We played the other night, and I was in a mildly foul mood and wanted to kill something, so I opted to play as OL. I picked Quest 6 because it looked challenging (unkillable beast man chasing down the heroes) but had an interesting relic (Sword of Light)

I killed them badly. They had just opened the far door to area 2 and it was over.

We played again, and this time I was able to wipe them out while still in the first area.

Now, in both games I was lucky enough to get Charge, but I don't think my die rolls were exceptionally lucky or theirs were exceptionally bad. The guardian can only be killed by they relic, so they did try to run from him, but both times I was able to catch a character and kill him enough times to deplete their conquest tokens.

Now, we do realize that the best way to beat this is to move as quickly as possible, but one of the players pointed out that the first time you play the quest, you have no idea what to expect beyond the doors. You can only really formulate a good plan once you've already played the quest, which is kind of unfair to the heroes.

My questions are: Has anyone else experienced this quest being so one-sided? Command also affects the monster that has the ability, correct? (Though I don't think that one less damage would have saved anyone) Can anyone think of anything else that we might have done wrong that would make the quest go so badly for the heroes?

I haven't actually played this quest, but this reviewer actually suggests using this quest as a test, saying that if the heroes lose, you're either misinterpreting some rule or the overlord is playing vastly better than the heroes. And looking at the quest in the book, having the heroes lose just as they're getting into Area 2 looks fairly implausible. Maybe a blow-by-blow would be helpful?

It looks to me like the first few turns should probably go something like this:

Turn 1: All the beastmen in area 1 die, and all the heroes move forward a fair bit. Some or all of the skeletons also probably die, especially if the heroes drink vitality potions. The Guardian appears at the end of the overlord's turn, which means he doesn't get to move or attack yet.

Turn 2: Any remaining monsters in area 1 die, except possibly skeletons that run far away. Every hero is far enough down the corridor that the Guardian won't be able to reach them without a Charge card, and probably far enough that he won't reach them even with one.

Turn 3: Heroes open the chest and get ready to open the door to area 2. The Guardian shouldn't catch anyone unless he used a Charge card last turn AND uses another Charge card this turn.

Turn 4: Heroes open the door to area 2 and activate the glyph. They now have around 10 conquest, and the ability to jump back and forth between linked glyphs means that the Guardian should probably never catch them for the rest of the game. The fight in area 2 should be easy with shop weapons, let alone silver treasures.

A strong first-turn spawn or some well-placed trap cards might make things a bit messier, but I still don't see how you'd get the 2-4 kills necessary to win the game before the heroes reach the first glyph. Maybe with only 2 heroes? But the game's nearly unplayable with only 2 heroes anyway, simply because monster scaling is a joke and you can drown the heroes in spawns.

ronin3338 said:

I have never played this way. I reasoned that Master Beastmen already have +2 damage, and didn't see why they should get a benefit from commanding themselves. Besides, the description of the Command Ability specifically states that it applies to friendly figures within 3 spaces.

Antistone said:

Hmmm... that's not how I read that. My understanding of them being linked was that they both activated together for 3 conquest total, not that hereoes could move through one and appear at the other.

Honestly though, it was moot because they only got that far in the first game, and the hellhound toasted a hero for the last of their conquest.

Veinman said:

That's how we played originally, but I thought I saw in a FAQ or some other ruling that it applied to the monster with the ability also. Of course, now I can't find it again...

ronin3338 said:

I'm 99.9% sure that the figure with Command benefits from it. A quick glance at the FAQ:

Q: Does a hero using Spiritwalker to attack benefit from Command if his actual space is in range of the commander or if the hero through whom he is spiritwalking is in range of the commander?
A: The attack is made as if the attacker were in the space occupied by his ally, so he only receives the benefit from Command and similar effects if the ally’s square is in range of them. However, the hero is always in range of himself, if he has the Command ability.

That pretty says that the figure benefits from his on Command ability imho.

Antisone-

Turn 4: Heroes open the door to area 2 and activate the glyph. They now have around 10 conquest, and the ability to jump back and forth between linked glyphs means that the Guardian should probably never catch them for the rest of the game. The fight in area 2 should be easy with shop weapons, let alone silver treasures.

I just wanted to make sure you weren't implying that the Heros could actually move directly from glyph to glyph. They would have to glyph to town and then move to the 2nd glyph during the next turn. (unless there's something in the quest description I forgot)

Something definitely seems amiss though- the heros shouldn't really have that hard a time with this one.

On the issue of Command: yes , the figure that has the ability benefits from it. From the Command description in the basic rules:

"A figure with Command adds 1 to the damage and range of all attacks made by friendly figures within three spaces of it ( including itself , and ignoring line of sight)."

I'll never understand why so many people miss that part, but apparently it's a common mistake.

Oboewan said:

Correct--the heroes can go from one glyph to town, and then on the next turn can move from town to the other glyph. The neat trick on this quest is that activating one glyph also activates a glyph on the other side of the dungeon, which means you can teleport there (from town) without first having a hero run to that position through the dungeon.

So if you're heading down one side of the dungeon, and the Guardian is catching up, all the heroes can warp to town, then come out (next turn) on the other side, forcing the Guardian to go all the way around. Even spending a turn in town, this gives you such a ridiculous head start on the Guardian that it looks unlikely he'll ever catch you.

There is a potential problem with the quest where if the Guardian manages to stand on the Blade of Light before the heroes pick it up, the quest becomes unwinnable. There's been some sort of official ruling saying that the Guardian shouldn't be able to stand on it or something.

I wish that I could put up the map from the quest...

As OL, I attacked with the beastmen, and held the archers out of normal movement. Even without Charge, the guardian was able to attack the slowest character, who lagged a little behind. They could not all run the next turn because the archers still blocked the way, which allowed the guardian to close and finish off the slowpoke.

In both games, the heroes were not able to activate and use the glyphs in area 2, so the dead hero had to return through the starting glyph. Easy pickings for the guardian, especially since this was the weakest/slowest hero to begin with.

We're thinking of house-ruling that either OL cards can't be played on the guardian, or he doesn't appear till the 2nd turn.

Hmm... maybe he can't be killed by normal weapons, but if they do enough damage to kill him, he is stunned?

ronin3338 said:

OK, let's compare notes. I submit that all of the following are true:

1) Heroes get the first turn.

2) Heroes start on or adjacent to the glyph, which means up to 3 heroes can start within 6 spaces of the front beastmen.

3) Every hero in the game can move at least 5 spaces and attack twice on the first turn of the game (fatigue + vitality potion), except for Okaluk and Rakash from the ToI expansion (only 2 fatigue). So even a slow melee hero should have absolutely no problems killing at least one beastman on the first turn, barring extraordinarily unlucky die rolls.

4) There are at least 7 skills in the base game that would make it possible for a hero to attack 3 times on the first turn, and several others that increase the number of attacks or movement points the heroes could plausibly have. Odds are high that the party has at least one of these skills, so things are probably even better for them than outlined in #3.

5) If all 3 beastmen die on the first turn, they never get to attack. Considering that there's 3 of them and their positions, it would be surprising if any of them survived long enough to get a single activation, even in a game with only 2 heroes.

6) At the end of the first overlord turn (after all of the heroes have had one turn), the Guardian appears on the map, but does not move or attack. This means every hero gets 2 turns before the Guardian can even theoretically attack anyone. The heroes know his speed, so they can easily calculate exactly which spaces he can reach without a Charge.

7) Even if the skeletons move forward their entire speed on the first turn, and somehow none of them die in either of the first 2 turns (despite being right up next to the heroes), there's still space for 3 heroes to stand outside the Guardian's move+attack range, assuming that none of the monsters Charge. If they stay exactly where they are (and none of them die), then there's space for 4 heroes to get out of the Guardian's attack range on the following turn. So if you actually moved them away from the heroes, they shouldn't possibly have prevented the heroes getting out of the Guardian's range until at least the overlord's fourth turn (the Guardian's third activation).

In light of these facts, your description of the game's opening makes no sense to me. You shouldn't get a chance to attack with the beastmen unless the heroes miss several times in the first round; if the skeletons run away, they can't also block the heroes' movement away from the Guardian nearly as early as you suggest. And a hero knows where the Guardian can theoretically move when taking his turn, so barring extraordinary circumstances, ending within his attack range either means that the hero is prepared to withstand the hit or wasn't paying attention.

Antistone said:

I recall that part of the rule. We just differ on what it means. You are saying that "including itself" means that the character with command gets the benefit. I took it to mean for purposes of counting "within 3 spaces", you include the space the (master beastman) is standing on. Reading it again now, it does seem silly to say 3 spaces but including the source space, when you could just say 2 spaces. I guess I've been mis-using master beastmen all along. That makes them all the more fierce. The heroes aren't going to like that.

Veinman said:

Even more silly when that interpretation is different from how range is calculated for everything else in the game, leaves open the question of whether the figure with Command gets the bonus or not (there's still nothing to imply that he doesn't), and would make the sentence ungrammatical.

I guess I never really gave it much thought since I thought it was stupid that someone could "Command" himself. That makes no sense when you could just buff his stats from the start, which I thought they had considering the master beastman's +2 damage.

Veinman said:

This is Descent man! Sense doesn't apply

Oboewan said:

It makes total sense. The skill isn't backseat driver +1. Command means the monster is smart and leading a co-ordinated attack. He has a part in his own plans, so he gets the bonus.

Edit: It makes sense to not buff the stats from the start because other monsters without a damage / range bonus have command, like master Nagas. Also, the heroes can get command from a skill.