the shooting phase (Decoy, Swarm Tactics), but he will always move before PS9+, which is a big hindrance for a Phantom.

Well, against PS9+ turrets, moving last means you have 2 agility dice (and no Whisper focus token) when they shoot at you. Fat Han who get to shoot at your first will be painful. Either way, when going up against same PS people, neither shoot first or shoot last is perfect, which makes it dependent on who you're facing. Against turret ships with same PS, I choose to move first and shoot first so I can cloak. Against non-turret ships that are higher PS, then I will move last and arc dodge.

The topic has been discussed before and if I remember correctly it all comes down to PS. With ACD you really want to be able cloak before someone shoots back, and since the highest PS a Phantom can have is 9, Whisper becomes the better choice.

Actually, i find that moving AFTER everyone else is actually more important this is why (in my opinion) Whisper is the better choice in competitive play. You can use tricks to boost Echo's PS to 11 during the shooting phase (Decoy, Swarm Tactics), but he will always move before PS9+, which is a big hindrance for a Phantom.

Well, against PS9+ turrets, moving last means you have 2 agility dice (and no Whisper focus token) when they shoot at you. Fat Han who get to shoot at your first will be painful. Either way, when going up against same PS people, neither shoot first or shoot last is perfect, which makes it dependent on who you're facing. Against turret ships with same PS, I choose to move first and shoot first so I can cloak. Against non-turret ships that are higher PS, then I will move last and arc dodge.

If your opponent has decided to field a PS10+ turret then you will be shot at at Agi2 no matter what, so you just have to be ready for it (most people pick Evade instead of focus for example). 100% in agreement regarding PS9 ships: if it's a turret (range 1-3 in particular), shooting first is a viable option although you have to have a bit more game sense to where he is going to move. Depending on the situation, you could still decide to move last - shoot second, especially if you have factored in the PS10 turrets and have a plan or gear to deal with the shot. Against non-turrets, i would also pick moving last

Yup, that's how I fly Echo. Anyone PS9 and above I am much more careful and take evade and just leave my attack to FCS until I'm able to deal a killing blow, then I take a chance (and then roll all blanks ).

But yeah, no matter which pilot people prefer, I think the designers did a good job creating Whisper and Echo such that they each have such different styles in the game to keep things fun and interesting.

Whisper is only PS 7

VI is default if i take ACD, so why would you even point that out ?

Whisper is only PS 7

VI is default if i take ACD, so why would you even point that out ?

Kyrios, as Dreadstar pointed out rather rudely, moving last and shooting first is so important for a Phantom(especially with ACD) that VI is extremely common.

For the same reason why Whisper is "better" than Echo, He can get to PS9 with VI and have a chance at deciding whether t shoot first or move last, whereas Echo's PS8 is not as necessary and can take other EPT. Even then, being PS8 is still very helpful for Echo to arc dodge most of the other ships, unless someone brings a PS9+ only list.

Whisper is only PS 7

VI is default if i take ACD, so why would you even point that out ?

Kyrios, as Dreadstar pointed out rather rudely, moving last and shooting first is so important for a Phantom(especially with ACD) that VI is extremely common.

I know. I think I'm the only Phantom jock who doesn't run it. At least, that I recall seeing on here.

I run a double sigma with rec spec and spa as I find its as survivable as a whisper, puts out the same firepower for at least 10 less points given most whisper lists. And sigmas with spa can do some awesome things like k turn, and not be quite so dependent on the extremely fickle green dice. Run it with phenir w/vi and an academy tie with a couple points for initiative bids and you have a very versatile take all comers list.