I'm with bear on this one. I think 150 for Padawan and 300 for Knight are fine (with the understanding that it's the beginning of that level of play).

I don't think XP benchmarks are necessary or helpful in determining "titles." I can think of one Jedi Knight with at least 1000 XP (figuring a very meager 10 XP per Clone Wars episode, and not even counting the films) who was certainly powerful enough to hold the rank of Master...

"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It's unfair! How can you be on the council and not be a Master?"

This, I feel, was the one big shortcoming of Saga Edition (having to be 7th level before being considered a "Jedi Knight," and 13th level before being a "Jedi Master"). Such benchmarks can be helpful for purposes of reference, but IMO should not be encoded into the system in any way...further, I could be cautious about applying them to a situation in which RP and other in-game considerations should be forefront, and game-mechanical XP considerations should be something on the far back burner.

As far as organic building, using starting xp, any organic build not focusing on saber combat should be able to hit FR 3 after 300 session xp, unless they are choosing not to. that's an average of 400 xp, which is a full talent tree, and then some.

You do realize most Talent Tree only get the character to a 2 FR right? You do realize for this "3 FR by 300 EXP" you mean "streamlining up two different non-Saber Trees", yes?

That's not organic. That's a deliberate build. A choice to sacrifice building as you go and focusing in on one thing, "getting to a higher Force Rating".

Eeyore, every choice you make with XP sacrifices something. Choosing to spending 5 XP each on 2 talents and 10 XP on one talent instead of a full 20 XP on a single talent doesn't make character progression more "organic."

If you choose to make a generalist, you are sacrificing specialization, and vice versa. But when you choose to do something , you are by necessity choosing not to do something else.

There's nothing wrong with being deliberate in your building a character, just like there's nothing wrong with be unintentional. It's a game and the players should play and have fun. But, myself, I like to be deliberate when I build & advance a character, and it shows. But that doesn't make it inorganic.

You can reach FR 3 with just about any two career specializations.

"Any two" huh?

And so I'll answer your objection with your own words:

You do realize most Talent Tree only get the character to a 2 FR right?

I'm going to ignore your challenge to build an FR 3 character with all saber specializations, because of course it can't be done. But if Force Rating is important to one's vision for one's character, then one has the obvious choices to make.

EDIT: Sorry for the triple post. This thing is going in so many different directions, I thought it was a couple different threads

I'm with bear on this one. I think 150 for Padawan and 300 for Knight are fine (with the understanding that it's the beginning of that level of play). If you choose to go for breadth over depth you might not get as much of some of the aspects but not every Knight needs to be a superlative saberwielder or a throw X-Wings with their mind.

Well, you could throw X-Wings with your mind for a lot less than 150XP...for me at least (and I'm echoing awayputyurwpn) what makes a Padawan or Knight is more about breadth than depth, and XP doesn't have a lot to say about that. But assuming a player who wants to be broadly capable, the 150 and 300 benchmarks seem like a reasonable bare minimum.

EDIT: I reserve the right to revise my estimate in the future I was rescanning the careers last night and it seems to me a true "Jedi Knight" isn't really one until he's filled out most of the Talents in all three specs in his career, with at least 1 rank in each career skill, and at least bumped up his FR as high as possible with the three specs, with a smattering of Force powers maybe half-developed. That's a "Knight", at least per the media. If they work through 2 careers (6 specs), maybe they can think about being called a "Master". I have high standards

I don't think XP benchmarks are necessary or helpful in determining "titles."

Yes, yes. The council is full of short sighted egotists. Anakin would have fit in well. Anyway, Master is different in a lot of ways from Padawan and Knight. Also, we're not even talking about actual Jedi so the actual title is meaningless. We're just saying "Around this much XP you can start building a character that resembles existing samples of blah."

But if Force Rating is important to one's vision for one's character, then one has the obvious choices to make.

I've made my point: 4-5 FR is not something that most builds are going to see at the 300 EXP level and few will see at the 500 EXP.

But if Force Rating is important to one's vision for one's character, then one has the obvious choices to make.

Nice dodge.

I've made my point: 4-5 FR is not something that most builds are going to see at the 300 EXP level and few will see at the 500 EXP.

Hey Away,

Do yourself a favor and don't bother trying to have a rationale discussion with him.

He's proven to be nothing more than a troll that can only parrot other people's already stated opinions with absolutely nothing original to add to any conversation he shows up in, or simply just pull the sort of "nuh-uh" rhetoric that you find in toddlers, which he just did to you. If someone makes a suggestion he doesn't like, then in his own little world, that person is wrong, end of story, with no room for discussion; as he views himself as being the superior GM to everyone else, up to and including the actual designers and developers of a given RPG. People have made intelligent rebuttals to his claims, and he's just shoved his head further in the sand and ignored them because those folks didn't agree with.

In short, he's a troll that provides nothing of actual value to these forums beyond useless noise. So the best course of action is to simply take HappyDaze's advice and put him on your Ignore list. I've done so, and it's markedly improved the quality of the threads substantially since it's less crap that one has to scroll past to get to the posts that are actually worth reading.

he views himself as being the superior GM to everyone else, up to and including the actual designers and developers of a given RPG

Wait, you aren't? I sure am. :-P

...with no room for discussion...

Oh, and Dono, I'm not better than everyone, just you baby. Just you. /kisses

So, someone in another thread pointed out to me that there are actually two different 2FR specializations which I've edited to account for (Consular[sage],Mystic[seer]). With that, you can actually hit FR5 in 305XP. Which is, of course, and a very narrow and specific build but still a ridiculously quick path.

So, someone in another thread pointed out to me that there are actually two different 2FR specializations which I've edited to account for (Consular[sage],Mystic[seer]). With that, you can actually hit FR5 in 305XP. Which is, of course, and a very narrow and specific build but still a ridiculously quick path.

That sounds like Yoda (with a gazilion less xp...), nice catch.

Still i think that such a build is kinda unrealistic for the 300 xp mark, cause you have no room whatsoever for skills and force powers (nevermind a saber spec, even if IMO is required in any Jedi build), and what use are 5 force dice if you have no power to use?

If you bring it to 400 xp now that would start to be an impressively powerful charcter, and at 500, adding some saber spec it would really start to feel like Yoda.

So, someone in another thread pointed out to me that there are actually two different 2FR specializations which I've edited to account for (Consular[sage],Mystic[seer]). With that, you can actually hit FR5 in 305XP. Which is, of course, and a very narrow and specific build but still a ridiculously quick path.

Still i think that such a build is kinda unrealistic for the 300 xp mark, cause you have no room whatsoever for skills and force powers (nevermind a saber spec, even if IMO is required in any Jedi build), and what use are 5 force dice if you have no power to use?

Oh, its totally a horrible idea, but can you imagine if you started at 300XP (your character would almost certainly not survive building from character creation to this point) and used the rest of your (roughly) 105XP for Force Powers, particular the Dark Side damage powers?