Alys Raine the Marshall is broken.

I'd like to think I have a reasonable tolerance for cheese, but I strongly believe that Zealous Fire + By the Book must be changed from its current form. This is especially true if Alys picks up the relic from Manor of Ravens to get +1 lore (90%+ success chance) or Lucky Charm, but is still crazy without it.

For the uninitiated:

(1xp) Zealous Fire may exhaust and gives 1 stamina when the Overlord plays a card.

(2xp) By the Book may exhaust for 1 stamina cost when Overlord plays a card to allow a hero to test Lore. Shields are added equal to the XP cost of the card. On a pass, the OL places the card facedown on top of his deck and it doesn't resolve. On a fail, hero suffers a stamina loss.

Its already too good by simply cancelling the card, but putting it on top of my deck just breaks it. This means the heroes know exactly what I am going to draw. Furthermore, if they play this same trick every round then I'm often locked out of the rest of my deck. All that deck building down the drain.

It is no fun at all and makes me wonder if they ever playtested this class.

I honestly don't see any workaround to a simple 3xp investment for a hero. Not play OL cards? My heroes are skilled players and many of my wins in this game come down to key Frenzies and Dashes. Unfortunately these are by far the most common targets for this skill!

It also doesn't require any strategic planning on the heroes part other than not fully exhausting Alys. I can't reposition to escape the effect. I can't choose different monsters to mitigate it. I can't choose specific quests to mitigate it. It doesn't require an action. It doesn't even cost stamina when it passes. My only recourse is to knock her out or make her completely fatigued. Knowing that, heroes have a plethora of options to make her an uninviting or outright invalid target. Not to mention the Marshall herself can do that as well.

Essentially I feel like this effect is always on me: "Once per turn, while Alys is on the map and is not fully fatigued, Alys may cause any basic overlord card to have a 70-90% chance to fizzle and be placed on top of the deck." Overlords can't take that lying down!

If I were the heroes, and in it to win, I can't imagine ever not bringing Alys the Marshall into the party, and no hero should be that powerful.

I am very tempted to either ban this class outright or house rule that it only affects non-basic OL cards.

Thoughts? Anyone else feel that these skills need to be updated? If you don't agree, I would very much like to hear what you think is a realistic response for an OL.

/rantoff

This really seems hard on the OL. The only weakness of this skill is that it has to be exhausted. So one way to circumvent is would be to not play OL-cards until you have a lot of them and then start with a situational card that could mess up the heroes plan. They will really want to use her skill on this and if they do you are free to play your dash and frenzy cards in your turn. If they don't, you can continue this strategy until they do and if they don't you get a lot of OL cards through.

Hey DAMaz. Thanks for your reply. I agree that hoarding up your cards and playing them all in one turn can help, but it seems an extreme response required. A smart hero will notice the large hand size and wait for a truly dire card to sabotage.

And of course if the group plays with a Danger Sensing wildlander as well, then amassing cards is not an option :-(

Hmm you're right. However I don't think you have to go to the extreme card-hoarding and playing all at once. I thought about just getting some more cards in total ~6-8 cards and then start playing the insignifcant cards one by one in a situation where they really mess with the heroes plans. If they choose to not block them, just don't play another card this turn (if that's possible). If you really need that crucial dash or frenzy you could hope for drawing both or play another good card in advance to bait out the ability. If they don't fall for the bait think twice about playing the frenzy or just be content that they let this strong card through.

Summing up I think the best way to play around this ability is to make it hard for them to use it. Having a larger hand will probably make them cautious enough to not use it instantly when you play a card, because they think you will play something stronger. If you don't follow up with a stronger card they essentially didn't use this ability this turn. This leads them to maybe block weaker cards or block only very few cards in total, diminishing the impact of those 3XP, they could've spent on offensive/defensive abilities.

That being said, I still think this ability is very strong.

I played her as a marshall and the OL wins. The OL needs to carrefully chooses his actions, but It's not so broken.

I am the law is the only really way to much powerfull card. counter attack with no fatigue and can stun the monster or immobilize it is way too strong

Keep in mind that if she's maxed out on fatigue, she can't use by the book even with zealous fire, since she needs to have stamina available to activate by the book and they'd resolve at the same time (she can't choose to activate by the book after zealous fire resolves), so if you can target her stamina it helps a ton.

I've found that the marshal, especially Alys Raine is rather stamina hungry. A lot of monsters can punish that fairly well and there are cards that can punish that if you time things right. Using changelings can reduce her effectiveness a fair amount as a lot of her abilities require knowledge tests, and their surge for wither really nukes her ability to do anything at all (wither doesn't even need to do damage, as long as the attack hits and you roll a surge). Anything that targets awareness is potent. Frankly, I think the most obnoxious marshal ability is "I am the law".

I wouldn't go so far as to call the Marshal overpowered. It is strong, but frankly until now most warrior classes have sucked. The Marshal suffers the same weakness as the Skirmisher: lot of strong abilities but not enough fatigue to really keep them going.

Also, you can fake her out by playing a card you don't really want to use this turn to force her to put it on top of the deck and then play the card you want after.

As for screwing with overlord cards, this isn't a new mechanic. The wildlander from the core game can spend an action every turn just destroying your cards, which can be outrageously obnoxious. I don't see this as being much better.

Also, if you're up against a marshall, use basic deck 2. Befuddle can make a big difference against them, especially if she's near a master changeling (changelings are great all around anyway).

Using the enchanter deck of overlord cards can help: play them early on before you need them. If she keeps putting them back on top, keep replaying them. Meanwhile, she won't be able to stop your other cards.

And if she took By the Book, be glad she didn't take I Am The Law instead.

I'm a lot more worried about Just Reward + I Am The Law than I am of Zealous Fire and By the Book.

Also, choose a good plot deck to help counter her. Her abilities can't do anything about those. Rush of Power (baron zachareth's deck) is a good "**** you Marshall" ability, as it allows you to draw 2 overlord cards for one threat. Who cares if she's putting one on top of your deck each turn when you're drawing 3 a turn.

Keep in mind that if she's maxed out on fatigue, she can't use by the book even with zealous fire, since she needs to have stamina available to activate by the book and they'd resolve at the same time (she can't choose to activate by the book after zealous fire resolves), so if you can target her stamina it helps a ton.

I've found that the marshal, especially Alys Raine is rather stamina hungry. A lot of monsters can punish that fairly well and there are cards that can punish that if you time things right. Using changelings can reduce her effectiveness a fair amount as a lot of her abilities require knowledge tests, and their surge for wither really nukes her ability to do anything at all (wither doesn't even need to do damage, as long as the attack hits and you roll a surge). Anything that targets awareness is potent. Frankly, I think the most obnoxious marshal ability is "I am the law".

I wouldn't go so far as to call the Marshal overpowered. It is strong, but frankly until now most warrior classes have sucked. The Marshal suffers the same weakness as the Skirmisher: lot of strong abilities but not enough fatigue to really keep them going.

It's not too hard to get the her Stanima up especially if you team her up with a Bard. I played the Skirmisher alongside the Bard and it was a combination that requires a lot of concentration to conquer.

If you can (and as Whitewing suggested), I would switch to Basic II and befuddle your way out. I do not know what the other hero combinations are, but you don't want to invest the Threat expenditure and set monster selections to simply stop one hero's combo, when the other three heroes most likely have own strategies that must be countered.

We haven't played the Marshall yet, thanks for the heads up. What sucks about this situation is a lot of nice ways to sap the Stamina out of a hero to stop the cheese actually involve Overlord cards!

Keep in mind that if she's maxed out on fatigue, she can't use by the book even with zealous fire, since she needs to have stamina available to activate by the book and they'd resolve at the same time (she can't choose to activate by the book after zealous fire resolves), so if you can target her stamina it helps a ton.

I've found that the marshal, especially Alys Raine is rather stamina hungry. A lot of monsters can punish that fairly well and there are cards that can punish that if you time things right. Using changelings can reduce her effectiveness a fair amount as a lot of her abilities require knowledge tests, and their surge for wither really nukes her ability to do anything at all (wither doesn't even need to do damage, as long as the attack hits and you roll a surge). Anything that targets awareness is potent. Frankly, I think the most obnoxious marshal ability is "I am the law".

I wouldn't go so far as to call the Marshal overpowered. It is strong, but frankly until now most warrior classes have sucked. The Marshal suffers the same weakness as the Skirmisher: lot of strong abilities but not enough fatigue to really keep them going.

It's not too hard to get the her Stanima up especially if you team her up with a Bard. I played the Skirmisher alongside the Bard and it was a combination that requires a lot of concentration to conquer.

If you can (and as Whitewing suggested), I would switch to Basic II and befuddle your way out. I do not know what the other hero combinations are, but you don't want to invest the Threat expenditure and set monster selections to simply stop one hero's combo, when the other three heroes most likely have own strategies that must be countered.

We haven't played the Marshall yet, thanks for the heads up. What sucks about this situation is a lot of nice ways to sap the Stamina out of a hero to stop the cheese actually involve Overlord cards!

There are a lot of monsters that can do it too. This particular combo isn't too annoying, since you frequently want to stockpile cards in encounter 1 and employ them en masse in encounter 2 anyway.

I find the other Marshall abilities more frustrating than these two. Either way, I don't think it's imbalanced, I've played against a Marshall, Bard, Treasure Hunter and Runemaster group and didn't have much trouble shutting them down.

Dude... not to be harsh, but you presented your "overpowered hero strategy," and it seems pretty trivial to beat just by... changing up your play style. There are TONS of hero combos that require the Overlord to adapt or lose. This particular ability combo forecloses on your ability to play one card, every turn, like a robot. (Unless you use one of the hundreds of tricks in the OL's bag to eat up the heroes' stamina first.)

My apologies. I'm being a bit ruder than I should be - I just get set off when people say "X is OP" when X actually isn't OP at all, it just forces the OL/Hero to change out of their easy, simple strategy to something more complex. Learning and understanding how to do that - to me - is the essence of what a strategy game is all about! So don't get upset at this combo; enjoy it, because it's making you into a better overlord. Also, when people actually DO try to talk about a hero/class/combo that IS overpowered, it gets lost in the noise.

Dude... not to be harsh, but you presented your "overpowered hero strategy," and it seems pretty trivial to beat just by... changing up your play style. There are TONS of hero combos that require the Overlord to adapt or lose. This particular ability combo forecloses on your ability to play one card, every turn, like a robot. (Unless you use one of the hundreds of tricks in the OL's bag to eat up the heroes' stamina first.)

My apologies. I'm being a bit ruder than I should be - I just get set off when people say "X is OP" when X actually isn't OP at all, it just forces the OL/Hero to change out of their easy, simple strategy to something more complex. Learning and understanding how to do that - to me - is the essence of what a strategy game is all about! So don't get upset at this combo; enjoy it, because it's making you into a better overlord. Also, when people actually DO try to talk about a hero/class/combo that IS overpowered, it gets lost in the noise.

I imagine that is, because everyone is agreeing silently instead of telling the OP why he is wrong. Is there anything really broken outside of Nanok and (Logan) Treasurehunter I should avoid to keep games interesting?

Actually, I don't think Nanok is nearly as powerful as he initially seems. I'm playing him in a campaign now, and moving into act 2 I'm having some serious questions about his survivability. We'll see though.

Fun exercise! My shortlist of things I think are OP in this game -

1. Treasure hunter. Not just Logan, although add Logan for bonus silliness. One of the central strategic tensions in this game is whether the heroes spend the resources (actions, health, stamina, time) to get out-of-the-way search tokens in the game. Treasure Hunter just busts that tension entirely, which makes for less fun games. On top of that the heroes get MUCH more money, which again unbalances things in their favor. I will never again play in a group with a Treasure Hunter, as a hero or OL, unless I'm the OL and the heroes are newbies and need something to balance the scales.

2. Bard - Bard's basic skill lets him stand up all (nearby) heroes for free every turn. Nothing else about the bard is particularly overpowered, but the basic skill literally breaks the game in half, and makes "beat up the heroes" a nonviable strategy for the overlord. The only tweak needed is one to not let that skill stand up heroes, but without a tweak that skill is vastly OP.

3. Aurim (!?!) - As I'm playing him in a campaign, I'm starting to think of him as overpowered. I know he doesn't look it, at all. But if you assume that the secret room and treasure chest are each worth just 65 gold on average, he's going to add 560 gold to the players' coffers over the course of the game, or 640 with rumor quests. That's a huge amount. On top of that his base ability - while it requires some setup - can be incredibly powerful. (The combo of the two becomes definitely OP if you've ALSO got a treasure hunter, and thus can setup his Heroic Feat to get whatever you want.) I could easily be wrong about this one, just like Nanok - but I'm definitely keeping an eye on him.

4. Elder Mok - After two nerfs my group thought he would be okay to play. Nuh uh. He is game-breakingly ridiculous. His ability basically reads "If you are a good player, heal all his stamina every round." My OWN TEAM got sick of me appending "Oh! And, I think I'll take a sweat back!" to everything that went on in the game. Just because he can ONLY have one of (near infinite health) or (infinite stamina) at a time doesn't make him fair. Or fun. For anyone.

0, 5, and all other numbers everywhere - Kobolds. I've written a lot about how much I love these little buggers before - they're the best monster in the game by such an enormous margin that there is literally only one situation I can think of where I'd choose any monster instead of them. (Sorcerers, for their "train" summon power in a scenario where you need to move monsters off the board.) That's the definition of overpowered, so (very, very) reluctantly, my group has banned them.

Actually, I don't think Nanok is nearly as powerful as he initially seems. I'm playing him in a campaign now, and moving into act 2 I'm having some serious questions about his survivability. We'll see though.

Fun exercise! My shortlist of things I think are OP in this game -

1. Treasure hunter. Not just Logan, although add Logan for bonus silliness. One of the central strategic tensions in this game is whether the heroes spend the resources (actions, health, stamina, time) to get out-of-the-way search tokens in the game. Treasure Hunter just busts that tension entirely, which makes for less fun games. On top of that the heroes get MUCH more money, which again unbalances things in their favor. I will never again play in a group with a Treasure Hunter, as a hero or OL, unless I'm the OL and the heroes are newbies and need something to balance the scales.

2. Bard - Bard's basic skill lets him stand up all (nearby) heroes for free every turn. Nothing else about the bard is particularly overpowered, but the basic skill literally breaks the game in half, and makes "beat up the heroes" a nonviable strategy for the overlord. The only tweak needed is one to not let that skill stand up heroes, but without a tweak that skill is vastly OP.

3. Aurim (!?!) - As I'm playing him in a campaign, I'm starting to think of him as overpowered. I know he doesn't look it, at all. But if you assume that the secret room and treasure chest are each worth just 65 gold on average, he's going to add 560 gold to the players' coffers over the course of the game, or 640 with rumor quests. That's a huge amount. On top of that his base ability - while it requires some setup - can be incredibly powerful. (The combo of the two becomes definitely OP if you've ALSO got a treasure hunter, and thus can setup his Heroic Feat to get whatever you want.) I could easily be wrong about this one, just like Nanok - but I'm definitely keeping an eye on him.

4. Elder Mok - After two nerfs my group thought he would be okay to play. Nuh uh. He is game-breakingly ridiculous. His ability basically reads "If you are a good player, heal all his stamina every round." My OWN TEAM got sick of me appending "Oh! And, I think I'll take a sweat back!" to everything that went on in the game. Just because he can ONLY have one of (near infinite health) or (infinite stamina) at a time doesn't make him fair. Or fun. For anyone.

0, 5, and all other numbers everywhere - Kobolds. I've written a lot about how much I love these little buggers before - they're the best monster in the game by such an enormous margin that there is literally only one situation I can think of where I'd choose any monster instead of them. (Sorcerers, for their "train" summon power in a scenario where you need to move monsters off the board.) That's the definition of overpowered, so (very, very) reluctantly, my group has banned them.

Thx for your list

The argument on Bard is that each hero only comes back with one HP, so they can be easily killed the next turn (however I see how that's a bad argument in ActII), however I think it's boring to stand up a hero via heal abilities in general, so I guess I will pick him regardless (because I don't do this)

Yeah I forgot Elder Mok, because it's so obvious. What a pity his artwork looks kind of cool...

Never looked at Aurim, but yeah I guess you are right (this should at least take an action lol, or better read search one token on the map).

On second thought I think your numbers are a bit off and you probably get at most an avarage of 80 gold/quest if it has 2 encounters and without rumors, meaning an additional 440 gold before the finale, which still is over 100 gold/hero at most, could go down however if you draw a nothing card or play quests with only one encounter.

While Kobolds seem to be the best choice in many cases I can see a few instances, where they are not optimal. Moreover I always thought they are very powerfull, but not overpowerd or unfair in most cases (except in these long corridors), but maybe I'm wrong and you can explain what makes them unfair in your pov, because even if they are the best monsters, this doesn't automatically make them unfair.

I don't consider the treasure hunter to be OP, and I've had little difficulty shutting him down. I always employ basic deck 2 when the treasure hunter is in play. Any time he's not with the whole group and grabs a treasure (frequently), I'll drop a mimic card and have the reaver skirmish him, then run on my next turn.

Sometimes when the treasure hunter is chosen I employ Raythen's plot deck which really frustrates their choices. Employing blitz strategies and high pressure strategies as overlord can force them to abandon treasure on the map as well if they don't want you to just win.

The bard ability is trivial to deal with: they all come back with 1 hp and will drop again immediately. All those overlord cards you keep getting. Plus, you can just drop the bard, and they all have to be knocked out within 3 spaces of the bard for this to matter. Overall it's not hard to deal with. Simply separating the bard from the group solves the problem, and it's not like knocking out the heroes is essential to victory.

I don't use monsters or heroes from the conversion kit for a reason, balance seems poor on them. I'll wait for them to be updated in the new kits.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on what's OP or not. However, if you're shutting the TH down with the strategies you're describing I would argue that you are probably facing off against heroes of much lower skill than your own, and your opinion is skewed. While playing the treasure hunter, Mimic doesn't bother me at all. The first skill every smart Treasure Hunter buys will allow them to kill the mimic without spending an action. Not saying Mimic isn't irritating, just that it's hardly a counter, especially considering that there is only one Mimic in the deck. Raythen might be a counter, but he's even stronger against groups WITHOUT a treasure hunter - and you're spending your Lieutenant choice PLUS your tokens in order to counter one part of one hero player's strategy.

Honestly, between this and your response about the Bard, Whitewing, I think you're missing my points entirely. Let's say I'm the heroes, you're the overlord. Oh, all my guys are at 1 HP? Who cares, because getting knocked down costs me nothing. You get to draw tons of cards? That's terrible, except that most of your cards help you knock me down, and GETTING KNOCKED DOWN COSTS ME NOTHING. All my guys have to be near the bard? Sure, that sounds fine - that's an actual hinderance to the heroes - but considering the BENEFIT is "having your whole party knocked down only costs you two actions, instead of eight" I might argue that it's not as big a problem as you might think.

You should try playing against good heroes in this situation. You're suggesting things that are smart, and make sense, but it's the subtleties that make both of these things vastly overpowered, and you don't really get those until you've played in those situations. That's what you're missing.

I don't consider the treasure hunter to be OP, and I've had little difficulty shutting him down. I always employ basic deck 2 when the treasure hunter is in play. Any time he's not with the whole group and grabs a treasure (frequently), I'll drop a mimic card and have the reaver skirmish him, then run on my next turn.

Sometimes when the treasure hunter is chosen I employ Raythen's plot deck which really frustrates their choices. Employing blitz strategies and high pressure strategies as overlord can force them to abandon treasure on the map as well if they don't want you to just win.

The bard ability is trivial to deal with: they all come back with 1 hp and will drop again immediately. All those overlord cards you keep getting. Plus, you can just drop the bard, and they all have to be knocked out within 3 spaces of the bard for this to matter. Overall it's not hard to deal with. Simply separating the bard from the group solves the problem, and it's not like knocking out the heroes is essential to victory.

I don't use monsters or heroes from the conversion kit for a reason, balance seems poor on them. I'll wait for them to be updated in the new kits.

I don't know if that really is a valid criterium. Elder Mok already came out in those kits and while he is updated he is still overpowered. Monsters are all largely unchanged so far, they all got better if anything.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "after two nerfs" - Mok got nerfed in errata, then nerfed again in the hero and monster set version, and he's still insanely overpowered. We're using the published 2nd edition version, not the conversion kit version.

If I remember correctly, there's a guy whose whole power is "regain 1 stamina per round." Mok can do that five times - and can choose HP - and has good stats and a very strong heroic feat to boot. He's insane.

@ amoshias

about the Kobolds.

Can you explain in a few words why you think they are unfair? I got that you think they are THE best monster group in any situation (which I find debatable, but whatever). However just being the best monster group makes them very powerfull without a doubt, but that doesn't automatically mean they are unfair. I can see how they are cheep and unfair in small corridors, but that is very situational imo.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on what's OP or not. However, if you're shutting the TH down with the strategies you're describing I would argue that you are probably facing off against heroes of much lower skill than your own, and your opinion is skewed. While playing the treasure hunter, Mimic doesn't bother me at all. The first skill every smart Treasure Hunter buys will allow them to kill the mimic without spending an action. Not saying Mimic isn't irritating, just that it's hardly a counter, especially considering that there is only one Mimic in the deck. Raythen might be a counter, but he's even stronger against groups WITHOUT a treasure hunter - and you're spending your Lieutenant choice PLUS your tokens in order to counter one part of one hero player's strategy.

Honestly, between this and your response about the Bard, Whitewing, I think you're missing my points entirely. Let's say I'm the heroes, you're the overlord. Oh, all my guys are at 1 HP? Who cares, because getting knocked down costs me nothing. You get to draw tons of cards? That's terrible, except that most of your cards help you knock me down, and GETTING KNOCKED DOWN COSTS ME NOTHING. All my guys have to be near the bard? Sure, that sounds fine - that's an actual hinderance to the heroes - but considering the BENEFIT is "having your whole party knocked down only costs you two actions, instead of eight" I might argue that it's not as big a problem as you might think.

You should try playing against good heroes in this situation. You're suggesting things that are smart, and make sense, but it's the subtleties that make both of these things vastly overpowered, and you don't really get those until you've played in those situations. That's what you're missing.

Or perhaps you aren't as good as your heroes are. Getting knocked down costs you nothing except giving the overlord cards, threat, and forcing your entire group to stay hilariously clumped while I complete my objectives. Stop caring about knocking heroes down, it's not a very smart or effective way to play unless they're all obscenely offensive and disregard their defense. The bard's healing ability is substantially lower than other healers in exchange for more fatigue regeneration and a little range on the heals. That's not particularly strong or troublesome. The mimic card isn't to kill the freaking treasure hunter, it's to make the treasure run away and deprive him of a treasure, or make him waste additional turns chasing it down.

I, for one, am glad the Marshal doesn't discard cards with this skill. It's better I have to continually draw "Frenzy" than throw my "Frenzy" cards away.

We banned the mapstone... waaaaayyy too OP...

OK I'm kidding of course, but only about the second part of that.

Really pleased with how much discussion this thread has stirred up, even if much of it has significantly diverged from my original post

To the people who did comment on the Marshal though, I appreciate it. I still believe that "By the Book" should be changed, however. Would limiting it to non-basic cards ruin the skill?

Part of the fun of the Overlord is scheming and coming up with cool ways to combo your Overlord cards. The Marshal on the field means every card could always be countered with very little risk. Danger Sense has significant cost in the most precious hero currency, actions. By the Book does not. Danger Sense randomly targets, and cannot draw-lock the Overlord. By the Book can. Danger Sense only functions as a preventative measure. By the Book can react to any situation.

To make an analogy, it would be kinda like the Overlord having a 2xp card that remains in play for the entire quest that says, "Once per round if a hero exhausts a card to perform a skill that doesn't require an action, the Overlord may exhaust this Overlord card to roll a Black and Grey die. On a result of 4 or less, the hero skill is cancelled. Any stamina cost is still payed and the card remains exhausted. On a result higher than 4, the Overlord card does not refresh on the Overlord's next turn". Yes, the heroes can still 'bait' the overlord into using it on one skill to ensure they can perform another, but that isn't fun. Its frustrating. It ruins many classes and strategies without any real cost to the Overlord. Is the analogy flawed?

However, I also agree that "I Am the Law" is vastly superior to "Counter Attack". It isn't fair to the berserker and seems a clear indication of power creep.

The more I play Descent, the more I think it would benefit from a compendium of "nerfs/buffs" that the community could put together. Perhaps a searchable database of proposed changes to specific cards/abilities/monsters/etc in the interest of promoting game balance and diversity. Of course, everyone has different opinions on what needs nerfing or not, so it would be hard to get any kind of consensus, but that isn't needed. It could still be a great resource. People could cherry pick the changes they like and propose them to their groups. Perhaps groups of changes people like could turn into "Mod Packs".

For example, does anyone really disagree that Rune Plate is ridiculously overpowered? Its still a fantastic item if it was brown die to start, and becomes a grey die with a rune equipped. I am actually playing the game with that house rule in place.

Here are a few other house rules I play with for those interested. I personally think they are reasonable, although I'd like to hear dissenting opinions of course.

1) Search cards acquired from Search tokens during a Rumor quest are not worth any gold at the end of the quest. Secret Rooms still award item cards and search cards that are worth gold, however.

2) No Shopping Phase is performed at the end of a rumor quest.

3) The "Nothing" search card remains in the deck, even with the secret passage in play.

4) If the Treasure Chest is looted it is removed from the Search Deck. It is re-added in Act II until looted again. It is also added back in during Rumors. That means max of 2 treasure chests per act, save rumors.

The above make rumors actually viable for the OL to play, and still enticing enough for heroes to try for too. Normal rumor rules make a smart OL never touch them with a ten foot pole and feel severely undermined if they are forced to play a rumor card. That sucks, since the small-box content is really fun!

Some of these weaken the Treasure Hunter too. Its still an amazing class, but at least the other Scouts have a chance of being played now that treasure amassing isn't THAT easy.

5) When Aurim uses his heroic feat, a search token must be chosen and removed from the board. Aurim is considered to have performed a search action for purposes of quest rules. If the quest uses the unique search token and it is revealed, it is reshuffled amongst the remaining search tokens on the map and another search token is removed in its stead.

A character should not be able to create gold out of nothing. it ruins game balance. Even with this change I still consider Aurim a top-notch healer.

6) Nanok now has a gray defense die. A free surge every attack is insane and he has top-notch stats. Yes he doesn't get armor, however he can still use shields and defensive weapons if he wants to be less squishy.

7) Elder Mok's hero ability is only usable once per round (not once per turn). Even with this big nerf he's still outstanding and a dominant choice.

8) During the travel phase, if a travel card presents the heroes an opportunity to acquire an item from the item deck or free search cards, that travel card is then returned to the game box for the rest of the campaign after resolution. The overlord doesn't get travel cards which give him permanent campaign-long bonuses, but lucky heroes can get them over and over during the travel phase. Not cool.

9) Prayer of Peace entirely changed. It now reads, "Exhaust this card when a monster enters a space adjacent to you. That monster cannot perform any attacks for the rest of the round." Just take a look at the first Manor of Ravens quest in the quest book to understand how this one skill can ruin encounters as it is now. Skarn becomes permanently locked down in the Rookery and the OL has no means to win the encounter, let alone harm the heroes.

I actually think this change works better thematically too, as it requires an aggressive move on the part of the monster. Getting in their face and then praying them into passivity just seems odd. It also opens up new strategic options for this card too, as it allows a Disciple to protect allies in small corridors by themself, with key monsters running past them getting pacified. What it doesn't allow is parking in front of a melee monster in a confined space and forever blocking them from doing anything.

Others changes I'm thinking of adding include:

10) Counter Attack works with Reach weapons. Its silly that it doesn't. Whirlwind with Reach would probably be OP, however.

11) I Am the Law costs 1 stamina to exhaust.

I might list more later, but I think I've conveyed the general idea

With respect to Bard healing.. I'm actually okay with this one myself. If the heroes want to stand up in such a fragile state only to get knocked down again like bowling pins and give me threat tokens, then I'm okay with this. They are also fully fatigued, so their options are limited. Furthermore, if you absolutely cannot have this happen, just knock the bard down first.

Descent is a wonderfully entertaining game when things are competitive and many options are viable, but there are things that can break the very delicate balance, particularly if you're playing against resourceful opponents. FFG doesn't release errata very often, so I think we should take the initiative here.

Really pleased with how much discussion this thread has stirred up, even if much of it has significantly diverged from my original post

To the people who did comment on the Marshal though, I appreciate it. I still believe that "By the Book" should be changed, however. Would limiting it to non-basic cards ruin the skill?

Part of the fun of the Overlord is scheming and coming up with cool ways to combo your Overlord cards. The Marshal on the field means every card could always be countered with very little risk. Danger Sense has significant cost in the most precious hero currency, actions. By the Book does not. Danger Sense randomly targets, and cannot draw-lock the Overlord. By the Book can. Danger Sense only functions as a preventative measure. By the Book can react to any situation.

To make an analogy, it would be kinda like the Overlord having a 2xp card that remains in play for the entire quest that says, "Once per round if a hero exhausts a card to perform a skill that doesn't require an action, the Overlord may exhaust this Overlord card to roll a Black and Grey die. On a result of 4 or less, the hero skill is cancelled. Any stamina cost is still payed and the card remains exhausted. On a result higher than 4, the Overlord card does not refresh on the Overlord's next turn". Yes, the heroes can still 'bait' the overlord into using it on one skill to ensure they can perform another, but that isn't fun. Its frustrating. It ruins many classes and strategies without any real cost to the Overlord. Is the analogy flawed?

However, I also agree that "I Am the Law" is vastly superior to "Counter Attack". It isn't fair to the berserker and seems a clear indication of power creep.

The more I play Descent, the more I think it would benefit from a compendium of "nerfs/buffs" that the community could put together. Perhaps a searchable database of proposed changes to specific cards/abilities/monsters/etc in the interest of promoting game balance and diversity. Of course, everyone has different opinions on what needs nerfing or not, so it would be hard to get any kind of consensus, but that isn't needed. It could still be a great resource. People could cherry pick the changes they like and propose them to their groups. Perhaps groups of changes people like could turn into "Mod Packs".

For example, does anyone really disagree that Rune Plate is ridiculously overpowered? Its still a fantastic item if it was brown die to start, and becomes a grey die with a rune equipped. I am actually playing the game with that house rule in place.

Here are a few other house rules I play with for those interested. I personally think they are reasonable, although I'd like to hear dissenting opinions of course.

1) Search cards acquired from Search tokens during a Rumor quest are not worth any gold at the end of the quest. Secret Rooms still award item cards and search cards that are worth gold, however.

2) No Shopping Phase is performed at the end of a rumor quest.

3) The "Nothing" search card remains in the deck, even with the secret passage in play.

4) If the Treasure Chest is looted it is removed from the Search Deck. It is re-added in Act II until looted again. It is also added back in during Rumors. That means max of 2 treasure chests per act, save rumors.

The above make rumors actually viable for the OL to play, and still enticing enough for heroes to try for too. Normal rumor rules make a smart OL never touch them with a ten foot pole and feel severely undermined if they are forced to play a rumor card. That sucks, since the small-box content is really fun!

Some of these weaken the Treasure Hunter too. Its still an amazing class, but at least the other Scouts have a chance of being played now that treasure amassing isn't THAT easy.

5) When Aurim uses his heroic feat, a search token must be chosen and removed from the board. Aurim is considered to have performed a search action for purposes of quest rules. If the quest uses the unique search token and it is revealed, it is reshuffled amongst the remaining search tokens on the map and another search token is removed in its stead.

A character should not be able to create gold out of nothing. it ruins game balance. Even with this change I still consider Aurim a top-notch healer.

6) Nanok now has a gray defense die. A free surge every attack is insane and he has top-notch stats. Yes he doesn't get armor, however he can still use shields and defensive weapons if he wants to be less squishy.

7) Elder Mok's hero ability is only usable once per round (not once per turn). Even with this big nerf he's still outstanding and a dominant choice.

8) During the travel phase, if a travel card presents the heroes an opportunity to acquire an item from the item deck or free search cards, that travel card is then returned to the game box for the rest of the campaign after resolution. The overlord doesn't get travel cards which give him permanent campaign-long bonuses, but lucky heroes can get them over and over during the travel phase. Not cool.

9) Prayer of Peace entirely changed. It now reads, "Exhaust this card when a monster enters a space adjacent to you. That monster cannot perform any attacks for the rest of the round." Just take a look at the first Manor of Ravens quest in the quest book to understand how this one skill can ruin encounters as it is now. Skarn becomes permanently locked down in the Rookery and the OL has no means to win the encounter, let alone harm the heroes.

I actually think this change works better thematically too, as it requires an aggressive move on the part of the monster. Getting in their face and then praying them into passivity just seems odd. It also opens up new strategic options for this card too, as it allows a Disciple to protect allies in small corridors by themself, with key monsters running past them getting pacified. What it doesn't allow is parking in front of a melee monster in a confined space and forever blocking them from doing anything.

Others changes I'm thinking of adding include:

10) Counter Attack works with Reach weapons. Its silly that it doesn't. Whirlwind with Reach would probably be OP, however.

11) I Am the Law costs 1 stamina to exhaust.

I might list more later, but I think I've conveyed the general idea

With respect to Bard healing.. I'm actually okay with this one myself. If the heroes want to stand up in such a fragile state only to get knocked down again like bowling pins and give me threat tokens, then I'm okay with this. They are also fully fatigued, so their options are limited. Furthermore, if you absolutely cannot have this happen, just knock the bard down first.

Descent is a wonderfully entertaining game when things are competitive and many options are viable, but there are things that can break the very delicate balance, particularly if you're playing against resourceful opponents. FFG doesn't release errata very often, so I think we should take the initiative here.

It's not power creep, the berserker is actually just a weak class and it always has been. The Knight from the base game is still an exceptional warrior class, even compared with the Marshall.

I still disagree By the Book needs changing at all. There are a variety of counters and responses at your disposal (which we've discussed), and it's one of the few counters the heroes have to your overlord cards. Consider that by choosing the Marshall and taking that particular ability, that player has given up a variety of alternatives for it. I mostly play overlord, and have had little trouble dealing with it.

I actually disagree that Rune Plate is overpowered. Armoring the mage isn't particularly helpful most of the time, and by act 2 the extra black die doesn't make that much of a difference anyway. Note that in Descent, the best overlord strategies are typically ones that do not revolve around knocking down the heroes, but rather ones that punish the heroes' specific weaknesses and rush map objectives. Of course it's great to punish the heroes and knock 'em out when they screw up, and it's good to pressure and harm them to force them to play more safely and slower (giving you more time to secure your objectives), but straight up getting the kill doesn't actually matter most of the time. I also find it's not usually that hard: even with rune plate there are a variety of monsters in act 1 that can obliterate mages (like volucrux reavers with reliable piercing 2, or other monsters that don't target heroes hit points like howling barghests or burrowing plague worms).

I've played this game with a variety of players and different groups as overlord, and have hosted the game multiple times at local gaming and hobby stores. I've got a regular who's a world champion calibur chess player who really takes his time and analyzes things, and I usually still wind up winning in the end. I don't think the heroes need to be nerfed.

1. Unnecessary, since it's entirely the overlord's choice to play rumor quests (unless the travel card which forces one shows up, which should have consequences). The overlord shouldn't play the card unless he believes he has an advantage and can win it reliably without allowing the heroes too much time to gather treasure, or the reward is significant enough that letting the heroes get some treasure is acceptable. I admit I sometimes never play one during a campaign due to not believing I'm ahead enough to do so, but other times I have no problem slapping 2 of them down in a row and taking some nice relics. The trick is to determine when you are likely to win the rumor quests and evaluate risk/reward of the amount of treasure they are likely to get in the time allotted, and whether the rewards are worth it. Some of the extra overlord cards are insanely useful.

2. See above.

3. This is just silly. The people who developed the game did this for a very specific reason, there's no reason to nerf hero treasure further. If you're struggling as the overlord, you're likely making some poor choices here and there. I believe balance is very close to 50/50 as it is.

4. Ridiculous overnerf, and you're limiting one of the most fun things for the heroes. Good shuffling should be enough to deal with this, the probability is that it won't show up more than half the time in quests anyway.

5. You should simply just not allow the use of heroes or monsters from the conversion kit period: the balance in it is poor at best. There's a reason most of the repints have had significant changes.

6. See above.

7. I don't consider Elder Mok to be that broken as some people here do (the reprint that is). In general, I find that forcing heroes to stay together weakens their ability to achieve the objectives considerably. Most heroes don't have the ability to consistently regen hit points or stamina each turn without surrendering actions to do so, and all of the healer classes are rather limited in what they can do in any given turn with their stamina. If the group does have the ability to consistently regen hit points or stamina, then there are other sacrifices they have made to get that. There are many ways to punish heroes being clumped up, and if they aren't clumped up, Elder Mok loses most of his oomph. Also, his might and awareness are poor. Last time I played against Elder Mok was just last week, and black venom (bandits from Manor of Ravens, great monsters btw if treasure is a concern for you) really shut him down hard. Wasn't at all difficult to hit him with doom and then pummel him into oblivion with doom on him.

8. This shouldn't be an issue anyway, just shuffle the deck once at the start of the game, and put drawn travel cards into a discard pile. Don't shuffle the deck again until you run out of travel cards (which you shouldn't).

9. If you know the heroes have a skill that makes winning a specific quest very likely for them, then it's your job as overlord to avoid playing that quest. All you have to do is win the previous quest and choose a different one. Hell, the quest you are complaining about is a rumor quest, which is entirely your choice whether to play it or not because the heroes can't play it until you play the card. And if, and I mean if, the heroes manage the unlikely scenario of drawing the travel card that forces you to play a rumor quest and it's the only one you have in your hand, and they have Prayer of Peace, then I would say that the heroes deserve an advantage. And even then, that quest isn't is a sure win for them because the second part you left out is that skarn gets knocked out of the building when defeated, heals a bunch, and can then go on to escape still, winning you the quest. The only thing you forfeit in this scenario is the overlord card, it's still playable, especially with a saved dash card, proper positioning of the bandits and wraiths, etc. This doesn't need changing, and I consider prayer of peace one of the weaker options for the disciple early on in the game. I'd much rather have Cleansing Touch, Divine Fury, or Time of Need. Considering that it requires 2 XP, you could simply pre-empt it by playing this quest before they have 2 XP, right after the introduction if you won that.

10. Berserker is a little underpowered, but changing it because you don't like the thematics is a bad reason. I don't have a major problem with this change, but it's not going to help make the berserker any more playable when you've got the Knight available (I believe a properly played Knight is still better than the Marshall, too much freaking mobility and support).

11. I don't believe this is necessary, there's plenty of counter play available for the Marshall as it is, and the main one is that the Marshall is already stamina heavy. It exhausts after one use, and you can simply not attack the Marshall. Further, the obvious solution is ranged attackers, as being more than 2 squares away shuts this down entirely.

It should be fairly telling that for the most part, your changes are all directed at nerfing the heroes.

Also, Prayer of peace requires 2 stamina and an action to activate. It may win you a few battles, but if the disciple gets to use it all the time, regularly, the OL is doing something wrong.

Also, Prayer of peace requires 2 stamina and an action to activate. It may win you a few battles, but if the disciple gets to use it all the time, regularly, the OL is doing something wrong.

Yup. To comment on what whitewing said earlier, too. The more I think about it, the more I think basic 2 is a great way to punish the Marshal. There are 2 "befuddle" cards, but also many of the other cards are great at getting the heroes to suffer extra fatigue. Even "Mental Error" (which Alys is likely to pass) is a "Alys suffers 1 fatigue" card. If shee happens to fail, the attack gains +2 instead and a surge. She's likely to pass one of the blinding speed tests, but not both. I'm also not really bothered by "By the Book," since it's only once per turn. It's slightly more annoying than Mok's "once per map, look at the OL's whole hand and pick a card to throw away." I'm currently dealing with a Mok who is also holding the Shadow Plotter in the Nerekhall campaign. He gets to look at my hand another time to see if it's worth it to throw one away.

@ whitewing

I don't know why you keep discouraging using monsters from the conversion kit. All the monsters that are currently reprinted in the hero&monster collections weren't changed at all. Only the already strong wizzards became even stronger.

How is armoring the mage not important? If the OL can knock out the mage with 1 or 2 attacks (in ActII) everytime it is not a bad startegy