I think:

Whisper = A T/Phantom with nice defensive capabilities (high piloting skill and nice pilot ability).

Echo = A agressive and high maneuverable T/Phantom for close combat.

Select one, which is suitable for your play style.

Whisper all the way. You can actually customize and do what ever kinda Tie Phantom you want to. As with Echo, there are too many "must have" upgrades, such as VI and Recon Specialist.

The movement isn't that suberp compared to a normal tie phantom.

And so so many players favor Echo, he's easily the most played Tie-P pilot out there, which means you really don't have the element of surprise anymore when adding Echo to your squad and trying to outmaneuver with decloak.

You need VI for Whisper as well.

In my opinion, Echo has lot's of surprising maneuver combos your opponent can't anticipate at all.

As with Echo, there are too many "must have" upgrades, such as VI and Recon Specialist.

You need VI for Whisper as well.

Still never used Veteran Instincts on a Phantom, and never lost one because I didn't have it.

Whisper all the way. You can actually customize and do what ever kinda Tie Phantom you want to. As with Echo, there are too many "must have" upgrades, such as VI and Recon Specialist.

The movement isn't that suberp compared to a normal tie phantom.

And so so many players favor Echo, he's easily the most played Tie-P pilot out there, which means you really don't have the element of surprise anymore when adding Echo to your squad and trying to outmaneuver with decloak.

Must disagree for the reasons to choose Whisper here.

Whisper needs VI more than Echo to get the PS9. A PS7 Whisper is a dead whisper.

Echo's PS8 won't get him to beat Soontir, Wedge, Han, etc..., and is there purely if you want to deal with the PS8 pilots or don't have the points for other stuff like Outmaneuver.

You still see way more Whisper (at least in my local meta and the tournament scene) than Echo, and whenever I play Echo, even veterans of the ship still don't know for sure where she'll go. Whereas I generally have a good idea where Whisper will be.

You see Whisper more because Whisper will kill Echo everytime. Echo has no real chance versus Whisper and has bad games against Han for example. There are too many matches where Echo is a liability, despite having arguably a better ability.

Echo really has to take Rebel Captive to help in the Phantom mirror (either) and that means her defence or offense can suffer without Recon Spec. FCS can help a bit in regard.

Whisper, while more predictable, just has better matchups versus her major counters.

As with Echo, there are too many "must have" upgrades, such as VI and Recon Specialist.

You need VI for Whisper as well.

Still never used Veteran Instincts on a Phantom, and never lost one because I didn't have it.

I guess you don't face many Hans then.

Or soontirs.

Or whispers.

But Han is the most obvious since he gets to shoot every turn you get any close to it.

You see Whisper more because Whisper will kill Echo everytime. Echo has no real chance versus Whisper and has bad games against Han for example. There are too many matches where Echo is a liability, despite having arguably a better ability.

Echo really has to take Rebel Captive to help in the Phantom mirror (either) and that means her defence or offense can suffer without Recon Spec. FCS can help a bit in regard.

Whisper, while more predictable, just has better matchups versus her major counters.

I beg to differ. Haven't lost Echo to Whisper yet (not to say that Echo has *beaten* Whisper either, it's just usually they avoid each other).

Agree with RC, never leave home without it if you're playing Echo and expect Whisper to be around. Also, if Echo decides to joust Whisper, then yes, Whisper has the edge. But I generally do not joust Whisper alone, and either send Echo to take care of the escorts or take on Whisper with the help of my other ships.

Yes, it's an uphill battle with Echo vs Whisper, but that's the fun part, to try to outmaneuver your opponent.

I prefer Echo

I prefer Echo

I have only used my Phantom 2 times now and both used "Echo" I do well with her till one turn I forget to de-clock after shooting, shes then a sitting duck with turreted weapons, need to try " whisper" some soon. Both times the lower PS made no different to me tho.

I prefer "Echo" as the unpredictability of decloaking gives you several options to counter your opponents moves or reinforce your own attack..

Echo - 30 Points

Veteran Instincts - 1 Point
Advanced Cloaking Device - 4 Points

For 35 points this makes a good and unpredictable flanker. Whisper is good it's just personal preference that I would rather take Echo.

Echo's ability is awesome, and I can put her exactly where I want her, especially when combined with Navigator.

Sadly, I'll never have any use for a flanker that's less than PS9.

Whisper is powerhorse when fully gear up: VI, ACD, FCS and gunner what cost 44,

Echo with ACD, Lone Wolf and recon could be also fine and cost 39 ;-)

why choose? play both ;-)

Will definitely have to try out Lone Wolf sometime. at 83 points, just take Backstabber and you have 99 points of fun.

Will definitely have to try out Lone Wolf sometime. at 83 points, just take Backstabber and you have 99 points of fun.

exacly. my third ship is backstabber.

I will be happy if all cost 1 point less than 99, but all cards are worth the prize

better defense capabilities. Echo is harder to fly for one, and almost requires a recon spec to be as effective on defense. (of course, echo theoretically won't need it but theory isn't real play in my experience)

since whisper gets a free focus if her attack hits, you can throw rebel captive on to be more restrictive on hans or other phantoms

YT-1300, or any turreted ship, from my experience has never been largely effected by stress unless there's an asteroid in front of them. Not to say there aren't circumstances, but I've rarely seen them in my experiences. YMMV.

-Cal

Echo's ability gives options.

Whisper's ability gives a free action.

Taken from a very basic perspective, it ought to be pretty straightforward to identify why Whisper builds are more popular.

To capitalize on Whisper's ability, you just need to attack and hit; action economy takes care of itself.

To capitalize on Echo's ability, you need to leverage the movement options into a position advantage; this is easier said than done, and also does not depend exclusively on you.

I don't like recon specialist on my Phantoms, as I find they're not useful all that often. The reason is I do barrel rolling quite a lot on both Whisper and Echo, and don't focus. Yes, it doesn't let me modify dice the way I'd like, but shooting without getting shot at is of paramount importance in a Phantom, and barrel rolling allows that to happen. If I don't need to barrel roll, I'll focus, but I do so much barrel rolling that it feels more like wasted points. Just my own experience, of course.

As with Echo, there are too many "must have" upgrades, such as VI and Recon Specialist.

You need VI for Whisper as well.

Still never used Veteran Instincts on a Phantom, and never lost one because I didn't have it.

I guess you don't face many Hans then.

Or soontirs.

Or whispers.

But Han is the most obvious since he gets to shoot every turn you get any close to it.

Nope, though Wedge and VI Wes are pretty common. Usually my Phantoms get axed because I misjudge movement distances.

I don't like recon specialist on my Phantoms, as I find they're not useful all that often. The reason is I do barrel rolling quite a lot on both Whisper and Echo, and don't focus. Yes, it doesn't let me modify dice the way I'd like, but shooting without getting shot at is of paramount importance in a Phantom, and barrel rolling allows that to happen. If I don't need to barrel roll, I'll focus, but I do so much barrel rolling that it feels more like wasted points. Just my own experience, of course.

I face that situation often when not playing against a turreted ship, which is why I don't always love Recon Specialist and find Rebel Captive or even Weapons Engineer better (doesn't require an action). But against turreted ships, especially Falcons, most of the time you wouldn't be barrel rolling unless to get in or out of R1, and then the double focus will probably save your life.

You still see way more Whisper (at least in my local meta and the tournament scene) than Echo, and whenever I play Echo, even veterans of the ship still don't know for sure where she'll go. Whereas I generally have a good idea where Whisper will be.

For me it's the opposite, I've seen Echo much more, and imho it's as predictable as any other phantom. I cannot count the times I've outmaneuvered or blocked it's movement.

Both are good pilots, im not saying Echo is bad. I just personally prefer Whisper any day.

I prefer echo for her unpredictability.

This will increase into the scum meta as i know my main opponent will be going pirate, and they have a lot less fat hans.

I probably haven't thought this through enough, but why is Echo+Stygium not good?

You'd basically almost always have an evade action - and while you'd have to waste an action to recloak - depending on how good your movement is you can afford to not fire for a round.

or if you add an advanced sensor you can do fancy cloak/decloak movements.

I probably haven't thought this through enough, but why is Echo+Stygium not good?

You'd basically almost always have an evade action - and while you'd have to waste an action to recloak - depending on how good your movement is you can afford to not fire for a round.

or if you add an advanced sensor you can do fancy cloak/decloak movements.

Because Echo without cloaking every turn becomes super predictable (like any phantom who can't cloak = dead phantom). Even with the evade token, I'd rather keep a focus with 4 agility dice than an evade with 2 agility dice.

Also, you can't use AdS to cloak and then immediately decloak before your movement anymore, based on the latest FAQ.

Because Echo without cloaking every turn becomes super predictable (like any phantom who can't cloak = dead phantom). Even with the evade token, I'd rather keep a focus with 4 agility dice than an evade with 2 agility dice.

Also, you can't use AdS to cloak and then immediately decloak before your movement anymore, based on the latest FAQ.

So is Stygium ever good?