That's one of the reasons I'm really, really hoping I like the sequel trilogy: though the prequels were less-than-stellar movies, I could still get into the stories of that era...after the Clone Wars cartoon, I pretty much can't stand anything to do with the entire time frame because of how pervasive the series was in the lore of that era...with a new movie trilogy, I'm hoping to find a broader time frame I can enjoy.

There were aspects of TCW which I didn't like. But one thing I really did like is the way it took the Prequels (which were flawed in many ways) and smoothed out some of the rough spots. You get to see Anakin start to move towards what he becomes rather than just go "Rawwr! I is evil now", and you get to see how the Jedi come to fail and Palpatine consolidates his power. In RotS, you get a throwaway line by Mace Windu about "he controls the courts!" in justification of why the Jedi can't just arrest the chancellor. But with TCW by the end of it all, you can see him actually doing that and the Jedi becoming more and more isolated. In short, I like all the little bits of subtext when you see protestors outside the Jedi temple or Dooku manipulating the banking clan to get his people in place so that Palpatine can gain control of yet another faction.

I hope that Rebels can do that sort of filling in the blanks / adding subtext. There's plenty of time as it took TCW quite a while to get into that stuff too. The greater focus on a young audience isn't necessarily a barrier to that either as TCW did a good job of passing that sort of stuff over in the background to lightsabre fights and such. However, it's doing a bit of that now and I do appreciate it. The comedy is mostly below my level - it's very broad strokes aimed at kids and I don't really like many of the characters much, but I do appreciate the subtlety in a lot of its world building. Power levels between characters are paid attention to, rather than just sloppily adapted to the writers needs on a whim; the plots can be simplistic but they do make sense and are self-consistent; and there is nuance. I like the governor of Lothal turning out to be as afraid of the Empire as any of the rebels and reaching out to them for help. Characters are real, in other words.

It's not something I'm getting lots of satisfaction out of watching, but I get enough and I'm willing to give it time to see what it turns into. I imagine much like TCW, Filoni has to establish himself and its success to get enough leeway to do what he wants with it. If it's successful, I suspect it will become more complex. One of the promotional stills for it has the emperor standing with what looks like Mara Jade. So there's certainly a lot planned out for it.

Interesting take.

For me, the things you mentioned disliking are things that I pretty much accept will come with any animated venture aimed at the 8-12 demographic. Not exactly what I'd do if I were the one making it, but totally understandable, given the intended audience.

That being said, I find it interesting that you found it lacking in comparison to the Clone Wars cartoons, which I found to be thoroughly and completely lousy in every single aspect in which I tried to evaluate them. I force fed myself a few seasons just to make sure (and to hedge the inevitable patronizing feedback of, "If you didn't like it, it's because xyz. Go back and watch it incorporating xyz and you will like it if you have half a brain.") and by the time I eventually gave up, it not only left me thoroughly disenchanted with the series, but also most of the characters as well.

That's one of the reasons I'm really, really hoping I like the sequel trilogy: though the prequels were less-than-stellar movies, I could still get into the stories of that era...after the Clone Wars cartoon, I pretty much can't stand anything to do with the entire time frame because of how pervasive the series was in the lore of that era...with a new movie trilogy, I'm hoping to find a broader time frame I can enjoy.

I would never try to convert you to a fan of TCW, Hydrospanner. That said, I definitely think even you would have to agree that the writing and complexity of TCW was certainly for a wider demographic than that for Rebels.

The writer Grant Morrison once stated that the ideal comicbook should be written for intelligent 14 year-olds. What he meant by that was that adults could still enjoy the work, but it was certainly suitable for a younger demo. (The fact sales have trickled down to almost nothing in the past few decades - for DC and Marvel's print divisions - certainly has something to do with writing them for aging 30-50-year-old fans in mind... Sigh.) Anyway, I bring this up because I feel Lucas and Filoni nailed it in terms of demo for TCW. Sure, a 5 year-old could enjoy the visuals and toy-friendly environment. But an adolescent or adult could enjoy the nuance and characterization present in those stories.

As Knasserll pointed out, there was quite a bit of subtext and "filling in the gaps" going on in TCW. In fact, I convinced a friend of mine (also into Star Wars) to give TCW a try because the series actually makes the prequels not only watchable but - dare I say it? - enjoyable. Once he and his fiancée wrapped TCW, they both assured me this was true over drinks one night.

TCW dealt with a wide variety of issues, political machinations, and darker themes not usually present in kids' cartoons of the day. TCW delved into regions of space we hadn't visited since the original trilogy, including much seedier locales than that which we'd witnessed in the prequel trilogy. TCW managed to present hard ethical and moral dilemmas for most of its protagonists (and antagonists). And most importantly? There was a huge amount of actual change and character development throughout its run. The personalities and beliefs of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, Asajj, Maul, and many of the clones were quite different in the final episodes compared to those of the first season. However, even at the beginning and end of each season, you could spot the differences. Some even left you wondering...

Rebels, on the other hand, has felt stagnant. It has felt simplistic. It has felt gimmicky. It has felt lifeless.

The series' main characters remain cyphers, only recognizable by their cookie-cutter treatments.

So, yes, Rebels does seem to be a show aimed at a much younger audience (8-12).

That is why I now bid it adieu.

And most importantly? There was a huge amount of actual change and character development throughout its run. The personalities and beliefs of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, Asajj, Maul, and many of the clones were quite different in the final episodes compared to those of the first season.

Rebels, on the other hand, has felt stagnant. It has felt simplistic. It has felt gimmicky. It has felt lifeless.

So, how did TCW do 1.5 years in? Because that’s what you should be comparing Rebels to, not the final episodes of TCW that aired years and years later.

Give Rebels five or six years to develop, and it might also get a lot better. But in the meanwhile, there’s a lot of story gaps they’ve got to try to fill.

Or not — you know, it’s impossible to say where these things will wind up, because the future is always in motion.

But so far, you don’t seem to be willing to give Rebels the same fair shake that you did for TCW.

I don't think it's entirely fair to talk about nuance, depth, and character development comparing 6 seasons and 120 episodes of Clone Wars with 1.5 seasons and 20ish episodes of Rebels. I suspect we'll see some serious character development over the lifespan of Rebels.

And most importantly? There was a huge amount of actual change and character development throughout its run. The personalities and beliefs of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, Asajj, Maul, and many of the clones were quite different in the final episodes compared to those of the first season.

Rebels, on the other hand, has felt stagnant. It has felt simplistic. It has felt gimmicky. It has felt lifeless.

So, how did TCW do 1.5 years in? Because that’s what you should be comparing Rebels to, not the final episodes of TCW that aired years and years later.

Give Rebels five or six years to develop, and it might also get a lot better. But in the meanwhile, there’s a lot of story gaps they’ve got to try to fill.

Or not — you know, it’s impossible to say where these things will wind up, because the future is always in motion.

But so far, you don’t seem to be willing to give Rebels the same fair shake that you did for TCW.

I'd edited my post while you were typing this...

If you go back and re-read it, you'll find my answer.

I don't think it's entirely fair to talk about nuance, depth, and character development comparing 6 seasons and 120 episodes of Clone Wars with 1.5 seasons and 20ish episodes of Rebels. I suspect we'll see some serious character development over the lifespan of Rebels.

From what I've been led to believe? Rebels will only have a 3-year lifespan.

That means we're halfway through.

The series' main characters remain cyphers, only recognizable by their cookie-cutter treatments.

If the show's not for you, then the show is not for you. I wont try and convince you otherwise. However to say they're underwritten ciphers is doing the show an injustice. We just got a episode of backstory on Sabne a couple of weeks ago, we just got some more with Ezra and his folks this week, there's all kinds of hints and nuggets between Zeb and Kallus, we've had a whole novel of how Kanan and Hera met and Kanan has his own comic series that is nothing but backstory.

Rebels, on the other hand, has felt stagnant. It has felt simplistic. It has felt gimmicky. It has felt lifeless.

That's more or less how I felt about TCW, and on top of that, that's how I felt about the very core of the thing: the creation of the Ashoka Tano character. Or more accurately, not the character, as much as the way she's shoehorned into the narrative.

Broadly described, my dissatisfaction with TCW was lousy storytelling of a lousy story. None of the core events of any episode I watched ever drew me in to the point that I cared at all about the characters, what they did, how they interacted, or if, or how, they died.

Had either of the two elements been there (the story, or the telling of it), I would have been at least as on board as I am with Rebels, which I think has a far more plausible premise as well as somewhat of a story to tell, and weak, but not bad storytelling to deliver it. Both elements are ideal, but in a pinch, either one is better than neither. My best friend's dad can tell an entertaining story about going grocery shopping and stopping at the DMV to get his license renewed. No story there, but the telling sells it. Likewise, a guy I hang out with regularly has done a lot of travelling, but is so flat and dry that the only thing that keeps me listening is that he's talking about some adventure he had in southeast Asia. If he were telling me about groceries and the DMV, I'd have to change the subject.

With Rebels, at the very least, there's a decent story, and a neat look at the early rebellion on the cell level, from a realistic point of view that isn't the center of the galaxy. With TCW, the idea of the fate of the galaxy resting in the hands of the characters on-screen was beyond what I could really accept and stay immersed in the story.

one thing I really did like is the way it took the Prequels (which were flawed in many ways) and smoothed out some of the rough spots. You get to see Anakin start to move towards what he becomes rather than just go "Rawwr! I is evil now"

From what I saw, it simply reaffirmed my nagging fear that the entire prequel era would get the same "lots of potential, awful execution" treatment that the movies received. In my mind, it just solidified the connection between the clone wars era and awful material covering it.

And I find it interesting that you'd say that about Anakin, when that ship has clearly already sailed by the time AotC ends. If anything, for me, it creates and even bigger discontinuity between TCW and RotS, since Anakin seems to take a marked step back in development in RotS.

As Knasserll pointed out, there was quite a bit of subtext and "filling in the gaps" going on in TCW. In fact, I convinced a friend of mine (also into Star Wars) to give TCW a try because the series actually makes the prequels not only watchable but - dare I say it? - enjoyable. Once he and his fiancée wrapped TCW, they both assured me this was true over drinks one night.

I'm glad someone likes it.

I had to make three attempts just to get through 2 seasons, and as I said, all it did was reinforce the negative aspects of the movies, and solidify the connotation between the clone wars and subpar material in my mind. TPM was bad. AotC was average with bad parts. RotS was average with wasted potential to be good. TCW, for me, was sort of a mean average of the three, being in general below average, with a few bits of wasted potential that ended up being decent roughly balancing out the truly terrible bits that made me want to just shut it off and give up.

So, how did TCW do 1.5 years in?

Since I re-watch these occasionally...quite well. I think it really takes off with Jedi Crash...that has to be the most action-packed edge-of-seat intro since Pitch Black.

The only thing that bothers me about the early TCW episodes is the lame banter between Obi-wan and Anakin, but they get rid of that; and the way mouths don't quite sync up with what's being said.

So I don't think "maturity" is going to change anything. The same people are heading up the series after all, and they know what they are doing. The Mouse cut their budget considerably...if there's anything that bothers me about Rebels it's that, and I'm sure it affects their storytelling ability.

I thought Season 1 Rebels was good, and built up to great at the end. With Season 2 I've been underwhelmed, but not enough to stop. I'm expecting the same kind of build up towards something epic, they do have a pretty good track record.

Not to totally change the subject...but...how long until we get stats for ID9 Seekers?

I really, really want to play one of those, possibly reprogrammed as a slicer droid.

Not to totally change the subject...but...how long until we get stats for ID9 Seekers?

I really, really want to play one of those, possibly reprogrammed as a slicer droid.

ID9 Seekers? Are those the droids that the Seventh Sister has?

Well, you could ask the crew that has developed “Spark of Rebellion” (see http://www.rpg.buzz/ ). ‘Cause we might be kinda interested in that topic for the next book, which might hopefully be out faster for season two than we have done for season one.

Early Christmas for iTunes Canada users: they just released a boatload of Rebels episodes, up to E9 (Legacy). After helping my parents move some furniture around this evening, I thought the rest of my Friday night was going to be boring...now where is that tumbler and that bottle of Cointreau?

My wife’s favourite drink was a Pineau des Charentes, back when she had the occasional glass.

We also liked Château d’Yquem, but it was rather too expensive for our tastes.

I don't think it's entirely fair to talk about nuance, depth, and character development comparing 6 seasons and 120 episodes of Clone Wars with 1.5 seasons and 20ish episodes of Rebels. I suspect we'll see some serious character development over the lifespan of Rebels.

From what I've been led to believe? Rebels will only have a 3-year lifespan.

That means we're halfway through.

It is not set at a 3-year life span, but that by the end of this 3rd Season the story will have progressed to Rogue One and ANH. There is nothing saying they will end the series at that point, but it does put a time limit on how long they have to tie it all back in to those movies.

The options for them moving into Season 4 are not limited, but they don't have a blank slate either.

Early Christmas for iTunes Canada users: they just released a boatload of Rebels episodes, up to E9 (Legacy). After helping my parents move some furniture around this evening, I thought the rest of my Friday night was going to be boring...now where is that tumbler and that bottle of Cointreau?

Disnet XD just ran a marathon of the episodes up to that one so I just got caugt up. Very nice. Still enjoying it very much.

Not to totally change the subject...but...how long until we get stats for ID9 Seekers?

I really, really want to play one of those, possibly reprogrammed as a slicer droid.

ID9 Seekers? Are those the droids that the Seventh Sister has?

Well, you could ask the crew that has developed “Spark of Rebellion” (see http://www.rpg.buzz/ ). ‘Cause we might be kinda interested in that topic for the next book, which might hopefully be out faster for season two than we have done for season one.

Them's the ones!

One character concept I've been mulling over for years, through several iterations of the Star Wars RPG, but just never had the right game to do it in was that of a positronic processor (like Blue Max), built into the chassis of an Imperial sentry droid (in some versions, the one that was swatted down by the ASP droid in ANH Special Edition). The concept was more of a droid with not a whole lot of capability outside of a scomp link, an advanced sensor package, and a vocoder.

With the "mini-probe droid" design of the ID9 from Rebels, it's a very similar chassis, but one that allows more versatility due to some manipulator appendages and a shock probe. It wouldn't be too difficult to imagine a talented outlaw tech being able to modify one to suit any variety of purposes, from repair droid to personal business assistant. My slicer droid would/should be a pretty easy variant as well. Far from stock, but within the realm of being a plausible player character.

I don't think it's entirely fair to talk about nuance, depth, and character development comparing 6 seasons and 120 episodes of Clone Wars with 1.5 seasons and 20ish episodes of Rebels. I suspect we'll see some serious character development over the lifespan of Rebels.

From what I've been led to believe? Rebels will only have a 3-year lifespan.

That means we're halfway through.

It is not set at a 3-year life span, but that by the end of this 3rd Season the story will have progressed to Rogue One and ANH. There is nothing saying they will end the series at that point, but it does put a time limit on how long they have to tie it all back in to those movies.

The options for them moving into Season 4 are not limited, but they don't have a blank slate either.

If it goes by the standard for Disney shows, then 3 and done is pretty much the norm.

I don't think it's entirely fair to talk about nuance, depth, and character development comparing 6 seasons and 120 episodes of Clone Wars with 1.5 seasons and 20ish episodes of Rebels. I suspect we'll see some serious character development over the lifespan of Rebels.

From what I've been led to believe? Rebels will only have a 3-year lifespan.

That means we're halfway through.

It is not set at a 3-year life span, but that by the end of this 3rd Season the story will have progressed to Rogue One and ANH. There is nothing saying they will end the series at that point, but it does put a time limit on how long they have to tie it all back in to those movies.

The options for them moving into Season 4 are not limited, but they don't have a blank slate either.

If it goes by the standard for Disney shows, then 3 and done is pretty much the norm.

The standard your talking about is the 65th Episode Rule, which as far as I can tell no longer applies. Seeing that Disney has had a number of shows that have gone beyond 3 Seasons. So I doubt that will be the sole factor in how long Rebels will be on just because of a practice from the 90's.

The real determining factors will be 1. The Shows Popularity and 2. Are there still stories they want to tell with these Characters. Really making the 2 the bigger factor of the two at the moment. Especially with how they want to handle Continuity across the Star Wars Universe and the show's story reaching ANH.

The standard your talking about is the 65th Episode Rule, which as far as I can tell no longer applies.

There's an Order 66 joke in here somewhere...

Disney is renowned for cancelling old series to be replaced by new series that more accurately reflect what's in their films.

Just ask fans of "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" and "Spectacular Spider-Man."

Pretty sure what I'd read made it clear Disney was moving on from "Rebels" after the release of "Force Awakens" and the initial spin-off film(s)...

One character concept I've been mulling over for years, through several iterations of the Star Wars RPG, but just never had the right game to do it in was that of a positronic processor (like Blue Max), built into the chassis of an Imperial sentry droid (in some versions, the one that was swatted down by the ASP droid in ANH Special Edition). The concept was more of a droid with not a whole lot of capability outside of a scomp link, an advanced sensor package, and a vocoder.

With the "mini-probe droid" design of the ID9 from Rebels, it's a very similar chassis, but one that allows more versatility due to some manipulator appendages and a shock probe. It wouldn't be too difficult to imagine a talented outlaw tech being able to modify one to suit any variety of purposes, from repair droid to personal business assistant. My slicer droid would/should be a pretty easy variant as well. Far from stock, but within the realm of being a plausible player character.

Sounds cool. I was always a big fan of Blue Max. And Bollux.

Reading those Han Solo books by Brian Daley was one of many defining moments of my childhood; that trilogy is still probably my favorite bit of the Star Wars EU.

Disney is renowned for cancelling old series to be replaced by new series that more accurately reflect what's in their films.

Just ask fans of "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" and "Spectacular Spider-Man."

Pretty sure what I'd read made it clear Disney was moving on from "Rebels" after the release of "Force Awakens" and the initial spin-off film(s)...

I've heard the same thing. That a new series focused on the new trilogy is planned. Doesn't mean we won't see characters from Rebels again if the seriews ends. We are seeing characters from Clone Wars in Rebels. We could very well see characters from Rebels carry over in some capacity in the new series. A grown up Ezra who has realised his potential in the Force. An older Sabine. A still functioning Chopper.

Disney is renowned for cancelling old series to be replaced by new series that more accurately reflect what's in their films.

Just ask fans of "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" and "Spectacular Spider-Man."

Pretty sure what I'd read made it clear Disney was moving on from "Rebels" after the release of "Force Awakens" and the initial spin-off film(s)...

From what I have seen/read Rebels will only end when they are done telling Stories with the Characters in this time frame. Both Dave Filoni and Freddie Prince Jr has come out and hinted that Rebels can go on for more than 3 season depending on how they pace the time line. Right now everyone is expecting the end of Season 3 to be right at Rogue One / ANH, but what if they don't make it there till Season 5. The Show is set 4-5 Years before ANH. If you make each Season a year, you get 4 seasons before having to address those events. Personally, I have not seen anything showing that after Season 3 that they are done with Rebels.

Looking at Marvel's TV Shows, you can draw conclusions that Rebels could be canceled like your examples, but you also forgot that both shows where cancelled only to be replaced by new ones based on the same subject. Which do not accurately depict what is going on in their films, example Wolverine making appearances. We also need to consider the fact that those shows are not part of the MCU Cannon like how Rebels is part of Star Wars Cannon. Something that LucasFilm takes very seriously.

As for new series, I have heard new rumors of resurrecting 1313 and Star Wars Underworld, but nothing more than Kathleen Kennedy talking about exploring new areas of the Star Wars Universe.

I've heard the same thing. That a new series focused on the new trilogy is planned. Doesn't mean we won't see characters from Rebels again if the seriews ends. We are seeing characters from Clone Wars in Rebels. We could very well see characters from Rebels carry over in some capacity in the new series. A grown up Ezra who has realised his potential in the Force. An older Sabine. A still functioning Chopper.

When they do end Rebels, I fully expect to see the characters makes appearances in other Cannon Series regardless of the the type of Media. As for a series based around the new Trilogy, it would be nice to see Sabine and Ezra, but they would be old like Luke. I expect they would want to get them to return much sooner. We have 30 years between the ROtJ and TFA which is leaves more of a chance of them doing something like Jumping the timeline of Rebels from before ANH to after ROtJ than cancelling it for the sole purpose of creating a new series.

I wouldn't assume 1 year = 1 season. The Clone Wars was enough to debunk that idea.

We have 30 years between the ROtJ and TFA which is leaves more of a chance of them doing something like Jumping the timeline of Rebels from before ANH to after ROtJ than cancelling it for the sole purpose of creating a new series.

I don't even think it'd be necessary for them to avoid the classic OT period covered by the movies. I mean...Lothal (and whatever sector it's in) seems pretty isolated from the rest of the galactic goings-on. It'd be reasonable to set a "flash forward" series during , say, the period between ESB and RotJ, and show the adventures of some sort of rebel team as they track down the DS2 plans or some such thing. I could easily see Sabine falling in with the Alliance Special Ops teams.