I think this is why one of the best things they can do is break up the lightsaber crystal mods into crystals and emitters. as that would chop down the number of mods back down to a reasonable level. and also have some method to take more time or some other method of lowering the difficulty besides talents.

Despair during crystal modding?

Skeksis! Skeksis everywhere!

So by RAW 5D is the maximum in any pool? Odd, isn't it? Which pool will a character who is trying to flee from a Rancor (Atheltics 0 but Brawn 6) roll on an opposed check?

No, 5 purple is the maximum if using the standard difficulty scale. An opposed check is going to break that by default since it's not using the standard difficulty scale.

So by RAW 5D is the maximum in any pool? Odd, isn't it? Which pool will a character who is trying to flee from a Rancor (Atheltics 0 but Brawn 6) roll on an opposed check?

No, 5 purple is the maximum if using the standard difficulty scale. An opposed check is going to break that by default since it's not using the standard difficulty scale.

Personally I'm fine with a player sweating over whether to risk 10,000Cr and all their hard work so far in greedily pushing for those last couple of possible mods. Let 'em make choices, I say.

If difficulty caps at 5 Purple, could the argument be made that no more than 5 Mods can be made to an Attachment? This leads to 'choosing wisely' on the Mods instead of just 'maxing out' on the Mods.

So now there's an errata question I'd like to see: "Can Mods go beyond the Difficulty cap (which would go into Upgrading the Check) or are they limited to only 5 Mods per Attachment?"

So now there's an errata question I'd like to see: "Can Mods go beyond the Difficulty cap (which would go into Upgrading the Check) or are they limited to only 5 Mods per Attachment?"

The simplest solution to this particular "problem" is to Upgrade instead of Increasing the difficulty. 1 - You get red dice faster, 2 - It makes every mod past the first something to sweat over.

I don't believe that it is explicitly stated anywhere that you can only roll a total of 5 (or 6) purple dice.

The only reference to that number is the base difficulty scale. I can't find any text that says you can't increase it beyond that number.

I don't believe that it is explicitly stated anywhere that you can only roll a total of 5 (or 6) purple dice.

The only reference to that number is the base difficulty scale. I can't find any text that says you can't increase it beyond that number.

Exactly.

Doc, that's a little loose of an argument. Not a bad one, just a loose one.

What is a rule is the side bar on tasks that are "impossible" which does present an "impossible" task at 5 difficulty. While you're right, Sam's suggestion seems to partially confirm the idea that you probably shouldn't exceed 5 dice (difficulty + challenge). Like I said, it's not something that comes up often, but RAW in the beta, it's gonna come up a lot more if the ilum crystal isn't changed, or the rules are not clarified in a more official form.

Doc, that's a little loose of an argument. Not a bad one, just a loose one.

I can't think of a stronger argument for a rule not existing than "it is not written anywhere."

The side-bar in question is discussing narratively impossible tasks, such as convincing Darth Vader not to kill the jedi in your party and just let him get away. It is about those moments where a GM would just flat out refuse a die roll, and then suggesting a format for sometimes allowing a roll. If it were about tasks over 5 dice, then it would explicitly state that.

I hope they make it clear that on a failure the mod is destroyed. and not that you can never try that mod again. I had a when good games go bad because the GM tried to ruin my lightsaber crystal in that manner.

I hope they make it clear that on a failure the mod is destroyed. and not that you can never try that mod again.

I know. You need to buy a new mod and try again. It costs you the credits to replace the mod you were attempting to install as you broke it.

Buy a new "attachment".

A despair breaks the attachment. A failure to install a mod just disallows that mod. You may still install the other mods.

Huh. That's not how I interpreted it.

Example: PC buys a Balanced Hilt mod for his Vibro-Axe and installs it. The Axe gets the Accurate +1 Quality from the Attachment and has 2 Mods available. PC buys the first mod (100 creds) and tries to install the Decrease Encumbrance by 1 mod. He fails.

By my understanding, that Attachment can never have the Decrease Encumbrance Mod. It's a "ruined slot".

By yours, the PC spends another 100 credits and tries again.

I wonder which is the correct interpretation? Hmmm, I see this question hasn't been asked before so I'm sending it in.

The question I posed:

------------------------

Modding Attachments:

The rules, EotE pg 187:

"If he succeeds, he successfully installs the mod on his gear, and the item now benefits from the bonus provided by the mod. If he fails, however, the mod is not installed, and he may not attempt to install that mod again. If he failed and his check generated at least one [Despair], the attachment is also rendered useless by his tinkering.

The part I'm curious about is this line: "If he fails, however, the mod is not installed, and he may not attempt to install that mod again."

I have encountered two interpretations, I'll give an example:

PC buys a Balanced Hilt mod for his Vibro-Axe and installs it. The Axe gets the Accurate +1 Quality from the Attachment and has 2 Mods available. PC buys the first mod (100 creds) and tries to install the Decrease Encumbrance by 1 mod. He fails.

By one interpretation that Attachment can never have the Decrease Encumbrance Mod. It's a "ruined slot".

By another, the PC spends another 100 credits and tries again.

Which interpretation is the correct one?

Thank you,

EvilE

Buy a new "attachment".

A despair breaks the attachment. A failure to install a mod just disallows that mod. You may still install the other mods.

Part of the concern with that part of the mechanics is that a lightsaber focusing crystal is several thousand credits, and most groups in this system are typically very resource poor. As others have noted, for most attachments this isn't a huge deal as the only way to get a Challenge die in the pool is for the GM to flip a Destiny Point to upgrade the check.

The non-saber attachments that have a similarly high price tag generally don't have many (if any) modification options, to say nothing of having the in-setting connotations that construction, maintenance, and customization of a lightsaber is generally seen as a very personal thing, particularly to those that choose to follow the Jedi traditions.

The lightsaber crystals, and the Ilum Crystal (aka "basic default crystal") specifically, go counter to that, since if Sam's answer on what happens once the difficulty goes past 5 purple is indeed the official interpretation, then you've got a dice pool that's going to very quickly start including Challenge dice, and if that Despair comes up, the entire weapon is worthless until a replacement crystal can be obtained. Which is again a contrast to other weapon attachments since a Despair only ruins the attachment, not the entire weapon; a PC that gets a Despair when trying to squeeze in that last modification on their Blaster Actuating Module for their heavy blaster pistol only loses the attachment, not the entire rifle, and so only loses a small bit of their combat effectiveness (the extra damage and Pierce qualities) but they've still got a perfectly functional heavy blaster pistol, to say nothing of buying a new Blaster Actuating Module is a drop in the bucket compared to buying a new lightsaber focusing crystal that isn't restricted to only dealing stun damage.

There's also the issue that it was very much meant by the designers for a PC to be able to fully modify an Ilum crystal so that they could have a lightsaber with the same performance values as the EotE/AoR versions of the lightsaber. Which is going to be incredibly difficult to accomplish even for a PC that's focused on Mechanics, since the dice pool for the 7th modification on the Ilum crystal would be 4 reds and a purple, which would require a significant amount of luck to succeed at.

If the crystals were less expensive or more commonly available, then getting a suitable replacement wouldn't be as much of an issue. But for the era the game is set in by default (and that most folks are generally going to be playing in), that's not the case, and obtaining a lightsaber crystal, particularly one of the better variates such as the Mephite Crystal or Krayt Dragon Pearl is a pretty big deal for the PC, akin to Frodo receiving Sting and his uncle Bilbo's mithral shirt in the Lord of the Rings, or how the reforging of the shards of Narsil into Anduril was a big deal for Aragorn in the film adaptations.

There's also the issue that it was very much meant by the designers for a PC to be able to fully modify an Ilum crystal so that they could have a lightsaber with the same performance values as the EotE/AoR versions of the lightsaber. Which is going to be incredibly difficult to accomplish even for a PC that's focused on Mechanics, since the dice pool for the 7th modification on the Ilum crystal would be 4 reds and a purple, which would require a significant amount of luck to succeed at.

Is this truly the intent?

I am familiar with the fact that the Lightsaber in the first 2 core rulebooks were fully tricked out versions of the Illum lightsaber, but do the designers fully intend for the player to utilize all the mods? It seems with the difficulty so high after just one or two mods (for any piece of modifiable equipment), that it's very much the design intent on that not all mods are going to be used - due to failure when attaching the mod.

There's also the issue that it was very much meant by the designers for a PC to be able to fully modify an Ilum crystal so that they could have a lightsaber with the same performance values as the EotE/AoR versions of the lightsaber. Which is going to be incredibly difficult to accomplish even for a PC that's focused on Mechanics, since the dice pool for the 7th modification on the Ilum crystal would be 4 reds and a purple, which would require a significant amount of luck to succeed at.

Is this truly the intent?

I am familiar with the fact that the Lightsaber in the first 2 core rulebooks were fully tricked out versions of the Illum lightsaber, but do the designers fully intend for the player to utilize all the mods? It seems with the difficulty so high after just one or two mods (for any piece of modifiable equipment), that it's very much the design intent on that not all mods are going to be used - due to failure when attaching the mod.

That was the answer I got from Sam when I asked this at GenCon this year. It's part of what lead to eventually starting up a thread about the possibility of using Discipline to modify a lightsaber crystal instead of just straight Mechanics, though said thread has now morphed into a collection of alternate methods of how to address this particularly concern.

I'm sure FFG's going to be hit with a fair amount of feedback regarding lightsaber attachments and the modification given that's specifically what they asked folks to beta test in the article for the last update.

The question I posed:

(snip)

I posed this same question last month and have yet to hear anything back.

It makes a huge difference on lightsaber mods.

As far as the attachment (crystal) goes, though, I'm sure it entirely intentional. After all, consider what "modding" a crystal would mean. Now, to do that over and over again would almost certainly increase the probability of striking a flaw in the crystal or some other mistake as you have less material to work with.

However, when it comes to replacing it, I might allow a player to pulverize the Despaired remnants as a base for creating a new, artificial crystal. But without significant consequence to attempting the changes, one might as well roll for time spent instead of success/failure.

Also, a lightsaber crystal is less sting in LotR and more a magic item in older editions of D&D.

Doc, that's a little loose of an argument. Not a bad one, just a loose one.

I can't think of a stronger argument for a rule not existing than "it is not written anywhere."

The side-bar in question is discussing narratively impossible tasks, such as convincing Darth Vader not to kill the jedi in your party and just let him get away. It is about those moments where a GM would just flat out refuse a die roll, and then suggesting a format for sometimes allowing a roll. If it were about tasks over 5 dice, then it would explicitly state that.

I think that's different though. There are five difficulties (with dice) given. That's not quite the same. The difficulty chart in Edge shows a clear progression of Difficulties, from simple (-) to formidable (5). One of the examples of daunting is finding shelter and food on a planet with out a breathable atmosphere. That's a fairly significant task. The side bar addresses items more challenging than formidable, and considering that example, their example of an impossible task (putting out a fire with a grenade) seems more possible than the formidable example, to me (using a grenade, to scatter the possible combustible material, or consume more of the oxygen to reduce fuel for the fire).

Also, I'd like to point out this sentence (EotE pg 17) "there are 6 basic difficulty levels (see the Impossible tasks sidebar on page 18 for an optional seventh difficulty level)."

That seems to me to be a pretty clearly worded rule that says there are actually 5 dice maximums.

So like I said. A pretty loose argument. But not necessarily a wrong one (there is still some ambiguity left in those rules, but not much, especially since Sam himself said that the extraneous difficulty should be upgraded.)

Also, I'd like to point out this sentence (EotE pg 17) "there are 6 basic difficulty levels (see the Impossible tasks sidebar on page 18 for an optional seventh difficulty level)."

That seems to me to be a pretty clearly worded rule that says there are actually 5 dice maximums.

Eh, explicit is always stronger than implicit . I read that as basic difficulties, i.e. starting points. They are where you begin to build a dice pool.

If there is a hard cap at 5, then you get some problems. The most immediate is that positive dice have no upper cap, so you end up with ability eventually outstripping challenge. Also, abilities go up to 6 (7+ when you factor in cybernetics). If the hard cap is at 5 dice, then a max skill guy with 5 stat is just as easy to oppose as a max skill guy with 7 stat. If they intended the cap to be at 5, then abilities would have capped there.

In the end, there are so many places in the rules to mention a hard cap (basic difficulty, adding dice when upgrading, opposed rolls) that it stretches belief that they just forgot to mention it.

Eh, explicit is always stronger than implicit . I read that as basic difficulties, i.e. starting points. They are where you begin to build a dice pool.

I agree, and argue for explicit, even in narrative systems whenever possible. It's why I neer said you were wrong, because their's no authoritative declaration

In the end, there are so many places in the rules to mention a hard cap (basic difficulty, adding dice when upgrading, opposed rolls) that it stretches belief that they just forgot to mention it.

I don't think they "forgot." I think it's a combination of that they don't care/not a core element of the rules (again it comes up how often) and that they thought that having a table and side bar were sufficient to address all but the corner cases and technicalities.

I would say at this point that either the Ilum cystal will be changed, the rule will be clarified, or both. I mean they could do neither, but after all this chatter on line, that would jsut be spite. Spite for the player base. YOUR Warhammer roots show through to the end you dark game designer lord!!!

Eh, explicit is always stronger than implicit .

...

I agree, and argue for explicit, even in narrative systems whenever possible.

I don't think they "forgot." I think it's a combination of that they don't care...

Good designers, but lacking a bit in the "clear communication" skills and I think several of the designers are working at cross purposes. I keep getting a bit of the "Andy Chambers" smell in the rules*.

For those not savy to that reference: Andy Chambers worked on D&D 3e. At one point he became the "Rules Sage" and began answering rules questions not based on how the Rules Were Written or even In The Spirit Of The Rules, but rather based on his house rules, which sometimes radically differed the RAW and RAI. I keep running into spots in these rules were it feels like two different rules philosophies butted heads and wrote things differently in different areas of the book.