4 hours ago, whafrog said:

?? The protagonists are tortured, whole towns are burned, farmers are run off their lands...all this in the first season, and more follows. What more "framing" do you want?

And everyone knows that Alderaan is going to burn. Delta Base Zero as possibility for Lothal is dropped in the first season as well iirc.

16 hours ago, Forresto said:

On a finer point what cities are burned? Because the way the citizenry act their lives don't seem all that bad. I never get even an ounce of the feeling of supreme fascist rule that I get from watching a show like Man in High Castle, or playing Wolfenstein: The New Order, that show how worn down everyone is and how pervasive the government's regimes are. Rebels tries but subverts this constantly by making the Imperials look incompetent.

The entire setting of Tarkintown pretty much ended after it was burned and Lothal's capital looked rather different on the last return trip as well - see the Ithorian's bar that suddenly... wasn't.

Yes, it's a kids show and there were a few moments when I arched an eyebrow (Saw Gerrera with a blaster set to stun? Really?), but apart from those scenes, the series does have its moments twisting the knife.

1 hour ago, Cifer said:

The entire setting of Tarkintown pretty much ended after it was burned and Lothal's capital looked rather different on the last return trip as well - see the Ithorian's bar that suddenly... wasn't.

Yes, it's a kids show and there were a few moments when I arched an eyebrow (Saw Gerrera with a blaster set to stun? Really?), but apart from those scenes, the series does have its moments twisting the knife.

That was Vader. Tarkin. Thrawn. Again these individuals are threatening but on this show they don't make up the Empire. When their underlings are pathetic how scary really are any of these guys unless they're in the room.

Where are the equivalents of Piett and Veers? Why is every Imperial an analogue of Ozzel?

No, I'm talking about a consistent threat from the whole of the Empire.

If they wanted to have goofy enemies then they could've fought pirate groups, bounty hunters, and other rebel groups (extremists like Saw) but not the Empire.

Not even Death Troopers are safe.

9 hours ago, Forresto said:

If they wanted to have goofy enemies then they could've fought pirate groups, bounty hunters, and other rebel groups (extremists like Saw) but not the Empire.

Odd. I could have sworn that goofy enemies would be stormtroopers from the original trilogy, which are garbage compared to republican clone troopers and barely better than battle droids …

4 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Odd. I could have sworn that goofy enemies would be stormtroopers from the original trilogy, which are garbage compared to republican clone troopers and barely better than battle droids …

Since when have stormtroopers actually been goofy enemies?

Last time I checked they were burning families alive, raiding people's houses and businesses, and slaughtering rebels.

In fact the only time they do any significant comedy relief is the Battle of Endor and most people agree it's god awful.

10 minutes ago, Forresto said:

Since when have stormtroopers actually been goofy enemies?

Last time I checked they were burning families alive, raiding people's houses and businesses, and slaughtering rebels.

And getting slaughtered by teddy bears. These are not the stormtroopers you are looking for. Move along.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

And getting slaughtered by teddy bears. These are not the stormtroopers you are looking for. Move along.

*Snip*

Already mentioned the Ewoks dude.

The two clips from a new hope don't diminish the threat of stormtroopers in that film at all.

The Rebels take every worst aspect of the Empire and magnifies it a 1000 fold.

They're telling a story that relies entirely on the capacity of its bad guys. The Empire of Rebels isnt compelling. That's not just bad writing, that's bad story telling.

In the Clone Wars they had their beats where the battle droids are goofy while simultaneously showing them constantly beating and slaughtering clones balancing it out.

I actually dig the way the Empire is portrayed in Rebels. It gives plausibility to the Rebel struggle: those that rebel know the Empire is bad, but it’s not so obviously bad that recruitment is a cinch. The origin story of the Empire is that the instability of the old regime made the political sacrifices and militarization of the new regime worth it. We need to see that the Empire provides something other than arbitrary tyranny to make the struggle believable.

@ObiWanBilbo Then counterpoint worlds getting screwed over like Lothal with views of worlds that are actually doing well under the Empire. Show the seductive side of the Empire that would make even the viewer consider how good life under the Empire might be. Make that a morality lesson for Ezra.

After all lot of Germans prospered under Nazi Germany's rule. A lot of Romans prospered off of Rome's rule. A lot of British prospered under the Empire's colonial. Does that make those people just as bad or unable to do anything? What does it mean to be a bystander?

And not everyone benefits either.

The greatest lesson Rebels could have shown us is that a lot of people who are screwed by the system are fooled into thinking they're prospering or that the vast majority do nothing, and simply wait to see which side wins.

There's a lot of nuance in authoritative regimes, revolutions, and rebellions that Rebels never gets into and saying thats because its a kids show is a disservice to kids.

Kids are pretty smart. They can grasp concepts, they just don't fully comprehend them. Kids also latch onto examples of concepts from books and games and shows.

I don't think its a huge deal, but I think its a terrible idea to show kids how easy it is to defeat "nazis". It requires agency, determination, and handwork but it is achievable. I don't get any of that from Rebels.

Or maybe...that nuance isn’t what this particular show is about. It’s about a small Rebel cell and its journey into the greater Rebellion. It’s about a young boy’s Discovery and realization of his potential and the family that he’s made.

Rebels doesn’t get into the subject matter that you suggest it “should” have not because it’s ostensibly a “kids’ show.” It doesn’t get into that subject matter because it’s not part of this story...any more than it was part of the OT’s story.

I take it Forresto is not saying "this is what Rebels should have been like," but rather, "here is just one example of how Rebels could have been a much more interesting show."

I suspect Rebels appeals most to people who like Filoni's perspective on the Force. That would make the show actually cool, if I didn't consider his perspective to be blasphemy. He seems to think balance in the Force is a matter of the light side and dark side being equal. To me, the light side is balance and the dark side is imbalance. If the Force were perfectly balanced, that would not be a world like mortis with equal amounts of good and evil.

17 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I take it Forresto is not saying "this is what Rebels should have been like," but rather, "here is just one example of how Rebels could have been a much more interesting show."

I suspect Rebels appeals most to people who like Filoni's perspective on the Force. That would make the show actually cool, if I didn't consider his perspective to be blasphemy. He seems to think balance in the Force is a matter of the light side and dark side being equal. To me, the light side is balance and the dark side is imbalance. If the Force were perfectly balanced, that would not be a world like mortis with equal amounts of good and evil.

Mortis was more than just good or evil though. The Son and The Daughter were both influenced by the force users all over the rest of the galaxy, with the war raging there was a stronger Dark Side and a more aggressive and scheming Son. Before the war and the idea of escaping he wasn't really evil.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Or maybe...that nuance isn’t what this particular show is about. It’s about a small Rebel cell and its journey into the greater Rebellion. It’s about a young boy’s Discovery and realization of his potential and the family that he’s made.

Rebels doesn’t get into the subject matter that you suggest it “should” have not because it’s ostensibly a “kids’ show.” It doesn’t get into that subject matter because it’s not part of this story...any more than it was part of the OT’s story.

Not all writing is nuanced but all great writing is.

Nuance is depth and no matter how simple the story if you don't have depth then i'm immersed in a puddle not a pool.

As for a smaller perspective that just means a more contained narrative.

Then what is the story? The OT is nuanced and does address the themes I mentioned (Han Solo's arc, Lando's arc, Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru, etc...)

The show is called rebels and the narrative goes from a band of interesting characters (and I do love the Ghost Crew, they're actually all fantastic characters) to them building a large rebel cell to this season where the Galactic Civil War is just about to begin. The show intrinsically grows larger as the show continues.

Season 1 is terrible, every Imperial is Colonel Klink or Sergeant Schultz, except unlike in Hogan Heroes there are no capable bad guys beyond them. They bring in Tarkin who is a badass for a single episode for them only to blow up his ISD an episode later.

Season 2 is brilliant, and the best season of Rebels because for the most part we escape from Imperial incompetence and see the rebel fleet hounded and on the run. When the Empire shows up its time to run.

Season 3 and Season 4 are caught between season 1 quality and season 2 quality with some of the series best and worst moments.

48 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I take it Forresto is not saying "this is what Rebels should have been like," but rather, "here is just one example of how Rebels could have been a much more interesting show."

That’s a fair enough read. It doesn’t alter the gist of what I was saying, though...that such a story isn’t the one that Rebels set out to tell.

Yowzer. Anyone else seen last night's 2-parter?

Yowzer.

I've got mine on my hard drive, but I didnt have a chance to watch last night. Tonight, however. . . .

17 minutes ago, Bojanglez said:

Yowzer. Anyone else seen last night's 2-parter?

Yowzer.

Yeah. Wasn’t expecting that quite yet.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Yeah. Wasn’t expecting that quite yet.

exactly why it was so powerful. I sat there watching thinking "no way? they're not going to -"

but they did.

I got to see Jedi Knight this morning and i can only say their has been some great story telling from the Star Wars Rebel crew and this episode does not shy away from hard choices. We have all been speculative about Kanan's chance of surviving the series and they delivered the answer in a bitter sweet moment as Hera finally acknowledging what she has always known between her and Kanan. It also makes me sad to accept that this great series is also coming to an end. I hope the characters are not abandoned and that they continue to develop in other star wars series.

Dume was also good and to see how his friends handled their grief in different ways. Also to know Kanan's sacrifice was not in vain.

Spoilers ahead! Ye be warned!

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I'll be honest, I've figured Kanan wasn't going to make it out of the series since the first season, and was kind of surprised he made it through Season 2 (though I suppose Ahsoka was the sacrificial lion of that season).

Heartbreaking as it was for Kanan to go when he did, especially after Hera's final confession of her feelings, it was still an awesome moment to go out on, and even in dying he helped the Ghost crew score a major victory over the Empire and hand Thrawn a rather decisive setback, and perhaps even saving the Alliance in the process. Not a bad note to exit the series on.

And was I the only one to notice that the big spirit wolf during Ezra's dream sequence had the same markings on its brow as Kanan had on his Season 1&2 outfit?

Jedi Night was a great episode. The grand twist was expected in this episode, but it didn't diminish the value of the story

The way things went, it seemed to me, that Kanan could simply have survived, if anyone would have cared to get everyone out alive. It all felt somewhat lazy...

Remember what Kanan said to Hera shortly before he lost his sight? "W e'll see each other again. I promise ."

He kept his promise.

5 hours ago, [Arkas] said:

The way things went, it seemed to me, that Kanan could simply have survived, if anyone would have cared to get everyone out alive. It all felt somewhat lazy...

I watched it again last night and feel the same way - it felt like they actually had plenty of time to get out had Kanan not chosen to be heroic, so it feels clumsy on repeat viewings.

still pretty awesome TV, however

I believe the ship would have been engulfed in the explosion considering it was right next to it. They were still too close right at the end and you'll notice his final push sent the ship away from the tank and pushed him in the opposite direction.

Tbh they should have just landed in the city rooftops and snuck out by way of Jedi parkour. The episode felt rushed, they should have spread the story out more and given it the quality it deserved for such an important moment.