i don't think comparing vader's duel(s) with luke to the fight with the rebels is in any way reasonable. vader wanted to turn luke, he wanted to kill ezra and kanan. he definitely would have killed ezra if kanan had not interfered. quickly and without any "toying". he didn't need or want anything from them, his plan would have worked just as well with them dead. it was obvious that they were not strong enough in the force to pose any danger to him, so learning anything about their abilities seems like a waste of time to me. the duel between vader and kanan seemed totally out of place and unnecessary.

I cannot see why you think this. Kanan is almost a Jedi and has a lightsabre, an obvious threat appears that it looks like he is best suited to deal with and so he attacks. Why you think Kanan would not try to protect himself and the rest of the Ghost crew, I have no idea. Vader wanted the Rebels to escape overall but seemed to want to kill at least Ezra; but he was prevented by Kanan. I don't see anything contrived in that.

ahsoka didn't join the ghost crew because the ship she was on was close to being destroyed. the ghost went out because phoenix squadron was outmatched. ahsoka coming along was obviously for plot reasons. there was nothing for her to do on the ghost. it would have been easy to include a scene where she sensed something about the tie-pilot. then coming along would have made sense.

The Ghost going out was their best chance of defending the main ship. Ahsoka is a very experienced pilot and fighter, why should she not go along to help? If you have this idea that she can't help because the pilots chair was filled and each gunnery seat was filled then why did Sabine or Chopper or Kanan go along? No-one knows exactly how things are going to play out - whether someone will get hurt, they'll need to repair the hyperdrive, whether she'll need to step in and do the shooting because she's the only one who can hit the Ace fighter pilot attacking them if Zeb proves unequal to the task or if she'll suggest a good tactic or idea to Hera or simply to keep an eye on them. There's nothing useful she can do on the main ship to stop the attacker. There're plenty of scenarios where she can help if she's on the Ghost, and she was right.

noone can tell me with a straight face that a single tie (even vader's personal ship) can attack several cruisers and a battleship and expect to live. that was complete crap. if i remember correctly the cruisers didn't even shoot at him, while he didn't use torpedos or other weapons one might use to attack such a big ship.

It's truly absurd. Like an X-Wing destroying a Death Star. Point is that Anakin Skywalker was the best pilot in the Galaxy. No-one was better than him according to people who had a lot of experience with these things. He took down the Malevolence in TCW, and that spider-general's capitol ship in a later season. He has form with this. It's something of a family trait.

Just curiosity, what do you believe that Kanan and Ahsoka are trying to do to Vader with the Force, some kind of distracion?

I think they were trying to identify the pilot, which is why Ahsoka screamed and passed out. She learned just who Vader really is, that being her old master, and how truly evil he has become since she last saw him when she left the Jedi Temple.

That's possible. But I don't think it is the case. She didn't show any curiosity in who he was until after she made contact (at which point I believe she immediately knew who it was). I think they were trying some sort of mental combat / long distance Influence. Anything to put him off or distract him. I think the reason that this would not seem the most natural conclusion to some is that we haven't seen mental combat before in Canon Sources. At least not that I recall. (There's Anakin versus the two children of the Father in the Mortis arc). But ignoring that it would be something new, it's how it looks to me.

That's possible. But I don't think it is the case. She didn't show any curiosity in who he was until after she made contact (at which point I believe she immediately knew who it was). I think they were trying some sort of mental combat / long distance Influence.

It definitely seems like that was the case. Hopefully somebody shoots a question over via twitter about it and it gets answered in a Rebels Recon or something, and we get confirmation; not that it's needed, but it'd still be neat to know that the characters were taking a more aggressive approach as opposed to just scanning for force connection or something.

I haven't seen the episode yet but...

vader "toying" with his enemies seems out of place. hunting down force users (and killing them) is a huge part of his duties.

Like he toyed with Luke on Bespin? Vader is not 100% devoted to his Emperor, and no doubt secretly chafes under his rule. It's the way of the Sith. Force users who could be turned could give him the leverage he needs. It's doubtful he would approach any Force users with pure destruction in mind, but instead test them, probe them, and see what he can learn.

I haven't seen this episode, either, so this is purely speculation on my part...

But how many Jedi are left in the galaxy 15 years after the execution of Order 66?

Vader's chief joy in life is likely hunting down and killing Jedi. Once he has destroyed the Jedi, there is nothing left for him but bureaucracy and politics and the shadow games of Imperial Center - things that Anakin never particularly enjoyed. And like any hunter, particularly a good one, who has done it for a long period, he knows the greater thrill is in the hunt, not the kill. No sense ending the hunt now, not when he can stretch it out longer... and perhaps crush the hopes and dreams and spirits of the Jedi he is hunting before he casts down their broken bodies at the end of the hunt.

IOW, he's not just arrogant. He's bored. Yes, he could have led a squadron of fighters and bombers to destroy the tiny rebel fleet, but he's not just arrogant enough to believe he can take them on by himself, he's bored enough that it's the only way the whole thing is stimulating. It's like playing a video game on a super easy difficulty level. The only way to make it more challenging is to increase the numbers of the enemy and decrease the amount of support you have going in. And unlike a video game, it's real life, Vader can't just go into the options menu and increase the difficulty of his opponents.

He might just be an icefisher that pulls a fish from the icehole, wrinkles his nose at the fish, and throws it back into the water because it's too small. Once the fish is bigger, he'll be back. And next time the fish may not be so lucky.

sure, you can speculate all you want. that's a lot of fun. i don't see how managed to read vader's thoughts, cause nothing like that was in the episode, though.

ps: i can also think of many reasons why ahsoka would join the ghost. but the show didn't present a single reasonable one.

I guess orhers don't need to have everything spelled out to enjoy a piece of fiction. I would not suggest watching Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive, Inherent Vice or The Tree of Life.

yeah, sure. sometimes these things are no problem at all, sometimes they are. sorry for not having enjoyed something as much as you did and talking about it.

I cannot see why you think this. Kanan is almost a Jedi and has a lightsabre, an obvious threat appears that it looks like he is best suited to deal with and so he attacks. Why you think Kanan would not try to protect himself and the rest of the Ghost crew, I have no idea. Vader wanted the Rebels to escape overall but seemed to want to kill at least Ezra; but he was prevented by Kanan. I don't see anything contrived in that.

ahsoka didn't join the ghost crew because the ship she was on was close to being destroyed. the ghost went out because phoenix squadron was outmatched. ahsoka coming along was obviously for plot reasons. there was nothing for her to do on the ghost. it would have been easy to include a scene where she sensed something about the tie-pilot. then coming along would have made sense.

The Ghost going out was their best chance of defending the main ship. Ahsoka is a very experienced pilot and fighter, why should she not go along to help? If you have this idea that she can't help because the pilots chair was filled and each gunnery seat was filled then why did Sabine or Chopper or Kanan go along? No-one knows exactly how things are going to play out - whether someone will get hurt, they'll need to repair the hyperdrive, whether she'll need to step in and do the shooting because she's the only one who can hit the Ace fighter pilot attacking them if Zeb proves unequal to the task or if she'll suggest a good tactic or idea to Hera or simply to keep an eye on them. There's nothing useful she can do on the main ship to stop the attacker. There're plenty of scenarios where she can help if she's on the Ghost, and she was right.

noone can tell me with a straight face that a single tie (even vader's personal ship) can attack several cruisers and a battleship and expect to live. that was complete crap. if i remember correctly the cruisers didn't even shoot at him, while he didn't use torpedos or other weapons one might use to attack such a big ship.

It's truly absurd. Like an X-Wing destroying a Death Star. Point is that Anakin Skywalker was the best pilot in the Galaxy. No-one was better than him according to people who had a lot of experience with these things. He took down the Malevolence in TCW, and that spider-general's capitol ship in a later season. He has form with this. It's something of a family trait.

well, i guess we'll have to disagree about the duel. he could have easily killed them and his plan would have worked either way. plot-immunity is rarely a good thing, especially if there is another way. vader appears, shows to be extremly powerful, they try to drop the walkers on him, he shows that that kind of nonsense won't work, they flee, barely escaping. simply skip the duel between kanan and vader and the scene is much better.

ahsoka might be the best pilot and fighter in the universe, but she just sat there. she didn't man a gun, she didn't do any piloting stuff. she was there because one scene demanded that she be there. again, this could have been done in another way. she could have found out who vader was by herself. involving kanan seems weird, as finding out who the sith is is a very intimate moment between ahsoka and vader. but, as has been pointed out, it is my fault for not getting the scene, so i guess oyu are right and i am just rambling.

ok, someone is able to claim it with a straight face. i am impressed.

ps: i can also think of many reasons why ahsoka would join the ghost. but the show didn't present a single reasonable one.

I guess orhers don't need to have everything spelled out to enjoy a piece of fiction. I would not suggest watching Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive, Inherent Vice or The Tree of Life.

yeah, sure. sometimes these things are no problem at all, sometimes they are. sorry for not having enjoyed something as much as you did and talking about it.

So, you not liking it and discussing it is fine but me finding fault in your logic and talking about it isn't?

Okay, I'll make a note.

I'll give this show another season because I said I would but I'm not optimistic.

The crew of the Ghost's backgrounds are far more interesting than what they're doing in the show. The show is pretty much the end of their story imo. The rebellion gets on its feet and takes on the Empire overtly. I saw the movies, ep IV-VI. I'd rather see where they came from than where they are.

I kind of look at Ezra and Kanan and see one character split in two. Frankly the show should've kicked off with Kanan seeing his master get killed and going on the run. We should see him as the young kid figuring out how to survive. I can find that interesting. Ezra is just a flat Charles Dickens meets Star Wars generic throw down character to me.

Seeing what the surviving former Jedi/Padawns do with the order destroyed and how they hid and functioned. Seeing what Bail Organa and the like minded did when the Empire was brand new and viewed as the guys that beat the separatists. The story of how the few that recognized the Emperor for what he truly was right away. How do you even plan an insurgency when people like the govt? What did Obi Wan and Yoda do from afar? Star Wars 30 days after Order 66 is more interesting to me.

The whole story between Ahsoka and Vader has potential and when I saw them at the end of S.1 I was happy about that. I just hope this season isn't just 22 episodes of one rebel mission after another.

ps: i can also think of many reasons why ahsoka would join the ghost. but the show didn't present a single reasonable one.

I guess orhers don't need to have everything spelled out to enjoy a piece of fiction. I would not suggest watching Inland Empire, Mulholland Drive, Inherent Vice or The Tree of Life.

yeah, sure. sometimes these things are no problem at all, sometimes they are. sorry for not having enjoyed something as much as you did and talking about it.

So, you not liking it and discussing it is fine but me finding fault in your logic and talking about it isn't?

Okay, I'll make a note.

there's no "fault in my logic". the show doesn't give any reason for her to join. we can fill in the gaps if we wish. in this instance, i don't like it. this is my opinion and you can agree or disagree with it. stop being passive aggressive please. don't care if other people don't have a problem with something not being spelled out. very often i don't have a problem with this (or enjoy it, i love some of david lynch's films) and you do not have to lecture me about it. this time it stuck out to me in a negative way and i am talkig about it. you are just being snappy and add nothing to the conversation. either change that or please stay away from my posts, ok? others have disagreed with me as well and they seem to manage just fine without pointless sniping.

Who is sniping? Because no matter how many valid arguments people gave it was you who insisted "it was just because the plot demanded it" which is just complete arrogance if you ask me. I was merely pointing out that not having things spelled out in excrutiating detail shouldn't be an issue. Especially in a show that doesn't have hours to delve into the how and why.

And yes, I find it reasonable to make a remark about the responsibility to fill in certain things for one's self and invlude examples of movies that let you do that in a much deeper and active way than this small scene in a Disney cartoon did.

As I said before, the fact that the only time Asoka smiled since she appeared in Rebels was when she could join the action, to me, was more than enough explanation. Sure, it was subtle but that told me all I needed to know.

Frankly the show should've kicked off with Kanan seeing his master get killed and going on the run. We should see him as the young kid figuring out how to survive. I can find that interesting.

Seeing what the surviving former Jedi/Padawns do with the order destroyed and how they hid and functioned.\

Not your point, but you should check out the Kanan comics which is focusing on just that.

But yeah, the show's focus seems to just be only on the formation and building up of the Rebel Alliance as we see it by the time we reach A New Hope, with all the other stuff like character histories and tackling the different aspects of the universe being tossed on the back-burner (or at least that's the way it looks based on the last few episodes).

noone can tell me with a straight face that a single tie (even vader's personal ship) can attack several cruisers and a battleship and expect to live. that was complete crap. if i remember correctly the cruisers didn't even shoot at him, while he didn't use torpedos or other weapons one might use to attack such a big ship.

Actually, when the bridge crew said they had a contact and cut to the incoming TIE, I waited half a second to see the fleet right behind Vader. . . and when none arrived, I instantly thought "Oh geez, the rebels are so screwed."

Frankly the show should've kicked off with Kanan seeing his master get killed and going on the run. We should see him as the young kid figuring out how to survive. I can find that interesting.

Seeing what the surviving former Jedi/Padawns do with the order destroyed and how they hid and functioned.\

Not your point, but you should check out the Kanan comics which is focusing on just that.

Meh. Those and the Vader series are the reason I almost always despise comics. The Kanan arc so far is just goofy, extremely poor characterizations. An the Vader arc so far is just silly...Vader has no real character.

Frankly the show should've kicked off with Kanan seeing his master get killed and going on the run. We should see him as the young kid figuring out how to survive. I can find that interesting.

Seeing what the surviving former Jedi/Padawns do with the order destroyed and how they hid and functioned.\

Not your point, but you should check out the Kanan comics which is focusing on just that.

But yeah, the show's focus seems to just be only on the formation and building up of the Rebel Alliance as we see it by the time we reach A New Hope, with all the other stuff like character histories and tackling the different aspects of the universe being tossed on the back-burner (or at least that's the way it looks based on the last few episodes).

The show just gives me the impression that if I hit the rewind button of episode IV at the beginning there's like an hour of movie before the star destroyer scene that I need to watch.

Seeing what the surviving former Jedi/Padawns do with the order destroyed and how they hid and functioned. Seeing what Bail Organa and the like minded did when the Empire was brand new and viewed as the guys that beat the separatists. The story of how the few that recognized the Emperor for what he truly was right away. How do you even plan an insurgency when people like the govt? What did Obi Wan and Yoda do from afar? Star Wars 30 days after Order 66 is more interesting to me.

I'm enjoying the show, but I agree I'd find that more interesting. Probably would be a darker story too, which would suit me just fine.

Jumping into the middle of a story and giving the viewers hints of what happened before is one of Star Wars' oldest traditions.

I'm just really sad they lost the command ship, it looked pretty badass. Like a beefed up CR90 mixed with the back half of a Venator cruiser.

Initially, I found it weird that Vader took out a rebel command ship using only starfgither grade laser cannons.

Then I remembered: you know what else got blown up by starfighter grade lasers cannons? The Executor. Heck, how many times across the various games have we all stripped down a Star Destroyer's shield generators from the cockpit of an X-Wing? It happens almost embarassingly often, second only to the Walker Tow-Cable takedown.

Certainly in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter video games, it's not overly difficult to take down a CR-90, even if you don't resort to warheads. Even this scenario: a single TIE Advanced against a half dozen corvettes and a squadron of A-Wings feels like the kind of mission you might fly in those games.

Plus, let's remember that the entire Alliance order of battle revolves around starfighter strikes against overwhelming odds. Vader just played the Rebels' game better than the Rebels. That makes sense. Anakin was one of the most talented (and reckless) pilots in the galaxy, and while he may have dropped the snarky banter, it's obvious he hasn't lost his edge in the cockpit.

That reversal maneuver? It's the kind of thing only Anakin would do. And watching Vader do it in utter silence was delightfully chilling to me.

Who is sniping? Because no matter how many valid arguments people gave it was you who insisted "it was just because the plot demanded it" which is just complete arrogance if you ask me. I was merely pointing out that not having things spelled out in excrutiating detail shouldn't be an issue. Especially in a show that doesn't have hours to delve into the how and why.

And yes, I find it reasonable to make a remark about the responsibility to fill in certain things for one's self and invlude examples of movies that let you do that in a much deeper and active way than this small scene in a Disney cartoon did.

As I said before, the fact that the only time Asoka smiled since she appeared in Rebels was when she could join the action, to me, was more than enough explanation. Sure, it was subtle but that told me all I needed to know.

i don't see where i was arrogant. i see every argument made as viable, as should be pretty clear from the fact that i said "that sounds reasonable", "well, i guess then we'll have to disagree" or "evereyone is entitled to their own opinion of course". yes, i truly was an avatar of arrogance during this discussion. sigh. sorry again, but i still se things differently. i am happy for everyone who doesn't share my concerns. i clearly stated everything i said as my opinion and nothing but my opinion. guess what, no matter how valid the arguments presented might seem to you, i am still entitled to my opinion, just like everyone else. this whole exchange was totally unnecessary.

once again, there's no need to point out that not everything has to be spelled out every time. i know that. it still doesn't change the way i fell about that particular scene. all the arguments i heard didn't convince me to change my mind. if you want call that arrogant. there's also the tiny possibility that there are many different ways to read a scene. i don't judge anyone for their interpretation, the only one judging someone is you. one of my favorite movies is lost highway and i spend countless enjoyable hours discussing what it could mean. trying to lecture me about these things could be seen as... arrogant?

enjoy the show! i know i do, despite the fact that i found some flaws in one episode (teh horror!). if you don't see these things as flawed, bully for you.

Well, I guess the gloves really came off now... I'll let your non-arogant non-passive aggresive open-minded and inviting reply speak for itself.

Initially, I found it weird that Vader took out a rebel command ship using only starfgither grade laser cannons.

Then I remembered: you know what else got blown up by starfighter grade lasers cannons? The Executor. Heck, how many times across the various games have we all stripped down a Star Destroyer's shield generators from the cockpit of an X-Wing? It happens almost embarassingly often, second only to the Walker Tow-Cable takedown.

Certainly in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter video games, it's not overly difficult to take down a CR-90, even if you don't resort to warheads. Even this scenario: a single TIE Advanced against a half dozen corvettes and a squadron of A-Wings feels like the kind of mission you might fly in those games.

Plus, let's remember that the entire Alliance order of battle revolves around starfighter strikes against overwhelming odds. Vader just played the Rebels' game better than the Rebels. That makes sense. Anakin was one of the most talented (and reckless) pilots in the galaxy, and while he may have dropped the snarky banter, it's obvious he hasn't lost his edge in the cockpit.

That reversal maneuver? It's the kind of thing only Anakin would do. And watching Vader do it in utter silence was delightfully chilling to me.

The Executor was being engaged by at least four MC80s when her shield generator was hit. Ackbar ordered the fleet to focus its fire on Executor and you see two through the bridge viewport and one other on the opposite side from the duo when you get a view of the bridge tower from the side. And one more behind Executor.

My problem with this episode were some of the overwhelming logic problems with the story. Twice the Rebels walk right into traps without batting an eye even though they have been through similar situations in Season 1. Their attempt to pick up Minister Tua reeked of a trap similar to the one sprung by Senator Gul Travis. Then she shows up with a boatload of troopers in tow. Now it's either one of two things:

1) She legitimately wants to defect but the Empire is watching her (which was true)

2) This was always a trap and Minister Tua planned to surprise them.

In this scene the Rebels have an advantage as they are overlooking the troopers, who are unaware of their presence. Rather than do the smart thing and just pick the troops off at a distance they jump into the fray... stupid. So not only do you put yourself at risk, but in the off chance there was even a possibility the Empire was merely suspicious of Tua and had not decided if she was a traitor and would simply monitor her for now.... well you completely blew that out of the water; she's obviously a traitor.

Second major gripe... the Rebels realize their only way off planet is to infiltrate the main base in Lothal's capital and take the shuttle that's on the landing pad. THE ENTIRE time they face almost no resistence... that's not suspicious at all... then they are herded into the shuttle... again that's not suspicious. They take off and NOT ONE OF THEM wonders whether the ship might be being tracked.... really???

Even Vader's plan is somewhat dubious. You basically herd the Rebels into a box that they are trapped in... why didn't you just deactivate the drives? Seriously, you could easily have tortured the information about the redezvous point out of one of them, or Chopper surely had the coordinates. Yeah, they MIGHT lead you to the other Rebels, but then again they might just send you on a wild goosechase.

Third gripe... Vader's attack on the Rebel capital shiup. I really didn't have so much of an issue with the ship being disabled, but they didn't once think to return fire? That was an odd decision.

Overall I thought it was a good episode, but the writing was extremely lazy. It was like one of those action films where the bad guy ALWAYS knows what the good guys are doing, and you wonder how it's possible. Afterward you come to the realization the writer just NEEDED the bad guy to know all because the writer hadn't figured out all of the plot details himself so let's just have the bad guy show up. Vader really served no function other than to propel the storyline.

My biggest gripe of all is that Dave Filoni and team really missed out on some good story ideas. It was briefly alluded to that the Empire was trying to turn the general populace against the Rebels... well we never really saw that, they mentioned it, but that was it. How about forcing the Rebels to stay on Lothal for a couple of episodes and eventually someone they trust turns them over to the Empire fearing retaliation, or maybe they truly believe the Rebels are terrorists. You could have done a lot, but instead the writers took the easy way out.

My final gripe... Vader. Not the fact that he was in the episode, that's fine, and he was quite awesome. But you established this big menacing evil presence throughout this episode, and my guess is he's going to leave the show (for now) to make way for the new Inquisitors. My fear is that these new baddies simply will not live up to the threat Vader poses, and we'll be back to the Rebels beating incompetents week in and week out.

7/10

It was an exceptionally good episode, I couldn't fault it. They managed to make Vader scary again, which they've done well with.

Also, RIP Tua - I actually kind of liked you, and it would have been interesting to see her join the Rebels.

I liked the character but the way her voice jarred with her look always bothered me. The character design looks quite youthful whilst the voice is clearly old, verging on elderly. I would be fine with either so long as they matched. (though I think the old version would be more pitiable and moving ultimately).

Or you just need to realize that your expectations don't always match with reality... for example:

I must be missing something here because I don't get what the video is supposed to mean at all. You think the guy in it shouldn't sound like that based on how he looks? Why not? Anyway, as to expectations and reality, I don't think you have understood. I don't expect the character to be young OR old, I just find it jarring that the two are giving me conflicting information. I've just looked the voice actress up and she's apparently 55 years old. Yet the governor's face looks like she's in her twenties. They don't fit together.

It's called a voice body mismatch. You see someone like Tay Zonday and you don't expect to hear such a deep voice come from such a small body. Same thing with the administrator. You think she looks young, but sounds old. Also, the animators aren't going for realistic renderings and don't seem to do much with creating age lines and such, so you see a smooth face (which is just really very low polys for faster rendering/surfacing) and assume young person.

Even Vader's plan is somewhat dubious. You basically herd the Rebels into a box that they are trapped in... why didn't you just deactivate the drives? Seriously, you could easily have tortured the information about the redezvous point out of one of them, or Chopper surely had the coordinates. Yeah, they MIGHT lead you to the other Rebels, but then again they might just send you on a wild goosechase.

Probelms I see with capturing the rebels and either torturing the rendezvous point out of them or slicing it out of Chopper.

1: Extracting information that way takes time. Finding the rebel rendezvous won't do the Empire much good if the rebels scatter before the Empire gets there.

2: The rebels might commit suicide or in the case of Chopper self destruct rather then be captured.

3: Least likely the rebels might give you a false rendezvous point laced with nasty goodies to wreck anyone who jumps there.

I told you they would never consciously betray the rebellion.