My gaming group and I just started playing through "The Shadow Rune" campaign with the Lair of the Wyrm expansion "in effect." I decided to use Baron Zachareth's plot deck (I forget the name right now) also. After thinking about it, I realized I might not be able to.

I know I can't use the Baron as an agent to replace an open group since he's one of the principal lieutenants but I can still use the rest of the plot deck, right?

I believe you can use Zachareth's plot deck. By the lieutenant pack rules, you are only barred from using his agent during quests that feature him as a lieutenant. That is only the interlude and finale, where you can't use any agent anyway.

However I don't own Zachareth's deck, so I don't know if any special rules are on his cards that say otherwise. Additionally it's thematically strange for him to show up in an act I quest as an agent before the heroes are supposed to know he's a bad guy oops! Played your hand too early Z!

You can't use him as an agent in any Shadow rune campaign .. per the card that summons him as an agent.

You can't use him as an agent in any Shadow rune campaign .. per the card that summons him as an agent.

This is correct. While many more minor lieutenant packs say that the agent can't be used in the quests in which that lieutenant is featured, Zachareth is a more central character, and can't be used as an agent at all in "The Shadow Rune" campaign. His deck is otherwise fair game.

The wording can also be different because unlike Valyndra or Bol'Goreth, Zachareth, Mirklace, and Ariad don't appear in any rumor quests or outside of their main campaign.

Zachareth's importance to the plot in general is part of the reason I chose it as my first try with Plot decks; it seemed thematically appropriate. The other reason I chose it is I've heard it's a pretty powerful deck and my players keep steamrolling me.

Zachareth's importance to the plot in general is part of the reason I chose it as my first try with Plot decks; it seemed thematically appropriate. The other reason I chose it is I've heard it's a pretty powerful deck and my players keep steamrolling me.

I recommend taking a look at Mirklace- Zachareth's deck is very powerful, no doubts there. We've had an OL consistently getting threat for the use of "Shifting Earth," (he's only bought one other card) which is devastating when played at the right time- and only costs 1 threat to trigger.

I second the choice about Mirklace, there aren't many good cards in his plot deck but the ones that are good are freaking awesome. That includes the agent, because Mirklace is a hell of a creature. Gameplay aside, the look on the face of my players the first time I pulled out the mini was priceless. I had played Bol Goreth before but Mirklace took the cake in terms of wow factor. The best part is, it lived up to its expectations as heroes broke down on him like waves crash on to the shore. One of my best memories in this game, really. The quest objective suddenly became the issue of how to kill him.

But wait, there is more. I am currently playing with the Tristayne Olliven deck and I am totally a-m-a-z-e-d. It revolutioned my (initially negative) view of plot cards. You can play these 0-cost cards and make your monster hit very hard, especially when you can combine attacks with OL cards to get extra damage or surges. I do this EVERY turn. There is zero reason not to, and that to me gives a purpose to plot cards that I wasn't able to see before. Because everything was sooo situational, gave them fortune tokens etc. I never really wanted to go all-in with those unless they made me win on the spot, because of the price of playing these cards. I don't like punishing mechanisms so I considered plot cards as being more risky tha n useful in general.

Maybe I´m lucky to face a party of heroes with low willpower, but the card earning you one threat for each willpower test failed (paired with basic II for best use!) ensures a constant stream of threat coming your way. Of course like everything else in this particular deck, it can backfire big time on you, but I´ve found these situations quite marginal as you tend to play these plot cards when you know you won't suffer said side effects. I also really enjoy the exploding fall card damaging everything within 2 squares of the dying monsters. I love global damage because it forces the players to consider group healing, which is difficult to achieve unless the group is clustered and the healer has enough stamina to run his thing. He needs to rest, well great, just play the basic II card punishing him for it. What a great moment when you can chain these cards together. I also like the plot card giving Ravage to a monster group when played at the beginning of encounter 2 of a quest with half-damaged heroes. It's awesome to give this to Rat Swarms to finish off the heroes for the lulz. I rarely seek for alphastriking a hero because there is barely any point in doing so, but when you get that much firepower in your hands it is quite an experience to play the "heroes way" and see them fall down one by one.

Tristayne Olliven's deck is one of my favorite as well. I very much enjoy Rylan Olliven's as well, and Baron Zachareth's deck is just nuts. Raythen's is hilarious for screwing with treasure for the heroes, there are a lot of great options.

Unfortunately, Mirklace and Tristayne are two of the decks I don't have yet. I guess those will be next on my list of things to buy. Thanks for the help.

As many of you know, I am a long time, seasoned Descent player (both D1e and D2e, and mostly as OL).

I own everything for D2e, but up until now, I have never utilized one of the Lieutenant Expansions with the plot decks. For that reason, the discussion in this thread intrigues me.

I want to pose the following question. If you own the Lt packs, and have utilized at least some of them, assume the following:

You are going into a campaign/quest/encounter of which you have no details. I formally tell you that all of the Lt's and plots are available for your use. Not having any information to go on, how would you rank the effectiveness of the Lt's?

In other words, I know that certain Lt's are probably more effective with certain campaigns/quests/encounters. But assuming you know nothing, in what order would you rank them? I am just trying to get an idea of what I should be looking to use, and would prefer to use something that will provide a well rounded experience to give me an idea of how they play.

Go go go go ... (please )

The lieutenant packs all have their different uses. I'm not a good person to rank them, because I only own 3- Alric, Gargan, and Queen Ariad. (I planned to just get the big box main baddies, but someone already had Alric when I got him for a gift... so I kept him .)

In any case, I don't think it's as simple as just ranking them in general- every pack seems to pair better or worse with an OL strategy. For example, most of Alric's cards don't boost attack- they boost defense, and give bonuses for keeping monsters alive. There is only one card in his deck that give an attack bonus, and its mostly defensive: "dark champions."

Queen Ariad is all about buffing monsters with the wilderness trait, as well as using trap cards. If you don't have an OL deck that works with traps, or any wilderness monsters in your quest, I don't know why you'd pick that deck (though you can give one group the wilderness trait at a cost.)

Gargan's deck is all over the place- causing heroes to suffer extra wounds or fatigue, giving monsters extra attacks at the cost of health, or blast with an opportunity to recover health. He's also got 2 incredible cards- "Shifting Earth" and "Crushing Exhaustion."

He wants to know because he wants one that's useful in general should he buy only one.

If I had to pick a deck knowing nothing about encounter details, I'd ask what I know of the heroes. If I'm not allowed to know that either, I'd go with Baron Zachareth's deck. The cards in that deck focus on getting more and better overlord cards. One card, Rush of Power, is extremely strong. The one you start the game off with lets you cut your deck down to 13 cards instead of 15, trimming off unneeded fat.

But if I knew what the heroes were, I might play something different to target their specific weaknesses better (or counter their strengths). If they have a treasure hunter, I might play Raythen or Valyndra. If their group is low damage high mobility, I might play Alric Farrow or Skarn to make my monsters truly unkillable.

So many good options.

I second the belief that Zachareth is the best choice if you're completely in the dark about the heroes and the campaign. Since purchasing cards is done as the campaign unfolds to react to what the heroes are doing, Zachareth is the lieutenant which plays to the Overlord's ability to adapt to changing situations. Keeping it more tightly focused with only 13 cards is great too, even if it does cost threat.

Additionally, cards like False Friends are useful no matter how good/bad the heroes are at acquiring gold, as it can deny them key items they need to gear up.

However, one other 'blind' deck I'm quite fond of is Bel'thir. His cards only buff Basic I, so make sure you are using that deck before picking him. He has some great cards that do things that are nearly always useful, like buffing Dash and Frenzy substantially for 1 threat, or allowing Dark Fortune to set a die to any face you want. Getting cheap additional reinforcements at any time with "Hazard Pay" is game-changing too, especially when using powerful small units like Ironbound or Deep Elves.

He also lets you discard unwanted Trap cards through "Fight with Honor" to avoid paying Threat and giving heroes Fortune. This stops one of the more frustrating things which can occur when using a Lieutenant Pack, which is allowing a clutch reroll of a miss from the heroes, or giving them extra actions/items through their Fortune tokens.

I do think this pack is vulnerable to the Marshal and the Wildlander because reliance on basic cards and trap card fuel can be punished with card manipulation. This isn't really true of Zachareth's deck.

I'm not a fan of Bel'thir's deck because I pretty much always use basic deck 2 (I genuinely think it's better, has a lot more versatility, only cards I miss are the dash cards).

And yeah, Rush of Power lets you draw so many overlord cards that it doesn't matter if they try to screw with your draw, you've got too many for them to stop.

I prefer Basic I most of the time myself.

I view Basic I as a club you can bash the heroes heads in with. Crude, but very effective.

Basic II is like a stiletto, requiring a lot more finesse, accuracy and good old fashioned luck to nail the heroes in their weak spots.

I don't like to rely on luck whenever possible ;-) (hence my love of Belthir's Dark Fortune buff)

Since you are in the dark, I think the "club" is better, because no matter what crazy hero composition you are facing, the deck works. Basic II can end up with dead cards if you have heroes that are all strong in a specific attribute, or can prevent you from using any of your class "boosters" if they just don't have that class. For example, Blinding Speed is really lame if you can't hit a Warrior with it.

However, if you like Basic II, I can only recommend Zachareth's deck even more strongly. Nefarious Power is an incredible card to help ensure their attribute tests fail when you really need them to, something Basic II really depends on.

From the sounds of it, my picking Zachareth on a whim was a good thing.

Oh, if you are playing that plot deck, rush of power is the best card in deck. For one threat at start of turn you draw two and end. I feel for the cost that is the strongest one in any deck. Oh and if you want to be mean to heroes get Meticulous planning and use it only when the shop item card comes up. Never let then get an easy item.

We actually officially retired Baron as we feel due to those 2 he is too powerful.

Zachareth's fine... but I just find him so boooooring. His deck is indeed very powerful, and I agree you should pick this one in a vacuum if you´re just after the best choice possible at general level. However it is just not my style of play. Everything in this deck is made to interact almost robotically with other mechanisms, like OL cards, search cards etc. There is no "if" or "roll to check". There is no "I will do this so I can use this plot card", or "I will make the heroes do this so I can play this card". There is never that sense of danger from the heroes side because everything is so inevitable and predictable. You draw the treasure chest, BAM! pick another card. No attribute test, no dice roll, just raw inevitability. It's almost like the heroes have to suck it up intially and give up the effect of the cards you purchase and incorporate it in their strategy. As opposed to other types of decks where everybody sees what effect you can play but they never know when you want to trigger it because there is no given any longer. Sometimes an effect being situational is a bigger threat psychologically. People can give up on the fact you run 13 OL cards in your deck instead of 15. There is nothing they can do about it. But this Mirklace card Shifting Earth for instance is something they have to live with for the reminder of the campaign and need to keep thinking of, putting further strain on their planning/focus.

If you are like me you want some other type of juice.

I can't quite give a full ranking of all LT plot decks because I´ve only used a few of them. As a general thumb rule, I avoid every "themed" plot deck resolving around a monster type. It's just the fact that I think it restricts your choice of monster so much, or makes you give fortune away to make monsters become of the chosen type. I think that's the weakest plot deck mechanism by far. Then sure, if we have access to 20 monsters for each type in 3 years time then fine, but that's not the case today.

0-cost threat cards is what makes me happy. Tristayne my friend. Rylan is going to be my next friend.

Some people will probably disagree, but the threat->fortune spent to trigger Sir Alric Farrow's defense cards just negates the whole point. Who cares if my monsters are harder to kill if I give as many extra actions and dice rolls to the heroes to kill them.

Bol Goreth is probably the best choice you can make if you intend on investing in the Infector class. Some say Zachareth is good too, but you can also invest in Plan Ahead cards and Refresh if all you want is hitting your best card all over again.

Zachareth's fine... but I just find him so boooooring. His deck is indeed very powerful, and I agree you should pick this one in a vacuum if you´re just after the best choice possible at general level. However it is just not my style of play. Everything in this deck is made to interact almost robotically with other mechanisms, like OL cards, search cards etc. There is no "if" or "roll to check". There is no "I will do this so I can use this plot card", or "I will make the heroes do this so I can play this card". There is never that sense of danger from the heroes side because everything is so inevitable and predictable. You draw the treasure chest, BAM! pick another card. No attribute test, no dice roll, just raw inevitability. It's almost like the heroes have to suck it up intially and give up the effect of the cards you purchase and incorporate it in their strategy. As opposed to other types of decks where everybody sees what effect you can play but they never know when you want to trigger it because there is no given any longer. Sometimes an effect being situational is a bigger threat psychologically. People can give up on the fact you run 13 OL cards in your deck instead of 15. There is nothing they can do about it. But this Mirklace card Shifting Earth for instance is something they have to live with for the reminder of the campaign and need to keep thinking of, putting further strain on their planning/focus.

If you are like me you want some other type of juice.

I can't quite give a full ranking of all LT plot decks because I´ve only used a few of them. As a general thumb rule, I avoid every "themed" plot deck resolving around a monster type. It's just the fact that I think it restricts your choice of monster so much, or makes you give fortune away to make monsters become of the chosen type. I think that's the weakest plot deck mechanism by far. Then sure, if we have access to 20 monsters for each type in 3 years time then fine, but that's not the case today.

0-cost threat cards is what makes me happy. Tristayne my friend. Rylan is going to be my next friend.

Some people will probably disagree, but the threat->fortune spent to trigger Sir Alric Farrow's defense cards just negates the whole point. Who cares if my monsters are harder to kill if I give as many extra actions and dice rolls to the heroes to kill them.

Bol Goreth is probably the best choice you can make if you intend on investing in the Infector class. Some say Zachareth is good too, but you can also invest in Plan Ahead cards and Refresh if all you want is hitting your best card all over again.

I think Zachareth is the best choice if you plan on running Infector. The worst thing that can happen to you with infector is not getting your important cards early in the quest. It sucks horribly when you draw them near the end of encounter 2 and had no chance to build up infection tokens. Having the ability to reduce your deck size to 13 and draw extra cards drastically reduces the weaknesses of the infector deck while allowing you to play it to it's fullest potential.

I did already mention I very much like the Olliven brothers, they are great decks. Raythen's is another favorite.

A lof of the plot decks can be a ton of fun: Zachareth's isn't quite as much fun as some others, but it does have more power than others and is probably the overall strongest plot deck.

Bol'Goreth SEEMS like it would interact well with Infector - but it's actually overkill, you wind up with two different overlapping strategies competing for resources. (A friend played that combo and found it really weak.) Zachareth was a MUCH better pairing with Infector, essentially letting him play a 10-card deck by Encounter 2.

I 100% agree with the consensus that Zachareth is the strongest deck. One huge problem I have with it, though, are that two of his strongest cards - False Friends and Meticulous Planning - screw with the game in a way I find really problematic. They mess with the heroes' advancement (their acquisition of gold and items) in a way that doesn't really have much strategic drawback. (Meticulous Planning, especially.) That's not something that attacks the heroes' strategic advantages in the game - it's something which attacks the FUN that the heroes get out of the game. Yes, also their power levels - but there are a million ways to impact the heroes' ability to win games without impacting their enjoyment.

To me, half of the fun of the game is the play, and half is character building and advancement. I don't have to tell the people on this board - getting the Treasure Chest is one of the most exciting things that can happen, most of the time. Screwing with that isn't just screwing with the players' power and strategic advantages, it's removing that hugely fun and exciting moment. I wouldn't mind if Meticulous Planning removed one of the heroes' items for the entire encounter - that actually sounds reasonable - but being able to kill the treasure chest... bad idea.

To me, half of the fun of the game is the play, and half is character building and advancement. I don't have to tell the people on this board - getting the Treasure Chest is one of the most exciting things that can happen, most of the time. Screwing with that isn't just screwing with the players' power and strategic advantages, it's removing that hugely fun and exciting moment. I wouldn't mind if Meticulous Planning removed one of the heroes' items for the entire encounter - that actually sounds reasonable - but being able to kill the treasure chest... bad idea.

Ah hell, the **** heroes don't deserve treasure or relics or gold ...

While that card does sound powerful, it could be worse. In D1e there was a treachery card called Crushing Blow which allowed you to basically destroy a powerful weapon or powerful armor, etc. Imagine being into Act II, and having a hero with no weapon or no armor. Yikes !!!