According to RAW, the Discipline check difficulty is only based on silhouette of the object being thrown.... A silhouette 0 object would be difficulty 0 or 1 ? My guess would be it's a difficulty of 1.

Also, if a stormtrooper hides at medium range behind a crate that I lift and hit him with using the Move Force power, I would not need to trigger the range upgrade since the target is at engaged range with the object that I throw.

I find it odd that you have a double check condition for the Move Force power... If I throw a silhouette 1 object at a target, I need to trigger the Strength upgrade once and I need to succeed a PP difficulty Discipline check, both because of size....

My take is that it would have made a lot more sense if the Discipline check would have been made like a normal ranged attack, difficulty based on distance between Force User and Target, while the Force Power check would need the necessary upgrades of Strength and Range.

Also... if I pick up a stormtrooper from a minion group and throws him at the rest of the minion group, do I do twice 10 damage because each target is damaged by the hit ?

According to RAW, the Discipline check difficulty is only based on silhouette of the object being thrown.... A silhouette 0 object would be difficulty 0 or 1 ? My guess would be it's a difficulty of 1.

Also, if a stormtrooper hides at medium range behind a crate that I lift and hit him with using the Move Force power, I would not need to trigger the range upgrade since the target is at engaged range with the object that I throw.

I always thought Sil 0 meant difficulty of 0 (Simple check), but maybe I'm wrong.

As for needing to trigger the range upgrade on a crate at medium range from the Force-user, I think you still have to.

As per the basic power rules, you can move an object at short range up to short range. The range upgrades would then allow you to throw an object at short range to medium range or long, or extreme, but the object always has to originally start at short range or engaged from the Force-user. So your example would require at least 2 pips to move the crate into the Stormtrooper because the crate is at medium range. Or you can just spend a maneuver to move into short range of the crate and then you'd just need to spend 1 pip.

At least this is how I understand the rules, but again, I may be wrong.

imachubchub is correct on both accounts. The difficulty is simple (no difficulty). I imagine adversary talent still works. one upgrade would add a purple, another would change that purple to a red, so forth and so on.

The object must start at short* range from the Force user, but can be moved up to a range band depending on the range upgrades activated.

As far as the damage of throwing one target into another, by raw, the person getting hit would take 10 damage, but it's unclear how much damage the person being thrown will receive.

*I have some other questions regarding the Move force power I submitted to FFG, I included the starting range band question as part of my submission.

As far as the damage of throwing one target into another, by raw, the person getting hit would take 10 damage, but it's unclear how much damage the person being thrown will receive.

If the object is substantially harder/denser than the target, such as a metal crate thrown at a guy, it should take no damage -- that seems to be the assumed use of the power. But if you're throwing two guys against each other, the damage they take should be equal since motion is relative, even though inertia has been imparted to one and not the other. However, since they're both soft targets (and in the interest of not breaking the game), I would argue that the total damage should remain unchanged, simply split between the two victims equally. Thus, hurling one guy at another should result in them each taking 5 damage. Because physics and partially inelastic collisions.

As far as the damage of throwing one target into another, by raw, the person getting hit would take 10 damage, but it's unclear how much damage the person being thrown will receive.

If the object is substantially harder/denser than the target, such as a metal crate thrown at a guy, it should take no damage -- that seems to be the assumed use of the power. But if you're throwing two guys against each other, the damage they take should be equal since motion is relative, even though inertia has been imparted to one and not the other. However, since they're both soft targets (and in the interest of not breaking the game), I would argue that the total damage should remain unchanged, simply split between the two victims equally. Thus, hurling one guy at another should result in them each taking 5 damage. Because physics and partially inelastic collisions.

According to RAW : "Resulting impacts deal damage to both the target and the object being moved". Since we usually throw a crate at the target, only the damage to the target would be calculated.... but if you throw a minion at the minion group, I guess that both suffer 10 points of damage, so 2x 10 damage on the minion group.

The object must start at short* range from the Force user, but can be moved up to a range band depending on the range upgrades activated.

According to RAW : "To successfully hit the target, he must generate enough Force points to move the object from its starting location to the target...". That's why I was thinking that it only considers the range of the object to the target for the number and Range upgrades to trigger. It probably means that you need to trigger the range upgrades to account for the greater range of either the object or the target.

So if you throw a crate at medium range to a trooper at long range, you would need 2 range upgrades, since max range hit is long. Same with throwing a crate at long to a trooper at medium (from the FU), you'd also need 2 range upgrades...

I think I got this.... do I ??

As far as the damage of throwing one target into another, by raw, the person getting hit would take 10 damage, but it's unclear how much damage the person being thrown will receive.

If the object is substantially harder/denser than the target, such as a metal crate thrown at a guy, it should take no damage -- that seems to be the assumed use of the power. But if you're throwing two guys against each other, the damage they take should be equal since motion is relative, even though inertia has been imparted to one and not the other. However, since they're both soft targets (and in the interest of not breaking the game), I would argue that the total damage should remain unchanged, simply split between the two victims equally. Thus, hurling one guy at another should result in them each taking 5 damage. Because physics and partially inelastic collisions.

[...]

I like splitting the damage better than everyone taking 10+ damage. It makes it a bit more balanced.

JP_JP, I am AFB at the moment, so I cannot say with 100% certainty. I recall the text worded in such a way that it assumes that the starting location of the object being is based on the force user. Knowing the location of the target is only necessary when determining if you have the range upgrades and force pips available to hit the target.

Here is my problem with the minion group example. You are cherry picking the rules for targeting an "enemy". Since you target a minion group as a single entity, I think it is a rules abuse to try and move on element of an entity into itself.

In abstract terms, it would be like trying to throw a rival at themselves. or throwing the rival's arm at their head (when the arm is still attached. quit hitting your self... quit hitting yourself!)

Now if it's one minion group vs another, or rivals, or two separate and independent targets, that's different, but three stodging minion groups with move seems like a rules abuse to me.

In abstract terms, it would be like trying to throw a rival at themselves. or throwing the rival's arm at their head (when the arm is still attached. quit hitting your self... quit hitting yourself!)

But then the Main Villian is a Force User who grew up picked on, bullied, and ostracized and now delights in petty bs bullying of others through the Force.

I'm glad I can inspire you to new heights of bullying

I'm glad I can inspire you to new heights of bullying

Thanks Driving Bear!

Here is my problem with the minion group example. You are cherry picking the rules for targeting an "enemy". Since you target a minion group as a single entity, I think it is a rules abuse to try and move on element of an entity into itself.

In abstract terms, it would be like trying to throw a rival at themselves. or throwing the rival's arm at their head (when the arm is still attached. quit hitting your self... quit hitting yourself!)

Now if it's one minion group vs another, or rivals, or two separate and independent targets, that's different, but three stodging minion groups with move seems like a rules abuse to me.

Take a nemesis and throw it at a minion group ? both would take 10 damage...

Take a minion and throw it at his minion group.... both take 10 damage... what is the difference ?

Using weapons with blast is even more powerfull against minions then using this technique...

Oh... another question...

Do you add extra success on the discipline check has extra damage on the target like other ranged attack ???

Since the text says it works like a ranged attack, I assume it does take extra damage based on the net success.

Since you ask JP...

A minion group counts as a single target for the purposes of attacks and effects against them. Since they function as a single target, it's impossible to throw a target at itself. It's akin to throwing a rival's torso at his feet.

Your argument is good IF minions were individual targets, but when grouped they are not, and so you can not legally target an object with itself.

The interaction of minion groups has actually been something that really bothered our group from the initial stages of the game, as we had a hard time defining how each individual rule interacted with a group of single targets.

Example: in an early edge beta game, there was a thug group of 3 thugs. They were nicely spread out each at medium range from each other and a specific PC with a saber. The saber character moves to engage one of them, attacks, and dealt 13 damage. the minions had a WT of 4, so three minions died... yeah... my group didn't like that. While we all agreed that COULD be narratively explained, we also all agreed that was bull.

What we reached as a consensus is that a minion group must always be engaged with itself. So if you have three storm troopers as a group, they are engaged with each other. So if I run up to one to lightsaber them, they are all within engaged range. Also, for the Move power, the whole group functions as a single target, and it's silhouette may vary based on the size of the minions and the quantity. So a 2 group of troopers may be size 1, but a 5 group may be size two.

It's not that you're wrong for playing pin ball with a minion and his team, it's just that IMO (and my friends) it is an abuse of a technicality, and not really the spirit of the move power and the minion rules. I'm not here to tell anyone how they should play, but that struck us wrong, in the same way that some people really don't like the idea of playing a darksider, as it breaks the verisimilitude of the game.

Thebearisdriving

I understand what you are saying... I also keep minions engaged together... if they split up, I split up the minion group into lesser minion groups.

But I think your "house rule" does have a few flaws... According to your ruling, a grenade thrown at a minion group would only deal it's base damage. Even if you trigger blast, it wont damage the minion group again.... If I shoot the group with a gun with limited ammo, like the Dueling Pistol, then if I deal enough damage to kill 2 minions, it will, even if I only fired 1 shot...

Sometime, I believe that you can't have everything feel perfectly fine... you have to bend reality a bid to make things work and enjoy the simple things... I could say that Obi-wan in TPM used Force Push to knockdown those 3 battles droids going for him, but since Force Push doesn't exist in this system, I could say he slammed the first droids into the 2 others even if they were the same minion group.

The situations you described (grenade and limited ammo 1) aren't a function of my interpretation... they are the RAW (By my understanding). That's not a house rule.

My end point is if you treat a minion group as a single target, then it follows all the rules for a single target. For better or worse. they all are affected by misdirect, they all are restrained by bind, they all are thrown by a move check (and not against each other). People shouldn't cherry pick which and when the rules should apply.

My solution of requiring them to be engaged is a house rule, since that isn't explicitly stated in the rules, but solves a lot of minor in game issues my group ran across. For us.

EDIT: Apparently there is a ruling in the EotE forum that says that blast affects each minion in an engaged group. (Funny story, this was how we have been playing it too, but I thought that was a "house rule" on our part.) Personally, I think this directly contradicts the whole paragraph in the NPC section about minions, but if the designer says this is RAI, who am I to judge?

That being said, I tend to try and go by the rules as they are logically laid out, and if a section claims that you treat a minion group as a single target, I will default to the rules text. Again, I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, but the whole idea of abstractly dealing with minions as a group is that it should simplify the game by cutting out corner cases, not creating more.

Driving Bear and JP_JP:

My group has an "inconsistent" rule when it comes to Minions and damage**

One attack, one kill*. No matter how much damage is done you only drop one Minion. This may mean the next few Minions only need a paper cut's worth of damage (minimum 1 Wound on an attack) to collapse like a house of cards, but so be it. Also we tend to have Minions suffering from "0" Wound status (ie the group is out of wounds, but because of our house rule they're still standing) run away defeated (or attempt to flee anyway).

* Blast rules notwithstanding. We adjudicate Blast rules and a few other edge cases as hitting each Minion individually.

Now, by "inconsistent" I mean there were several times due to Two Weapon Fighting and multiple Crits our Soaky Lizard would wipe out 4 Minions of a 5-6 Minion group, in those cases the GM just hand waved them all dead/unconscious due to the Bounty Hunter's superior awesomeness. He'd have likely done the same with auto-fire or if our Dual Pistol Smuggler had ever scored that many kills (and that much damage).

** This house rule came about as we somehow were under the impression that that's basically how it was supposed to work. By the time we'd figured out the real way it was supposed to work we decided to stick with our version.