4 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

I thought it was quite well done for what it is. Unfortunately, what it is is yet another display that Filoni (a) doesn't share my preferred conception of the fundamental spirit of Star Wars and the Force and (b) doesn't have the guts to let Ahsoka die, despite the fact that having her survive until the OT is canon-breaking.

With Ghosts of Mortis, we had Star Wars Meets D&D. Now we've got Star Wars Meets Princess Mononoke, followed by Star Wars Meets Stargate SG1. I'm happy for people who like these mashups, but they're just not my thing.

Oh thank you for putting into words what I can not!

I really strongly dislike the Rebels (and Clone Wars) show.
Because no matter what you say about it, if you say "it's for kids" or "it's not supposed to be taken seriously", it IS counted as Canon. And now all these things actually happened in Star Wars.
And that bothers me.

2 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

Oh thank you for putting into words what I can not!

I really strongly dislike the Rebels (and Clone Wars) show.
Because no matter what you say about it, if you say "it's for kids" or "it's not supposed to be taken seriously", it IS counted as Canon. And now all these things actually happened in Star Wars.
And that bothers me.

Heh, I actually like rebels for the most part. The time travel zone stuff I'm not a fan of. The Mortis stuff was borderline okay, but REALLY stretching things. Although it does beg the question if they will canonize Abeloth now.

Do any of the FFG SW RPGs feature Rebels material?

I’ve always been interested in the RPGs, but while I’m not a total hater, I don’t want to be stuck looking through Rebels-based material/rules/characters/etc.

1 hour ago, Arrakus said:

That is technically incorrect. The character and Disney (In a way) have said that they do not consider Ahsoka to be a Jedi. So the whole "No Jedi before OT!!" is still valid in regards to that character.

As you say yourself, this is a technicality. Especially because the important thing about Luke being the last of the Jedi is that this means he alone has the power and skill to save the galaxy from Vader and Palpatine, and he's the last person with the knowledge needed to train further Jedi.

"When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be... but there's also someone else out there who technically quit the Jedi but could also totally pick up the torch if you fail. In fact, it's not at all obvious why she isn't here now helping you out." Not quite the same ring to it, if you ask me.

or...

"That boy is our last hope."
"No...there is another..."

:P

1 hour ago, OddballE8 said:

Oh thank you for putting into words what I can not!

I really strongly dislike the Rebels (and Clone Wars) show.
Because no matter what you say about it, if you say "it's for kids" or "it's not supposed to be taken seriously", it IS counted as Canon. And now all these things actually happened in Star Wars.
And that bothers me.

You do recall that one of major thematic inspirations for Star Wars were the old Flash Gordon movie serials? None of which were meant for adults, instead being aimed squarely at children.

The Star Wars films as a form of entertainment has always been primarily targeting a younger audience, from the original films (a rather simplistic space fairy tale once you take off the nostalgia glasses) to down shows like Rebels and Clone Wars. But what helps Star Wars succeed in such a long term is that it can also appeal to adults, especially those not given over to cynicism.

So in short, just because "it's counted as canon" doesn't mean a work of the franchise has to be aimed solely at adults or be constantly dour and serious. Prior to the canon reset back in April 2014, there was some complete and utter crap produced that aimed at adults that was "counted as canon" that lost sight of what largely made Star Wars such a pop culture phenomenon back in 1977.

1 hour ago, Hawkman2000 said:

Do any of the FFG SW RPGs feature Rebels material?

I’ve always been interested in the RPGs, but while I’m not a total hater, I don’t want to be stuck looking through Rebels-based material/rules/characters/etc.

Many things have been included in various books. The most recent being the Dawn of Rebellion book.

8 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

You do recall that one of major thematic inspirations for Star Wars were the old Flash Gordon movie serials? None of which were meant for adults, instead being aimed squarely at children.

The Star Wars films as a form of entertainment has always been primarily targeting a younger audience, from the original films (a rather simplistic space fairy tale once you take off the nostalgia glasses) to down shows like Rebels and Clone Wars. But what helps Star Wars succeed in such a long term is that it can also appeal to adults, especially those not given over to cynicism.

So in short, just because "it's counted as canon" doesn't mean a work of the franchise has to be aimed solely at adults or be constantly dour and serious. Prior to the canon reset back in April 2014, there was some complete and utter crap produced that aimed at adults that was "counted as canon" that lost sight of what largely made Star Wars such a pop culture phenomenon back in 1977.

See, I keep getting this response whenever I talk about Rebels or Clone Wars being too aimed at kids.

Things can be aimed at kids and adults at the same time.
The Original films were certainly inspired by the Flash Gordon movies, yes (considering the fact that that's what he wanted to make from the beginning but couldn't get the rights to), but to claim that the Originals were made for kids is a strange notion when you have people getting their arms lopped off and scenes of torture and other things that just don't fit in a "for kids" movie. No, Lucas (despite his later claims of star wars always being "for the kids") clearly wanted to make a Flash Gordon-esque movie for adults that grew up on Flash Gordon. I mean, in the 70's and 80's Flash Gordon just wasn't popular with kids in the same way it was in the 30's and 40's any more. Sure, there were plenty of directors who wanted to bring him to the big screen (including Lucas), but that was for nostalgia mostly.

There's a vast difference between the Teletubbies and Legend , for example.
Both are "aimed at kids" if you want to be technical, but they are hardly the same thing.

It's extra obvious if you start comparing things in the Star Wars universe.

For example, would you say that the Ewok movies are aimed at the same audience as the Original trilogy?
Because they're obviously not.

And the same goes for Rebels and Clone wars.


As for there being EU crap that was counted as canon, that's just a common mistake. Nothing except what Lucas made was actually canon. Leland Chee should never have used a "canon tier" system in the first place, since he knew full well that Lucas didn't care one iota for what was made in the EU. Sure, if he liked the name of something or look of something, he might use it, but it was never canon. He'd contradict things that had been considered canon for decades just because he didn't know (or care) that it existed in the first place.
That's not canon. That's fan fiction.

So yes, there was a toooooooooon of stuff that was pure and utter garbage in the EU (as I've expressed numerous times, especially when the whole "disney is killing our universe" whining was at its peak), but that doesn't justify making the garbage in Rebels canon. (And do note the difference here. I'm not saying Rebels is garbabe. I'm saying there's garbage in Rebels that is now canon, because everything that happens in Rebels is considered canon).

3 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

to claim that the Originals were made for kids is a strange notion when you have people getting their arms lopped off and scenes of torture and other things that just don't fit in a "for kids" movie.

It's all about how it's presented. The camera never lingers on the nastiness. Torture mostly happens off-screen.

12 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

As you say yourself, this is a technicality. Especially because the important thing about Luke being the last of the Jedi is that this means he alone has the power and skill to save the galaxy from Vader and Palpatine, and he's the last person with the knowledge needed to train further Jedi.

"When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be... but there's also someone else out there who technically quit the Jedi but could also totally pick up the torch if you fail. In fact, it's not at all obvious why she isn't here now helping you out." Not quite the same ring to it, if you ask me.

Yoda is all about the technicalities when it suits him, up on a level with Ben "From a certain point of view" Kenobi. Remember his entire first conversation with Luke? And of course, "there is another."

Ahsoka being banished from the order and declaring herself to be no Jedi would absolutely be enough for Yoda to omit her if it suits his interests. In addition, we don't even know whether he knows of Ahsoka's survival, even though it is likely.

It's obvious that Ezra will in some way be written out of the story in the finale - he's just too interwoven with the rebellion to not show up in the OT otherwise. The same can hold true for Ahsoka.

The universe is big. They could chasing Thrawn out in the Outer Rim. No hears from him during the OT.

20 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

Oh thank you for putting into words what I can not!

I really strongly dislike the Rebels (and Clone Wars) show.
Because no matter what you say about it, if you say "it's for kids" or "it's not supposed to be taken seriously", it IS counted as Canon. And now all these things actually happened in Star Wars.
And that bothers me.

While I enjoy both shows, I agree with you. There have been some things in the TV shows that I felt made sense for an episode of a cartoon show, but had ripple effects or damaged the feel of the overall property. Hera Hack-Detonating a cruiser would be one such example, and the entrance to the Mines of Moria portal would be another. I really would have rather had the Force be a mystery and not have to define it like they seem to have to do for some reason. I also would rather have it not be more and more showy magic. The Force Unleashed is horrible trash in my opinion because it's just power fantasy.

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force

This wasn't supposed to be a thing you had to actually prove. Vader is saying there is something mysterious, eternal, and meta that makes all of this secondary to another spiritual reality. You don't have to be able to destroy 2 planets with the Force for it to be more important. You don't have to show the Force making people win all the time, and demonstrating it as the content rewind button. They have made terrible mistakes with the franchise.

3 hours ago, Arrakus said:

The universe is big. They could chasing Thrawn out in the Outer Rim. No hears from him during the OT.

It's a possibility, of course, but I think Thrawn might currently be falling out of favor due to his failed TIE Defender project and thus be reassigned to Antarctica or its equivalent.

That is what I was implying. We know Thrawn is not around during the OT. We also know that the Defender was not deployed until after the OT. Leading us to have a pretty good idea that Thrawn is going to fail and get sent somewhere (or killed). If that is true, which would explain why he is completely non-existent during the OT (when the Empire could have really used him) then it is fair to presume that the same COULD happen to Ezra and Ahsoka.

Lucas 1977 before the film's release in American Film: "I decided I wanted to make a children's movie, go the Disney route. Fox hates me for to say this, but Star Wars has always been intended as a young people's movie. While I set the audience for Graffiti at sixteen or seventeen, I set this one at fourteen. maybe even younger."

http://blog.afi.com/from-the-archives-george-lucas-tells-the-star-wars-origin-story/

Lucas in 2017:

He's been consistent on this message... I guess Gary Kurtz missed that memo...

10 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's all about how it's presented. The camera never lingers on the nastiness. Torture mostly happens off-screen.

Torture on-screen is okay if it's through choking or Electricity (see ANH, ESB, RotJ, RotS, Clone Wars, Rebels etc)

15 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:

Torture on-screen is okay if it's through choking or Electricity (see ANH, ESB, RotJ, RotS, Clone Wars, Rebels etc)

Yep. The rules are weird and inconsistent.

Eh, not that weird - electro torture basically consists of the actor screaming and twitching around a little, possibly with a few blue CGI effects thrown in, while choking is even less visible. The graphic difference between that and broken bones, ripped out fingernails and all the other stuff in traditional torture is obvious. And of course, due to the injuries being less visible, it's also more believable for the hero to get back on their feet in time for the final battle.

On 3/4/2018 at 11:45 AM, Stan Fresh said:

It's all about how it's presented. The camera never lingers on the nastiness. Torture mostly happens off-screen.

But it still happens.

Torture in a kids movie?
"oh, but it's mostly off camera, with just the painful screaming in the background"...
yeah, I'm not buying it.

It's for mainly young adults and up.
Doesn't mean kids didn't go watch it, but that was a different time... I watched the Terminator in the cinema when I was 8. Nobody batted an eye, because my dad was with me.
And I know friends who are older who watched Star Wars in the cinema... and they also watched A Bridge Too Far in the cinemas.
Hardly movies for kids, so if you're thinking of using the "but kids watched it" excuse, I'm not gonna buy that.

Good wrap-up. I appreciated the flash-forward post-RotJ. And I want to see the story of that search!

8 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

But it still happens.

Torture in a kids movie?
"oh, but it's mostly off camera, with just the painful screaming in the background"...
yeah, I'm not buying it.

It's for mainly young adults and up.
Doesn't mean kids didn't go watch it, but that was a different time... I watched the Terminator in the cinema when I was 8. Nobody batted an eye, because my dad was with me.
And I know friends who are older who watched Star Wars in the cinema... and they also watched A Bridge Too Far in the cinemas.
Hardly movies for kids, so if you're thinking of using the "but kids watched it" excuse, I'm not gonna buy that.

Twelve year olds are almost teenagers. That's the age group Lucas refers to as kids. I was 6 when Star Wars came out, it was a western in space, but there was a limb cut off.

Wasn't the battle of Scarif the first major rebellion victory? This ending kinda steals the thunder from rogue one.

Well I thought it was a brilliant series and an amazing ending.

You guys can keep your EU. I am canon all the way, especially after seeing this final episode. What an ending!

5 hours ago, Shlambate said:

Wasn't the battle of Scarif the first major rebellion victory? This ending kinda steals the thunder from rogue one.

I think it was the first Major Victory for the Rebel Alliance. I believe what happened on Lothal is seen more as a singular incident. Similar to the Uprising on Botajef. As Governor Price will take the blame for the loss of Imperial forces.

Right. They made a point of stating that this was not a Rebel operation, that they were relying on themselves, and weren’t even requesting help from the Alliance.