Having read Timothy Zahn's Star Wars novels, I love Thrawn. Having said that, I can't stand the voice actor they hired to do his voice. He's just so flat, all the time. The timbre of his voice does nothing for me either.

I've always thought Jeffrey Combs would make a great Thrawn.

Well, having read the Timothy Zahn Thrawn trilogy, just like you, I however can't stand him. I read that series when I was, at best a teenager, at a time when i was WAAAY less critical about the quality of the story I read, and even then he drove me to actual frustration when reading the books. An emotional reaction I don't often get from reading. I could go into detail about why I dislike him, but I already have in other threads, and the inevitable "No you're wrong! He's awesome!" debate is something I'd rather avoid yet again. So we'll just leave it at "You like him, most fans do, I don't"

As to his voice, eh, I really don't care either way about it. I mean, Thrawn always has that elitist, smug, "I'm lightyears more intelligent than everyone else in the room" kind of arrogance to him, and that voice encapsulates that perfectly. So, as far as conveying the character, I have to say it's effective. I just don't like the character, smug voice or not.

It is rather interesting, the way that traits people would find insufferable in a protagonist, seem to often make an antagonist highly popular.

As someone I know puts it..."The fellow you love to hate."

The problem is that 1) Disney/Lucas Arts basically told the fans that had been keeping them alive for all the years between the movies (1983 - 1999) that we were a bunch of suckers and none of it matters. "Thanks for your interest and your money, but f*** what you have learned."

That's not a problem, that's hilaaaarious.

The old canon (Legends) had the TIE Fighter for the Imperials. The Rebels got ahold of the X-wing and it was a good counter, which resulted in the Empire developing the TIE Interceptors as a counter. The A-wing came in to counter the TIE Interceptor, etc...

Some people just want the same song over and over again. I prefer an expansion of the bigger picture. Nothing in your sequence is really violated...after all, the A-Wings haven't been that impressive yet, maybe they're due for an upgrade; and the B-Wings aren't in production, there's just the one prototype.

According to the Databank, the RotJ A-wings are modified versions of the Rebels A-wing that maximize speed while stripping other features, so you're not far off.

The TIE Defenders are only "plans" at this point. If the factory is destroyed it will set back the effort considerably.

In general I don't have a problem with any of these changes in expectations, in fact I welcome it. What it does is show that the movies were only one theatre of action among many...certainly the most important theatre, what with the death of the Key Evilz and all, but still only one.

Besides, if they stuck to the impressions given by the films, they'd be accused of being boring and unimaginative.

The problem is that 1) Disney/Lucas Arts basically told the fans that had been keeping them alive for all the years between the movies (1983 - 1999) that we were a bunch of suckers and none of it matters. "Thanks for your interest and your money, but f*** what you have learned."

and 2) that the current batch of writers are so lazy about the stories they're making that they can't make new things without interjecting stuff that doesn't HAVE to be there. This is known as Intertexuality and it is f***ing lazy when not used right. Used right you get Superman (1970) going up to a payphone to change and it not being a full booth was a funny moment as it fed back to what was known of him from before and connected with the now.

And what we're talking about isn't even from the movies. The TIE Defender was from the TIE Fighter game (1994) and this was set after Empire Strikes Back (specifically the Battle of Hoth). The B-wing didn't appear until Return of the Jedi and it makes sense to be in the hands of the Rebels at that point (5 years since the Battle of Yavin) as they couldn't get enough capital class ships to face down the Empire and its armadas, but a fighter designed to punch through capital ships is a good counter by that point.

The old canon (Legends) had the TIE Fighter for the Imperials. The Rebels got ahold of the X-wing and it was a good counter, which resulted in the Empire developing the TIE Interceptors as a counter. The A-wing came in to counter the TIE Interceptor, etc...

Intertextuality. That's a big word just to describe the feeling of nostalgia. Also, kind of an odd way of looking at things... the very sight of people we know elicit emotional responses, so obviously seeing something familiar will do the same (just the appearance of Loki in Thor: The Dark World was enough to elicit a response, considering everything that happened to him and what he did in previous films such as Thor and Avengers.) It's only smart for filmmakers to put in visualizations of things you might have nostalgia for, as films are 1. A visual media and 2. meant to elicit emotional responses by their very nature.

I guess Agent Kallus is the new Fulcrum...or one of them. Voice patterns were too similar, but given that the fans decoded Ahsoka pretty quickly, that could be a bait-and-switch by Filoni and crew.

I'm wondering what debt Kallus owed. He's a genocidal monster, so I can't see him caring if Zeb did him a fair turn at one point.

It was near the end of season 2,where they started to show that Kallus might not be so bad after all. I completely disagree with that but it's how things are.

Given the way Kallus openly and gleefully reveled in this role in the massacre of the Lasat in a previous episode, I found his comments in the "lost on not-Hoth" episode incongruous and suspicious.

Pity that there's no precedent for a complete and utter bastard to do a heel/face turn. As we all know, redemption is impossible in the Star Wars universe.

Little late to this conversation I know, but didn't Kallus tell Zeb that his involvement in the massacre was not how he made it out to be when he first mentioned it? I seem to recall, in the episode where they were stranded, that he basically said he didn't like what they had to do, and possibly down played his actual involvement, implying that he might've reacted sort of like Finn did in Awakens, being reluctant to just flat out murder innocents. Am I remembering that episode correctly?

Essentially, yes. Kallus told Zeb that his unit was hit by a Lasat Warrior and his men were massacred so they basically responded in kind. The Lasat he personally took down in combat handed him his weapon, since it's the Lasat way and Kallus was honorable to that Lasat.

As far as the TIE Defenders go, do recall that the Rebels are planning a bombing run on the Lothal factory that's producing them, so it's entirely possible that said attack is sufficient enough to keep these new model TIEs from being put into large-scale production.

As for X-Wings, perhaps we'll see them later in the season as part of support from another Rebel cell. Granted, they are something of an iconic ship for the Rebellion, as well as being associated with Luke Skywalker, given it's his preferred ride in the films and for much of Legends, so maybe Filoni's intent is to keep the separate so that Phoenix Squadron can further develop it's own identity as an Alliance group.

As far as the TIE Defenders go, do recall that the Rebels are planning a bombing run on the Lothal factory that's producing them, so it's entirely possible that said attack is sufficient enough to keep these new model TIEs from being put into large-scale production.

As for X-Wings, perhaps we'll see them later in the season as part of support from another Rebel cell. Granted, they are something of an iconic ship for the Rebellion, as well as being associated with Luke Skywalker, given it's his preferred ride in the films and for much of Legends, so maybe Filoni's intent is to keep the separate so that Phoenix Squadron can further develop it's own identity as an Alliance group.

Filoni et al have basically stated precisely this: the rebels at Yavin had the X-wings and Y-wings. Phoenix Squadron had the A-wings and B-wings. We see them all at Endor because the Alliance has pooled their entire fleet for that operation

The problem is that 1) Disney/Lucas Arts basically told the fans that had been keeping them alive for all the years between the movies (1983 - 1999) that we were a bunch of suckers and none of it matters. "Thanks for your interest and your money, but f*** what you have learned."

and 2) that the current batch of writers are so lazy about the stories they're making that they can't make new things without interjecting stuff that doesn't HAVE to be there. This is known as Intertexuality and it is f***ing lazy when not used right. Used right you get Superman (1970) going up to a payphone to change and it not being a full booth was a funny moment as it fed back to what was known of him from before and connected with the now.

And what we're talking about isn't even from the movies. The TIE Defender was from the TIE Fighter game (1994) and this was set after Empire Strikes Back (specifically the Battle of Hoth). The B-wing didn't appear until Return of the Jedi and it makes sense to be in the hands of the Rebels at that point (5 years since the Battle of Yavin) as they couldn't get enough capital class ships to face down the Empire and its armadas, but a fighter designed to punch through capital ships is a good counter by that point.

The old canon (Legends) had the TIE Fighter for the Imperials. The Rebels got ahold of the X-wing and it was a good counter, which resulted in the Empire developing the TIE Interceptors as a counter. The A-wing came in to counter the TIE Interceptor, etc...

Intertextuality. That's a big word just to describe the feeling of nostalgia. Also, kind of an odd way of looking at things... the very sight of people we know elicit emotional responses, so obviously seeing something familiar will do the same (just the appearance of Loki in Thor: The Dark World was enough to elicit a response, considering everything that happened to him and what he did in previous films such as Thor and Avengers.) It's only smart for filmmakers to put in visualizations of things you might have nostalgia for, as films are 1. A visual media and 2. meant to elicit emotional responses by their very nature

As pointed out in the video about Intertexuality, it, in and of itself, as an idea isn't the issue. It is the use of it in ways to lazily provide that emotional response that is the problem. Hence the term "weaponized intertexuality".

A good use of intertexuality, the aforementioned Superman example with the phone booth. Used as a comedic gag to play with expectations. For those that don't know Superman, it is him looking bewildered at a phone booth for a moment. For those that know the older comics, it is funny because of the link to how they used to portray him getting into his suit and now he can't.

A bad use of intertexuality, The Prancing Pony in The Hobbit... a throw back to the Lord of the Rings movie, which actually was written later and took place after The Hobbit.

Or the lazy cameos in Rebels. Really, there aren't other scoundrels in the whole galaxy. They have to run in to Lando Calrissian. Or R2 and 3PO?

Meh. It's easy to blame LucasFilm for being lazy when making use of nostalgia and what you seem to define as bad use of intertextuality (if I understand you correctly.) It's quite lazy to accuse them of that. Sure, they could've done it differently, with both TFA (which is starting to receive flak again it seems [at least elsewhere]) and Rebels - but did we ever accuse TCW of that? When they introduced Bane? When Lucas used Coruscant as the name for the capital planet, a name created by Zahn (I believe) for his books? Also, did it matter then? Does it matter now? And ultimately, why does it matter?

I don't think any of the cameos in Rebels are lazy - the droids make sense due to their involvement with Bail and the Rebellion. You could be correct about Lando, arguably, but it's not like we (so far) see Han Solo, Boba Fett, Jabba (although he's been mentioned,) Dengar, IG-88, Biggs, Mon Mothma, Lobot, Greedo and so on every other episode. Wedge makes kind of sense, although he'll move on to the other rebel cell soon/eventually, sure it's also fan-service, but it was a good episode too. It set up Kallus as Fulcrum, TIE interceptors were established more thoroughly as a thing, and Pryce continues her "growth" as a token-evil-woman. Furthermore it develops Ezra and Sabine.

As for introducing the new ship types (and types of troopers), it was said that Rebels would start to introduce that, particularly leading up to Rogue One (which is partly why season 3 feels and looks quite differently than 1 and 2 - you could say this is nostalgia, or just "getting with the program" as the franchise and storyverse expands and develops.) Rogue One (and it's shore troopers, death troopers, TIE striker) is why we now have Scout troopers, Interceptors, AT-ATs (schematics introduced in Rebels first or second season, the Rodian dude they saved) and soon Defenders in Rebels and before the dates as presented in the EU. Considering the massive retcon of the timeline from when we only had the OT and the EU, we know now how long the Empire existed, that means that certain things were more likely to happen earlier in its existence. At least it would make a lot more sense to create and establish a varied and capable war machine earlier than what one may have thought by only watching the OT.

Also, the feeling of entitlement so many belly-button-staring-fans must suffer from to accuse LF of telling them to "f*** off" and "ruining everything", "ruining my childhood" and that we were a bunch of "suckers" and "none of it matters" and whatnot... just because they decided to establish a new and consistent canon... it must be painful. It's a very peculiar way of framing it. It ensures there's a villain and it accuses someone of motivation and maliciousness. It's impossible to deny or discuss, it becomes absolute and not very constructive, or positive, it changes attitudes and potentially creates a vile environment where things becomes very black and white, with us or against us ... it's an accusation that can never be met, defended or disproved (nor proved, but that's not the point either, it's just an accusing statement in no need of support or evidence, "it speaks for itself".) It's perfect to rile up fellow fans... but it achieves nothing but that. A common and persistent disgruntlement that cannot be cured. Blaming someone, instead of moving on and leaving the pointless anger behind.

In general I could agree that there is an overuse of nostalgia, or intertextuality, in the visual media industry, like the remake of The Mummy with Tom Cruise (Mission Impossible: the mummy edition), and all the other remakes and recycled ideas. Yet, at the same time, we as an audience crave this. It gives us a (false) sense of security, nothing is changing too much, the world is still somewhat like it was in "back in the day." When someone tries to make something new (and/or original) it is rarely, if ever welcomed, in fact it seems we as an audience prefer remakes and old stuff, rather than new thoughts. Of course that is not entirely true, or it's not the only truth. We want new stuff too, but we also want our nostalgia to be satisfied, we want the new stuff to be created in a way, so that we can enjoy references to it later, whether as part of the franchise, or as pop cultural references in other stories. And if the new stuff also references the other old stuff, GREAT! I mean, look at the MCU, with all the films, the crap TV show SHIELD and then the good shows on Netflix. Or the DC stuff with Arrow, Flash, Supergirl and Legends of tomorrow. Self-referential, pop-cultural, nostalgia, intertextuality... it's got it all. It may be bad, but we love it still.

So all in all, I wonder if it's relevant criticism. I mean it is legitimate to call out the tendency, definitely, but does it apply to Rebels? With an adverse effect? I don't think so, not when you look at the totality of the season, the individual episodes, and story crafting they're trying to achieve.

(Does it apply to TFA with adverse effect? Perhaps, but that's a different thread altogether.)

My only worry is that I'm 46 years old now & I met be dead before Disney finish with Star Wars

Changes to canon don't bother me... I love the "feel" of Star Wars far more than who created what & where & when. After all... We're all technically creating our own canon by playing this game after all

This is why I'm so looking forward to Rogue One, an adventure in the Star Wars universe with totally new characters (barring the guy from Clone Wars), I can't wait... It'll be like my Friday night gaming sessions!

Don't really understand some of the examples here. There are some cringeworthy remakes out there, but to criticize references to original movies in Rebels (which exists to expand what we know about the Rebellion - so SHOULD reference it), or Rogue One (which exists to expand what we know of how the Rebellion got the Death Star plans (so SHOULD reference it), or even The Hobbit (which I have great dislike for, but not due to explaining why the wizard left at a critical time, which is described in Lord of the Rings).

As far as the TIE Defenders go, do recall that the Rebels are planning a bombing run on the Lothal factory that's producing them, so it's entirely possible that said attack is sufficient enough to keep these new model TIEs from being put into large-scale production.

As for X-Wings, perhaps we'll see them later in the season as part of support from another Rebel cell. Granted, they are something of an iconic ship for the Rebellion, as well as being associated with Luke Skywalker, given it's his preferred ride in the films and for much of Legends, so maybe Filoni's intent is to keep the separate so that Phoenix Squadron can further develop it's own identity as an Alliance group.

Filoni et al have basically stated precisely this: the rebels at Yavin had the X-wings and Y-wings. Phoenix Squadron had the A-wings and B-wings. We see them all at Endor because the Alliance has pooled their entire fleet for that operation

Which still doesn't answer why they decided to ditch the existing timeline for starfighter development, and bring in these ships before Yavin.

As far as the TIE Defenders go, do recall that the Rebels are planning a bombing run on the Lothal factory that's producing them, so it's entirely possible that said attack is sufficient enough to keep these new model TIEs from being put into large-scale production.

As for X-Wings, perhaps we'll see them later in the season as part of support from another Rebel cell. Granted, they are something of an iconic ship for the Rebellion, as well as being associated with Luke Skywalker, given it's his preferred ride in the films and for much of Legends, so maybe Filoni's intent is to keep the separate so that Phoenix Squadron can further develop it's own identity as an Alliance group.

Filoni et al have basically stated precisely this: the rebels at Yavin had the X-wings and Y-wings. Phoenix Squadron had the A-wings and B-wings. We see them all at Endor because the Alliance has pooled their entire fleet for that operation

Which still doesn't answer why they decided to ditch the existing timeline for starfighter development, and bring in these ships before Yavin.

The old canon was messy, and due for a reboot. It freed up the chance to tell stories inspired by, and in the spirit of the Legends stories, but without being bogged down by the nitpicking details like chronology.

I like it. I think it's cool that the A-Wing gets so much love in Rebels. Old canon isn't canon anymore. Why should we be beholden to it?

As far as the TIE Defenders go, do recall that the Rebels are planning a bombing run on the Lothal factory that's producing them, so it's entirely possible that said attack is sufficient enough to keep these new model TIEs from being put into large-scale production.

As for X-Wings, perhaps we'll see them later in the season as part of support from another Rebel cell. Granted, they are something of an iconic ship for the Rebellion, as well as being associated with Luke Skywalker, given it's his preferred ride in the films and for much of Legends, so maybe Filoni's intent is to keep the separate so that Phoenix Squadron can further develop it's own identity as an Alliance group.

Filoni et al have basically stated precisely this: the rebels at Yavin had the X-wings and Y-wings. Phoenix Squadron had the A-wings and B-wings. We see them all at Endor because the Alliance has pooled their entire fleet for that operation

Which still doesn't answer why they decided to ditch the existing timeline for starfighter development, and bring in these ships before Yavin.

Nope, and they probably won't answer that.

I think partly as abookfulblockhead above, the fact that by introducing things earlier, they get to tell more stories, more diverse stories, without having to use only y-wings and x-wings, which could lead to the series suffer (more) from the intertextuality thing that some criticise it for. If everything was just limited to what ANH showed, and what D6 SWRPG told us about Headhunters and so on... is just not a good limitation in itself, at least not if the argument is: but the old EU said so. Of course, they could make new stuff and not just reuse stuff from the films, but why reinvent the wheel, when you have perfectly usable and good alternatives?

There's no reason to let those starfighters appear or be built late in the war just because the EU/West End Games said so... it's not a good explanation when you realise the Empire lasted for about ... what ... 25 years? The (spark of) rebellion started, in small areas all across the galaxy early on (as we know even before the tv-series)... counter-propaganda, local fights, in a not-so-interconnected galaxy as we (may have) had the impression of the galaxy being. This reinforces a feeling of the rebellion being diverse, disjointed, old and new, appearing in different places, with and by different people, not very unified, gathering resources, proving their worth, their capabilities, building incentives and so on.

As far as the TIE Defenders go, do recall that the Rebels are planning a bombing run on the Lothal factory that's producing them, so it's entirely possible that said attack is sufficient enough to keep these new model TIEs from being put into large-scale production.

As for X-Wings, perhaps we'll see them later in the season as part of support from another Rebel cell. Granted, they are something of an iconic ship for the Rebellion, as well as being associated with Luke Skywalker, given it's his preferred ride in the films and for much of Legends, so maybe Filoni's intent is to keep the separate so that Phoenix Squadron can further develop it's own identity as an Alliance group.

Filoni et al have basically stated precisely this: the rebels at Yavin had the X-wings and Y-wings. Phoenix Squadron had the A-wings and B-wings. We see them all at Endor because the Alliance has pooled their entire fleet for that operation

Which still doesn't answer why they decided to ditch the existing timeline for starfighter development, and bring in these ships before Yavin.

While a great deal of solid work was done building the EU/Legends, once I settled down about those stories being set aside, I realized that doing so was a logical extension of Lucasfilm's long-standing approach to the EU: it counts until and unless it's contradicted on screen.

With the prequels and, to a lesser extent, TCW, that was easy enough to do and avoid much contradiction, as they were dealing with a time period set 20-50 years prior to most EU stories. With the decision to make new movies set in that later timeframe, though, comes the issue of staying beholden to that expansive body of work, or tearing off one seemingly innocuous thread that has an unintended domino effect. Meanwhile, we hardcore fans familiar with the EU aren't enough to bring in the box office numbers that are necessary to keep a major motion picture franchise going successfully. So, while we might have whooped with joy at the presence of Ben Skywalker, Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn, Corran Horn, and so on, the weight of their history can make it problematic to just drop them into a story. With characters like Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren, (and even our returning characters) the whole audience comes in with the same level of information.

Using the MCU as an example again, it's similar to Joss Whedon's explanation as to why Coulson's team didn't show up with Fury in Age of Ultron. More people see the movies than watch Agents of SHIELD. The last that larger audience saw Coulson, he was dead, killed by Loki in Avengers. To have him show up alive and well either leaves that part of the audience confused (at least) or thinking Jose/Marvel can't keep things straight; the alternative is to bring the big action set piece to a screeching halt to summarize a storyline that took a significant chunk of a TV season to tell.

So, while I would have preferred the EU had been kept, the reasons it wasn't are sound. It opens up possibilities for stories all along the timeline, including ones that take inspiration from the EU.

I think the other thing to remember is that while the letter of the old canon is dead, its spirit very much lives on. Thrawn, for example, is very much inspired by his Legends appearances, and linking the TIE Defenders to him is also taken straight from the old canon.

It's obvious the creators have a deep love of the Legends material, and much of what came out of West End Games. Shantipole, for example, was a fun little nod. Sure, it wasn't a Verpine Asteroid base, but the name itself was synonymous with the B-wing. It hinted to fans of the old canon what was to come, without giving away the whole story.

The same goes for Malachor. It didn't tell us the whole story, but we had a hint of what it might mean.

First, Rebels focuses on 1 cell of resistance. Which evidently has a couple of Corvettes and some A-Wings (though I think that these are properly an older version of the A-Wing).

Second, The X-Wing was not developed to counter the TIE. It was developed by Incom as a more heavily armed Z-95 that was capable of Hyperspace travel to replace the aging Y-Wing for anti-piracy duties and local system defense. The Empire saw it as a threat and nationalized the production, the Rebellion ended up with them when the engineers escaped with the plans and some pre-production models.

Third, very often in military history a weapon system has been developed earlier but not put into production due to cost or perceived lack of usefulness over existing systems. It is not until an encounter with a better opposing system demonstrates the need and then the system is green lit for production. Just because they show the TIE Defender's blueprints, does not mean that it is in production.

In SW, it is very reasonable that the TIE Defender may not be seen as cost effective improvement over the TIE/IN, due to the hyperdrive, shields, and Ion guns. Especially, when the TIE series was designed to be the ultimate attrition unit.

First, Rebels focuses on 1 cell of resistance. Which evidently has a couple of Corvettes and some A-Wings (though I think that these are properly an older version of the A-Wing).

Second, The X-Wing was not developed to counter the TIE. It was developed by Incom as a more heavily armed Z-95 that was capable of Hyperspace travel to replace the aging Y-Wing for anti-piracy duties and local system defense. The Empire saw it as a threat and nationalized the production, the Rebellion ended up with them when the engineers escaped with the plans and some pre-production models.

Third, very often in military history a weapon system has been developed earlier but not put into production due to cost or perceived lack of usefulness over existing systems. It is not until an encounter with a better opposing system demonstrates the need and then the system is green lit for production. Just because they show the TIE Defender's blueprints, does not mean that it is in production.

In SW, it is very reasonable that the TIE Defender may not be seen as cost effective improvement over the TIE/IN, due to the hyperdrive, shields, and Ion guns. Especially, when the TIE series was designed to be the ultimate attrition unit.

Did someone claim that the X-Wing was developed to counter the TIE? If so, I missed it.

So I dont know if this is a R1 spoiler or a Rebels spoiler - so I'll put this in both and spoiler both:

So I dont know if this is a R1 spoiler or a Rebels spoiler - so I'll put this in both and spoiler both:

Looking at the video and pausing at a different moment it's definitely the same class.

The one to the right of the VCX looks like the ships Leia provided the rebels in ... season 2 (?). Based on the KOTOR design.

I like to think think it's the Ghost. Maybe they're returning the favour for Jan Dodonna's help when they raid the factory.

I doubt we will see any of the crew, but it's still a very nice nod to continuity.

In a perfect world, we'd get Vanessa Marshall painted green and lekued up in a background briefing scene somewhere. With that, I'd be content.

In a perfect world, we'd get Vanessa Marshall painted green and lekued up in a background briefing scene somewhere. With that, I'd be content.

The most seamless way, without needing live actors, would be to just have Vanessa Marshall on comms saying something to the effect of "Pheonix squadron ready" or "Pheonix Squadron beginning attack run." Something along these lines would be a cool nod to Rebels fans while not requiring any knowledge of Rebels by the audience at large.

Umm … is that her? Or someone else wearing a Lekku hat and serious headphones?