Well, that and the unneeded grammar corrections.

I simply hate playing with people who are so committed to nitpicking rules, trying to get them to work in their favor. Those people aren't playing for the sake of fun, they're being overly competitive.

I'd say that the people who disagree with Scottie and D4raco, would agree with you completely.

While I agree that there isn't a need for a FAQ for this, because Farlander will work the same was as Garvin. That doesn't mean that the people who don't agree are being completely unreasonable, or trying to rule lawyer their way into a win. They no doubt don't believe that it's intended to spend stress that way event though you can spend a focus.

The first rule of Fly Casual should be applied at all times, and that's something many here are not doing. You're belittling and trying to expel someone from the community for simply having a different opinion, and looking at things from a different point of view.

People are accusing them of trying to bend or even break the rules... Yet I'm sure that they are very much of the opinion that Scottie is doing much the same thing.

Taken from the FAQ:

"Spending Tokens

When attacking, players may spend focus tokens or target locks and elect not
to modify any attack dice. When defending, players may spend focus tokens
and elect not modify any defense dice and may spend evade tokens to add
evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results. "

While spending stress tokens is a new thing, I think this rule pretty much covers it as well.

I think this is a good question, because you don't want to run keyan with Push The Limit, then find out your TO rules the other way. Treating it like Garven makes sense, and is most likely the case, but since spending stress is unprecedented, without an official ruling, things are left to the TO's, who may see differently from each other. This makes squad building rather risky, since playing Keyan under one ruling is very different than playing him under the other ruling.

Whike Keyans ability is new, the ruling that you can modify i dice roll with no focus reaults or even with no red dice is a well established ruling.

Citing these rulings should win out over arguments along the line that 'this can't be right. It sounds too easy.'

Farlander is not an auto destress. He needa a target to attack. Much like Phantom with ACD. Would you argue that ACD shouldn't work because it sounds to easy hvat a ship can decloak, attack and then cloak again befor anybody can shoot back?

I think this is a good question, because you don't want to run keyan with Push The Limit, then find out your TO rules the other way. Treating it like Garven makes sense, and is most likely the case, but since spending stress is unprecedented, without an official ruling, things are left to the TO's, who may see differently from each other. This makes squad building rather risky, since playing Keyan under one ruling is very different than playing him under the other ruling.

What he said.

We are having our (rather belated) regional's here in New Zealand at the moment, don't ask why, but after consulting the TO for the event on this issue his interpretation is that you cannot spend the stress unless you roll an eyeball. I want to play Keyan but if there is no clarification from FFG (for either answer) to show the TO before the event I wont be playing Keyan it seems.

Incidentally I have been trying to submit this as a rules question in the Customer services>> Rules questions above, but for some reason the verification image code keeps failing. pretty sure my eyesight isn't that bad that it has failed 6 times already, would anyone else care to ask the question?

Incidentally I have been trying to submit this as a rules question in the Customer services>> Rules questions above, but for some reason the verification image code keeps failing. pretty sure my eyesight isn't that bad that it has failed 6 times already, would anyone else care to ask the question?

Doesn't seem to be working for me, either. Strange...

I think the code refreshes itself after an interval, and if you take too long to type up your query it'll have already changed. Try copying your text and refreshing the window.

I think the code refreshes itself after an interval, and if you take too long to type up your query it'll have already changed. Try copying your text and refreshing the window.

Then it would work after the first failed attempt when you type in the new code (it preserves the message you've typed).

EDIT: Tried it and no dice. Very strange.

I think the code refreshes itself after an interval, and if you take too long to type up your query it'll have already changed. Try copying your text and refreshing the window.

Just tried that, no dice.

I did however get this error message:

“An error occurred on the server when processing the URL. Please contact the system administrator.”

The irony being that you have to use the same query portal to ask for user support.

Hopefully they get it fixed sooner rather than later

Maybe it's Frank's version of [Out of office reply]

I think my real cause for doubt is that the Farlander ability doesn't seem to spend the stress like Garven spends a focus. Farlander "removes" a stress to change focus results. For me that means without a focus result he can't remove the stress.

I am happy with whatever the official ruling is but as it stands I don't think Garven and Farlander are the same.

Desperate need for a FAQ

I think my real cause for doubt is that the Farlander ability doesn't seem to spend the stress like Garven spends a focus. Farlander "removes" a stress to change focus results. For me that means without a focus result he can't remove the stress.

The fact that you spend the token is not what allows you to spend it for 0, and it's not just Garven who can do it.

What allows it is the wording used for the effect of the token: "... change all of the [focus] results to [hit] results." All of zero is still all. Anyone can do it with any ship, but usually there is no reason to do so. Garven provides you with one.

As Keyan uses the exact same wording, there is no logical reason why he would operate any differently.

I think my real cause for doubt is that the Farlander ability doesn't seem to spend the stress like Garven spends a focus. Farlander "removes" a stress to change focus results. For me that means without a focus result he can't remove the stress.

"Spending" isn't what allows it with Garven. What allows it is the wording used for the effect of the token: "... change all of the [focus] results to [hit] results." All of zero is still all.

As Keyan uses the exact same wording, there is no logical reason why he would operate any differently.

Good point. Cheers.

It's not a matter of what Garven does or doesn't do, it's a matter of what spending tokens does. If you're modifying focus results, and the wording is **** near the same, the source of that modification should be immaterial unless the text specifically says otherwise.

Look, this is simple: Farlander says you can change all of your [eye] results. If you get zero [eye] results, and elect to change all zero of them, are you still changing all of them? Absolutely.

I submitted it no issue a day or two. No reply yet though. Playtester feedback confirms general sentiment, however.

I tried submitting it last night as well with no luck. I think their rules question submittal system is messed up.

The answer seems clear as day to myself and what seems like the majority of players. If you look in the core rules book, the wording is basically the same for focus as it is for Keyan's ability. It says change all focus results. Now when Garvin came out people asked literally the same question: does all focus results mean any focus results? The answer, as provided in the FAQ, was a solid yes. Therefore because the same "all focus results" terminology is used in Keyan's ability, all means any there as well.

And for people getting hung up on the use of the word spend, the core rules don't even refer to "spending" a focus when explaining how it works. They say "return to the token supply pool". The word spend is clearly not the key operator here.

Also, in the article discussing the B-Wings of rebel aces, the author refers to Keyan's ability as letting you effectively use stress as a focus when attacking.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4946

Interesting - I've been instinctively playing him WITHOUT removing stress if I didn't roll eyes. I think an FAQ ruling for SW the card game (LCG) leads me to that reasoning, which is that you can't perform the 'cost' of an ability if at least one part of its effect can't trigger... Meaning - do X to perform Y - if X would help you but no part of Y could actually trigger, then you are not allowed to do X at all.

So, under that logic, you would not clear stress if you couldn't at least change one result. But X-Wing also states you can spend tokens to modify zero results - the only difference is that keeping stress has a greater effect on the game than keeping a stray focus or target lock - which is why I think FFG may rule that you must be able to change at least one focus result to a hit...

Just my $.02

A link to a rules clarification from 1 of the game developers can be found here Mcmastermind.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/123953-if-anyone-still-has-doubts-about-keyan-farlanders-ability/?hl=keyan

in it they state that you do not need to roll an eye on your attack die to remove the stress.

I think an FAQ ruling for SW the card game (LCG) leads me to that reasoning, which is that you can't perform the 'cost' of an ability if at least one part of its effect can't trigger... Meaning - do X to perform Y - if X would help you but no part of Y could actually trigger, then you are not allowed to do X at all.

Really. That is odd for a card game. I know in magic if part of a card's effect can't happen you simply don't do that part. The only part of a card that is really mandatory is the cost, what you have to spend. To the point that a card they DON'T want to work that way is phrased. "Spend X you may do Y, if you you do Y then gain Z". Pretty sure netrunner, another FFG living card game works the same way. As do a few others I can think of.

Odd.

Interesting - I've been instinctively playing him WITHOUT removing stress if I didn't roll eyes. I think an FAQ ruling for SW the card game (LCG) leads me to that reasoning, which is that you can't perform the 'cost' of an ability if at least one part of its effect can't trigger... Meaning - do X to perform Y - if X would help you but no part of Y could actually trigger, then you are not allowed to do X at all.

Not the LCG

But in all seriousness, X-wing simply doesn't have this rule. It doesn't even have a strict concept of costs and effects. There are simply effects, and those effects may involve the manipulation of certain game elements such as tokens. And honestly, we don't even have firm rules for how you handle abilities where you can only complete part of the effect, whether those parts are "costs" or "effects".

Really. That is odd for a card game. I know in magic if part of a card's effect can't happen you simply don't do that part. The only part of a card that is really mandatory is the cost, what you have to spend. To the point that a card they DON'T want to work that way is phrased. "Spend X you may do Y, if you you do Y then gain Z". Pretty sure netrunner, another FFG living card game works the same way. As do a few others I can think of.

Here's the actual LCG ruling:

I kinda like the ruling - it's one of the few times where the addage "if you have to ask, do the thing that hurts you" isn't true. Normally, if I don't know the official ruling, I favor on the side that hurts me most, because then you're prepared for whatever the ruling might be...

I can see the difference being that a focus token is a sign of a benefit, something you take that allows you to do something, whereas a stress token is a condition of having done something or having something done to you that restricts you. Allowing the same rules for using/removing both would seem to lessen the penalty aspect of the stress token.

I can see the difference being that a focus token is a sign of a benefit, something you take that allows you to do something, whereas a stress token is a condition of having done something or having something done to you that restricts you. Allowing the same rules for using/removing both would seem to lessen the penalty aspect of the stress token.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but this is an entirely irrelevant argument. All that matters is the text on the card. Whether or not it lessens or even increases the penalty/benefit of a given game mechanic is meaningless to the discussion of how it works.