6 minutes ago, Sturn said:

I liked seeing the Death Troopers with Thrawn.

But, what should we infer by this? Rogue One suggests they are ISB or special project troops. We don't see them with Vader, but we see them with a Grand Admiral. I can't make sense (for game purposes) of their official Imperial use or branch.

According to the Databank , they're bodyguards and enforcers. They must be set aside for the upper echelon of the Empire/Imperial Military (especially very active, mobile members like Krennic and Thrawn). Vader doesn't use them, because why would he? He doesn't need bodyguards, and he does his own enforcement work.

12 minutes ago, Sturn said:

I liked seeing the Death Troopers with Thrawn.

But, what should we infer by this? Rogue One suggests they are ISB or special project troops. We don't see them with Vader, but we see them with a Grand Admiral. I can't make sense (for game purposes) of their official Imperial use or branch.

There's no sense to make... not with ranks, not with uniforms, not with troop types. It all comes down to whatever "looks cool" or "sounds cool" in the moment, in the mind of the creative staff working on whatever it is.

The only source I've ever seen try to rationalize Imperial organization was the WEG d6 game.

50 minutes ago, abookfulblockhead said:

Konstantine was definitely not Thrawn's fault. The admiral disobeyed a direct order, and was openly insubordinate when Thrawn ordered him to return to position.

Plus, Konstantine is not part if Thrawn's task force. The troops with the Chimera emblem all seem well-trained and faultlessly loyal. Plus, they've got the audio logs. Konstantine's last words might as well have been "Leeeeeroooooooy Jeeeeenkiiiiiins!"

I don't remember Thrawn doing anything to stop him, though.

7 hours ago, Kallabecca said:

He was neutral to the end. He targeted everyone, not just the Imperials. He was pissed because this crap came to his world and now he was exposed and had to get involved.

Yeah I get that but his neutrality seemed really petty when it came to it. He just repeated the same line angrily, that he's the one in the middle, he is the Bendu, like that really even means something. All it seemed to mean was that he wasn't willing to choose a side so when he was backed into a corner, he acted like a wild animal and attacked everything.

All his supposed wisdom and knowledge was bologna when it came to putting it into practice.

What a waste of what could have been an interesting character. He had no new knowledge about the Force, he wasn't willing to help good people live but he was certainly willing to kill anyone who made him angry.

5 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

All his supposed wisdom and knowledge was bologna when it came to putting it into practice.

I'm wondering if that wasn't the point. I think it was in Rebels Recon that someone mentions "he just wants to sleep".

29 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:

According to the Databank , they're bodyguards and enforcers. They must be set aside for the upper echelon of the Empire/Imperial Military (especially very active, mobile members like Krennic and Thrawn).

Well, you're stretching what it says a bit. It first says they are elite soldiers of Imperial Intelligence. Then it says they are used by Krennic as his bodyguards and enforcers. So, yes it could be what you are saying - enforcers and bodyguards for high ranks loaned out to any branch. But, the Databank only says what branch they are/were from (Imperial Intelligence) then says for Krennic they were enforcers and bodyguards.

24 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Yeah I get that but his neutrality seemed really petty when it came to it. He just repeated the same line angrily, that he's the one in the middle, he is the Bendu, like that really even means something. All it seemed to mean was that he wasn't willing to choose a side so when he was backed into a corner, he acted like a wild animal and attacked everything.

All his supposed wisdom and knowledge was bologna when it came to putting it into practice.

What a waste of what could have been an interesting character. He had no new knowledge about the Force, he wasn't willing to help good people live but he was certainly willing to kill anyone who made him angry.

Whenever they introduce a character like Bendu, they're hogtied in what they can do with that character.

The notion that there can be "balance" in the Force runs counter to the Light/Dark Jedi/Sith orthodoxy that's all too often been presented as as objective fact rather than the limited views of two competing ancient traditions, by those with control over the "canon".

So "balance" ends up being either "a wiser version of Jedi teachings" or "a cover for dark-side stuff" or "Neutral Stupid alignment".

Just now, MaxKilljoy said:

Whenever they introduce a character like Bendu, they're hogtied in what they can do with that character.

The notion that there can be "balance" in the Force runs counter to the Light/Dark Jedi/Sith orthodoxy that's all too often been presented as as objective fact rather than the limited views of two competing ancient traditions, by those with control over the "canon".

So "balance" ends up being either "a wiser version of Jedi teachings" or "a cover for dark-side stuff" or "Neutral Stupid alignment".

Definitely seemed like neutral stupid, bordering on dark side when he finally acted. Previously in the season his talk of balance was less of a Force philosophy and more of an emotional balance by way of not getting hung up on negative emotions, which still runs counter to his actions in Zero Hour.

It's disappointing really. They can bring in characters to canon and kill off canon characters. They can have the main characters meet Vader and Obi-Wan and do some important things for the Rebellion. Then they introduce a character who's entire purpose was to be some sort of Force mentor who turns out to be a massive hypocrite and a murderous, selfish, sad rain cloud that still appatently gets to become one with the Force when he dies, despite having just killed some of the "good guys" along with the "bad guys", indescriminately attacking out of anger.

I'm just happy Ezra remembered to bring his lightsaber, and how to use it.....

1 minute ago, GroggyGolem said:

Definitely seemed like neutral stupid, bordering on dark side when he finally acted. Previously in the season his talk of balance was less of a Force philosophy and more of an emotional balance by way of not getting hung up on negative emotions, which still runs counter to his actions in Zero Hour.

It's disappointing really. They can bring in characters to canon and kill off canon characters. They can have the main characters meet Vader and Obi-Wan and do some important things for the Rebellion. Then they introduce a character who's entire purpose was to be some sort of Force mentor who turns out to be a massive hypocrite and a murderous, selfish, sad rain cloud that still appatently gets to become one with the Force when he dies, despite having just killed some of the "good guys" along with the "bad guys", indescriminately attacking out of anger.

It's a setting where a man who murdered billions can be "redeemed" and become "one with the force" by saving his own son from being killed...

Just now, MaxKilljoy said:

It's a setting where a man who murdered billions can be "redeemed" and become "one with the force" by saving his own son from being killed...

Vader was supposedly the one exception to all the rules because of being "the chosen one", born of the Force. His final actions were that of love and destroyed the corruption in the Force that was the Sith.

Then you got Bendu just floating around hitting everyone with lightning, basically choosing his own side, angry because someone implored him to stop people from being slaughtered...

4 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

It's a setting where a man who murdered billions can be "redeemed" and become "one with the force" by saving his own son from being killed...

... by murdering his boss who, according to early drafts of the script, he was planning on killing anyway.

What's the problem with having a character espouse a philosophy that falls apart after some investigation? Or with turning out to be a hypocrite? The point seems to be that his supposed balance, his third way, was just a cover for his selfishness.

Sometimes the only correct choice is to fight the Space Nazis.

Just because you are enlightened doesn't mean that you're not a jerk.

21 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What's the problem with having a character espouse a philosophy that falls apart after some investigation? Or with turning out to be a hypocrite? The point seems to be that his supposed balance, his third way, was just a cover for his selfishness.

Sometimes the only correct choice is to fight the Space Nazis.

20 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Just because you are enlightened doesn't mean that you're not a jerk.

Good points, both of you. In much the same way that the Jedi and Sith don't really teach the full truth and their ways can be dogmatic to a fault, easily turning to hypocrisy, the Bendu seems about the same. Not infallible, just another way of living that isn't necessarily better than other options.

The one with the Force deal is odd tho, since that's something only Jedi are supposed to be able to obtain and only really strong ones that are specifically taught how.

59 minutes ago, Sturn said:

Well, you're stretching what it says a bit. It first says they are elite soldiers of Imperial Intelligence. Then it says they are used by Krennic as his bodyguards and enforcers. So, yes it could be what you are saying - enforcers and bodyguards for high ranks loaned out to any branch. But, the Databank only says what branch they are/were from (Imperial Intelligence) then says for Krennic they were enforcers and bodyguards.

I'm just making conjecture. You asked what their role is, and I offered a possibility based on what little we know. It would make some sense for high profile members of the Imperial Military to need bodyguards -- using them like elite commandos is just something they do because totalitarian Empire. Why they're Intelligence doesn't make much sense, unless the death troopers are just assigned to whatever group their charge is, Intelligence for Krennic, Navy for Thrawn, etc.

I didn't think he became one with the Force. I took it to be some sort of Force-based misdirection.

42 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

It's disappointing really. They can bring in characters to canon and kill off canon characters. They can have the main characters meet Vader and Obi-Wan and do some important things for the Rebellion. Then they introduce a character who's entire purpose was to be some sort of Force mentor who turns out to be a massive hypocrite and a murderous, selfish, sad rain cloud that still appatently gets to become one with the Force when he dies, despite having just killed some of the "good guys" along with the "bad guys", indescriminately attacking out of anger.

I'm actually glad about how it played out. Bendu easily had the potential to be a classic deus ex, someone everybody goes to when they need answers or are in deep trouble. The danger was it would be too easy.

Presumably he's off limits now, which does a few things. First, it shows that "balance" isn't always the right answer, unless maybe you're an immortal being with few mundane concerns. But context matters and I'd say the writers were true to Bendu's character in that he was being true to his context. It's really no different than the grumpy old man living next door. You drop your ball on his lawn and he's kind of surly about it, but still, he helps you find it and hands it back. He acknowledges you on the street. But then you and your friends show up, start a brawl and it spills over into his yard. He's had enough of this crap, so out comes the (America: shotgun/Canada: garden hose).

Second, it preserves the mystery of the metaphysics. Bendu surely knows a lot, but the last thing the story needs is a go-to guy with all the answers. Not only is he now off-limits, his character shows he's not someone whose answers are necessarily correct for the galaxy at large.

Third, it keeps things more consistent with the movies which is ultimately a morality tale about picking the right side to fight for. Bendu won't pick a side, except his own, which isn't exactly an admirable point of view in our context.

1 hour ago, Blackbird888 said:

I'm just making conjecture. You asked what their role is, and I offered a possibility based on what little we know. It would make some sense for high profile members of the Imperial Military to need bodyguards -- using them like elite commandos is just something they do because totalitarian Empire. Why they're Intelligence doesn't make much sense, unless the death troopers are just assigned to whatever group their charge is, Intelligence for Krennic, Navy for Thrawn, etc.

Ok rereading I see the "must" instead of "are". My bad, I didn't catch you were speculating.

I'm ok with them being in Intelligence. Having read the prequel to Rogue One, I've speculated "Imperial Intelligence" and "Imperial Security Bureau" becomes one and the same around the Battle of Yavin. I see the ISB/II with Death Troopers in tow as being similar to the Nazi Gestapo.

19 minutes ago, Sturn said:

Ok rereading I see the "must" instead of "are". My bad, I didn't catch you were speculating.

I'm ok with them being in Intelligence. Having read the prequel to Rogue One, I've speculated "Imperial Intelligence" and "Imperial Security Bureau" becomes one and the same around the Battle of Yavin. I see the ISB/II with Death Troopers in tow as being similar to the Nazi Gestapo.

The group I played WEG d6 and HERO-based Star Wars with took my view that the Storm Troopers were the Imperial equivalent of the SS (as I detailed in a few posts previously), with the Imperial Army being equivalent to the Wehrmacht.

The "new canon" appears to maybe be set up so that the Stormtroopers are "regular army" -- and the Death Troopers, attached to the ideologically-driven ISB (which also ends up taking over Imperial Intelligence, which descends from Republic Intelligence, in the manner that the SS kept gobbling up other functions), end up being the equivalent of the SS.

Given what we've seen of the regular Stormtroopers, I think they made more sense as the SS equivalent, but that's just me.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/196833-imperial-army/?page=6#comment-1975440

One of the hallmarks of Nazi Germany was overlapping and vague purviews for different organizations, to keep them too busy with infighting to become a danger to Hitler.

I figure Palpatine does something similar.

3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I don't remember Thrawn doing anything to stop him, though.

Given Thrawn was in the midst of coordinating multiple Imperial ships during an active combat engagement with the Rebel forces and on a separate ship, there's not exactly a whole lot Thrawn could do in that short a time span. It's pretty clear that Konstantine's crew didn't have the gumption to balk at the direct orders from an Admiral, and maybe even wanted in on a bit of the glory themselves. I'm sure that if Konstantine had survived, he'd have faced severe ramifications for disobeying a direct order from his superior officer, since if there's one thing the Imperial military can't stand for it's bucking the chain of command, especially when your actions result in a negative outcome, and loosing a seemingly rare Interdictor cruiser that was a lynchpin of Thrawn's plan is a pretty negative outcome.

If anything, this character flaw of Konstantine was highlighted at the very start of the season, when Governor Pryce cited the man as being more politician than soldier. A soldier generally obeys orders and isn't out for personal glory, while a politician is more apt to think in terms of what advances their career. Konstantine always sought the short-term victory and thus the glory, where Thrawn was willing to accept minor losses in order to advance the larger plan, which is a large part of what made Thrawn a threat to the Rebels.

But it also highlights one of Thrawn's own flaws, namely his general inability to inspire true loyalty in the troops; Thrawn's used to his military forces operating like a well-oiled machine and his subordinates doing as he says simply because he's the one in charge. Top it off with Thrawn being an alien in an Empire that's pretty xenophobic, and I'm surprised that Konstantine didn't try to pull that kind of stunt sooner.

Sure. I said the same thing earlier. Thrawn is a genius, but he's not good with people.

But as commander he's ultimately responsible for allowing an environment in which such insubordination is even thinkable. There's what, three guys with more authority than him in the entire galaxy? He has enough pull that everything that happens under his command is his responsibility, for good or ill.

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

One of the hallmarks of Nazi Germany was overlapping and vague purviews for different organizations, to keep them too busy with infighting to become a danger to Hitler.

I figure Palpatine does something similar.

It's classic way to do things with spy agencies everywhere. KGB, GRU; MI-5, MI-6; CIA, DIA, NSA, FBI (for counterintel); etc. If you have one spy agency, you have one group getting intelligence & knowledge & power, and that's a recipe that goes wrong very easily. So you divide up the power.

I don't think it was just intelligence agencies with Hitler, but honestly, this is just half remembered stuff from school decades ago.I could be totally off base.