Sure. The problem is that depending on what the thing is, the non force user can do it in two game sessions, while the force user can't until 10 games in. I'm being hyperbolic obviously, but I'm looking at it in the spirit of what makes a character concept actualized, the non force user can actualize it sooner than the force user can due to increased xp sink.

Ok, I'm going to both agree and disagree with you here. I disagree with the premise that it takes a lot more experience to create an "effective" force user than non-force user. You can do many things with both the F&D career specs as well as force powers to have a useful starting character.

I will however agree that it may take a lot longer for your "full" character concept to be realized as a force-user vs not. This only becomes an issue if your campaigns are not suitably long enough to allow you to fully achieve your character's end-stage, and I believe probably an issue between you and your gaming group.

Well as far as how long campaigns go, my friends and I play online as we're all in different states/countries with disparate schedules sometimes. We generally play Saturdays every week for 3-5 hours depending. Plus we go on "season breaks" where we'll run a game about 25-30 sessions or so and then break so another person can run a different game. We sometimes get burnt out GMing so we try to do a round robin of different games and then pick back up later on. So it's about 6-7 months per campaign "season". Based on RAW with xp gain, you figure on average 15 points per game, so say we do 25 sessions, that's 375 xp. Not too bad xp wise, but say we're going off Bear's post on creating a character similar to Asohka, a starting Jedi character would take a full season to get to that level. I suppose that's not so unreasonable, but again, my concern is that the non force using characters will be well underway with who their characters are and what they can do.

IMO, that former knight is NOT a starting character. Point blank. Now, that's not to say you couldn't work the character up, but there is way too much history there to realize a character of that magnitude as a starting character.

Now, if that same character was a jedi initiate (had not even become trained to be a padawan), then you've got a stronger leg to stand on.

So the first thing I would say to realize a knight is to determine what the knight's strengths are. also, it would be good if FFG set a standard for what a jedi knight actually was, not just "special journey" and poof... KNIGHT *jazz hands*

Taking a page from the Eote beta, a FR3 is a young jedi knight. that means that a jedi knight should probably minimum 300 xp invested in talent trees (that's assuming an average of 1 FR per tree, an average FR cost of 90 xp, and 70 xp for specs, with 50 discretionary xp for skills and low hanging fruit). That's a pretty close number to the 300 that Lorne suggested above, though I think the inflation in my thinking comes from the spec costs.

So once you figure what kind of knight he's going to be, try and build the character with say 300-350 xp, and see if that feels like a young jedi knight. (not counting the turn to club owner). Now... you can get close to this by the "knight level" play in the beta, but that would mean no boosting stats at char gen. doable, but a trade off. And you still IMO wouldn't be quite a knight. you'd be an accomplished padawan.

But again, this is that perceptual element that we have, because what makes a jedi knoght is subjective. I loved in the EotE beta that they put a little table explaining that FR 2 was basically a padawan. FR 3 is a young knight. and FR8... well, that's obscene.

It would be nice if there could be a brief side bar that gives some basic criteria for a knight. That's a mixed bag though, as (obviously) every one has a different expectation, and that may be opening the door to a lot more criticism. c'est la viez.

Note: a jedi master IIRC was FR 5 or 6. so using the same formula in my thinking, you're looking at a character such as Obi-wan having 360xp for FR5, with 150 xp for cross spec and 250 or so for misc, which is about 760xp.

Edit: If you give me some more defined criteria, I'm more than willing to try and help design a character, and we can get more specific. Probably via PM at that point. Because the game should be fun, not a an attempt to jump hoops just to be good at the things you want.

They're both pretty much very capable characters with our former Jedi Knight having a hell of a time barely being able to use force abilities and deflecting shots with his saber.

As demonstrated, elsewhere if you assume that having the title of Jedi Knight means "excellent at everything" then you're absolutely right; his character concept is not actualized. Of course, if your character concept is "excellent at everything" you're not going to be able to actualize it no matter what.

On the other hand, if your concept is "Movie-style Jedi" then you're looking at Ataru. As a starting character you're probably spending starting XP per a non-Force Using character on Brawn/Agility and the Lightsaber Skill plus one or two Ataru Striker talents. You also get the F&D bonus experience which can be spent to buy Enhance and Move. And as long as you have Light Side Destiny your force powers can always activate. That's not half bad.

Tack on an extra 150XP and you can fill out your Ataru tree some and maybe buy some upgrades for your Force Powers. With some lucky rolls, even with FR1 you'll still be able to throw people around. You've now got a character more or less on par with a lot of your "standard" Jedi, though his powers are perhaps a bit less reliable (he hasn't been practicing since he's in hiding).

The more critical point is that he isn't actually any less accomplished than his fellow players with the same XP. Your Ataru Striker is going to be very good at combat (especially melee combat) and other physical things and okay at some others. Meanwhile your Operative is going to be very good at sneaky things and okay at some others. And your commander/soldier is going to be pretty good at combat and convincing people and okay at some other things. You've just somehow gotten this misconception in your head that Force Users should be very good at everything. But this has never been held up by canon.

If you want a practical example, I have a Dathomiri Nightbrother (in an EotE campaign). He is an Explorer/Archeologist with a splash into Force Sensitive Emergent and access to the Influence tree. Now, because it had to be a multi-specialization character I am probably weaker than most of my compatriots on average but I was able to put points in traits, skills, two Talent trees, and Force Powers. But I wouldn't call my concept fully realized; and its not because Force Powers take XP. Its because my character concept has me being good at many things. Digging down into the Emergent Tree to get the force rating will also make me better at being a sneaky git, so that's cool. In 150XP when everyone else picks up a second specialization I won't have anything to complain about (aside from the 3 trait I could have bought at character creation and not now; but that doesn't apply to F&D characters).

On the other hand, if I just wanted to slaughter things with my bare hands, I could take one specialization, not spend extra on skills, and be able to buy many Talents in my tree and be tops at killing things. That doesn't mean I couldn't get better at it. Now if I later decided I wanted to be a sniper too, I'd have to start spending my XP on that and I'd stop progressing (or at least progressing as fast) as a brawler. I don't really see why I should expect anything different when my lightsaber fighter starts trying to use Force Powers.

That said, I wouldn't hate the idea of one or two of those Talent slots on certain trees (like the Consular's) basically being buy-throughs for the Force Power trees. It'd be less interesting but it would allow some of the specializations access to a higher Force Rating without the need to buy quite so many Talents when they really want Force Powers.

On the other hand, some specializations kind of do this already by putting the Talent in higher trees or making the route too them more direct.

"Advanced Play" is such a sterile term. I like the term "Knight Level" for the flavor it offers.

And anyway, I think that rank should be independent of game-mechanical experience, at least to a degree...but 300 XP does sound a lot more like "Jedi Knight." 3-4 Force Rating under your belt, a good smattering of mid-level Force powers, a few skills at respectable levels.

"Advanced Play" is such a sterile term. I like the term "Knight Level" for the flavor it offers.

And anyway, I think that rank should be independent of game-mechanical experience, at least to a degree...but 300 XP does sound a lot more like "Jedi Knight." 3-4 Force Rating under your belt, a good smattering of mid-level Force powers, a few skills at respectable levels.

I just made a 500EXP "Knight" and barely hit 2 by the skin of my teeth. Only one person in 5 in this game hit 3, and most of us have a 1 (I think there are two of us with 2).

Granted all but the guy with the 3 are saberswingers... and a few are pretty hardcore sabermonkeys (I'm a middling Sabermonkey). Also most have 1 maybe 2 Force Powers, with the Force Rating 3 guy hitting 5 of them.

"Advanced Play" is such a sterile term. I like the term "Knight Level" for the flavor it offers.

And anyway, I think that rank should be independent of game-mechanical experience, at least to a degree...but 300 XP does sound a lot more like "Jedi Knight." 3-4 Force Rating under your belt, a good smattering of mid-level Force powers, a few skills at respectable levels.

Force Rating 3-4????

I just made a 500EXP "Knight" and barely hit 2 by the skin of my teeth. Only one person in 5 in this game hit 3, and most of us have a 1 (I think there are two of us with 2).

Granted all but the guy with the 3 are saberswingers... and a few are pretty hardcore sabermonkeys (I'm a middling Sabermonkey). Also most have 1 maybe 2 Force Powers, with the Force Rating 3 guy hitting 5 of them.

I'll show ya what I mean later tonight. Working on a build.

"Advanced Play" is such a sterile term. I like the term "Knight Level" for the flavor it offers.

And anyway, I think that rank should be independent of game-mechanical experience, at least to a degree...but 300 XP does sound a lot more like "Jedi Knight." 3-4 Force Rating under your belt, a good smattering of mid-level Force powers, a few skills at respectable levels.

Force Rating 3-4????

I just made a 500EXP "Knight" and barely hit 2 by the skin of my teeth. Only one person in 5 in this game hit 3, and most of us have a 1 (I think there are two of us with 2).

Granted all but the guy with the 3 are saberswingers... and a few are pretty hardcore sabermonkeys (I'm a middling Sabermonkey). Also most have 1 maybe 2 Force Powers, with the Force Rating 3 guy hitting 5 of them.

Doesn't this kind of make the point, though? You've got a Force Rating 3 guy who's (presumably) not the saber-swinger. Saber swinging is an entirely different training regimen than mind-blasting; even if both tap into the Force. I suppose putting FR somewhere on the top tier (may 125 in) wouldn't ruin narrative or game balance but it would make the saber trees just a little bit less interesting.

No, it was more a moment of incredulity that someone was getting to 3-4 FR on 300 EXP, and "blithely" acting as though that was the average.

I'm sure it's more than possible, but 4 FR would be a real tight build at 300EXP. I don;t personally see much room for Force Powers... which is rather what one is getting the FR 4 for in the first place, yes?

Wow. lost my WHOLE post. And I'm too tired to repeat the three examples I had in it. Sigh.

You can be incredulous all you want sir. I have 4-5 pregens that disagree with your POV about what is possible. All made at the Beta "knight" level, and all with FR2 to FR3, and force powers, and some skills, and their own little niche in the group.

Wow. lost my WHOLE post. And I'm too tired to repeat the three examples I had in it. Sigh.

You can be incredulous all you want sir. I have 4-5 pregens that disagree with your POV about what is possible. All made at the Beta "knight" level, and all with FR2 to FR3, and force powers, and some skills, and their own little niche in the group.

I can easily see FR 2 (sure 3 with the right Tree), a few Force Powers (like 2, maybe 3) and few good skills (in the 3-4 ranks range).

Which is what I have at 500EXP... the difference being I'm spread across two Trees and one of those Tree is Sabering (the other being more "Force" orientated).

I don;t personally see much room for Force Powers... which is rather what one is getting the FR 4 for in the first place, yes?

Traditionally, but there are Talents that make use of Force Dice. XP is cheapest path. +XP is cheapest path including upgrades.

Consular(Healer)

1FR = 90XP

Healing Trance (1FD) = +0XP

Healing Trance (2FD) = +15XP

Consular(Niman Disciple)

1FR = 130XP

Draw Closer (xFD) = +5XP

Consular(Sage)

1FR = 70XP

2FR = 135XP

Balance (xFD) = +25XP

Guardian(Peacekeeper)

1FR = 120XP

Enhanced Leader (xFD) = +15XP

Guardian(Protector)

1FR = 75XP

Force Protection (1FD) = +0XP

Force Protection (2FD) = +20XP

Guardian(Soresu Defender) - No FR

Mystic(Advisor)

1FR = 90XP

Mystic(Makashi Duelist) - No FR

Mystic(Seer)

1FR = 60XP

2FR = 140XP

Seeker(Ataru Striker) - No FR

Seeker(Hunter)

1FR = 90XP

Intuitive Shot (xFD) = +25XP

Seeker(Pathfinder)

1FR = 65XP

Animal Empathy (xFD) = +0XP

Mental Bond (1FD) = +5XP

Quick Movement (xFD) = +50XP

Sentinel(Artisan)

1FR = 70XP

Imbue Item (1FD) = +15XP

Intuitive Improvements (xFD) = +25XP

Sentinel(Shadow)

1FR = 100XP

Sentinel(Shien Expert) - No FR

Warrior(Aggressor)

1FR = 75XP

Terrify (xFD) = +15XP

Against All Odds (xFD) +75XP

Warrior(Shii-Cho Knight) - No FR

Warrior(Starfighter Ace)

1FR = 95XP

Intuitive Strike (xFD) = +0XP

Intuitive Evasion (1FD) = +10XP

Intuitive Evasion (2FD) = +65XP

So obviously Sage is going to be your #1 choice for boosting FR. Getting to two FR Talents from one Tree make this the cheapest FR boost you can get. In fact, you can hit FR3 with 1FP+1 upgrade in 150XP. Combine this with the Pathfinder at +65 (+30) XP and you've hit FR4 in only 230XP. That's pretty nice. You've now got 70XP for FD Talents and FP. Sounds like a pretty good (beginning) Knight-level FP User to me.

You can also combine any 2 FR granting trees in under 300XP for FR3 and I'm pretty sure they'll all leave you enough XP for some FD Talents or FP. If you want saber talents (and don't want to be a Niman Disciple) you'll probably have to settle for FR2.

As far as FP go, I think Foresee is your cheapest option to maximize FD use, since it is the only tree with a "per point" ability that I could find. Otherwise, its important to note that having extra FD will always increase your probability of getting your relevant pips in the appropriate quantity (Seek needs 2 for one of its base abilities). Anyway, the (beginning) "Padawan-level" Sage will be able to access Battle Meditation (Oh, the broken things we will do), Bind (meh), Enhance with Coordination or Reslience, Foresee with Strength, Heal with Magnitude (now you're a Cleric!), Influence with Range or Magnitude (Influence without one of the Control upgrades seems largely worthless...), Misdirect, Move with Magnitude (Thermal Detonators. Plural) or Range (Thermal Detonator that might not kill me too), Seek + Magnitude, or Sense.

And that's all without considering the base XP or bonus XP from Morality or the fact that you get a ton of nice Talents on your way to those FRs. As long as folks stop assuming that "Jedi" should have a full saber tree, FR 4 and several FP with upgrades all at character creation we'll get along fine. (Yes, I'm exaggerating. What is not an exaggeration, is that people seem to think a "Jedi" should have all this when other characters are still mucking about in their starting specialization.)

BTW Sage/Aggressor with Against All Odds, Heal, and some Magnitude upgrades would make your party terrifyingly hard to kill.

I agree with Whafrog.

While i inderstand and appreciate the xp sink way to build a Jedi i beleive that the problem with the various specializations is that they have vastly different xp costs to get to the Force Rating talent, i think it goes form about +65 to well over 100.

And a Jedi also has to spend xp on Force power to get the usefulness of his Force Rating, and those are more xp not spent on specializations talents.

I thin kthat such a way to build a Jedi works very well if you want to simulate an Old republiv jedi who had a lifelong training, but for a Rebellion Era it's extremely diffcult to build aprorper or even vaguely capable Jedi. Even with knight-level play: if you give just 150 xp the character will have to choose to either have combat capabilites with the lightsaber, or working force powers or a higher than 1 Force rating, you can't have all three as it should be the case.

Those that have no 2 force ratings do not have dedication. Look at those trees closer and you will see the trade offs.

Lightsaber trees have no force rating.

Eeyore: we're talking past each other. My point, my whole point to you, is that even with only the current 150xp from the beta "knight level" you can have FR 3 characters that have a power or two and appreciable LS skill.

If you choose to be a BAMF saber expert, than the choice you make prevents you from having FR 3. you can't have it all.

For Lorne's 300 xp, you can have FR 3 and have a selection of saber skills, which is where many people see an actual knight level character.

the 500 your talking about is where an established knight would be. someone with FR 4+, saber skills of 4+, saber specialization, and multiple upgraded powers.

I'm not dismissing the fact that force effects can be xp sinks. I think what it does in the end is it makes for choices, because there is a lot of opportunity cost. Which for the person that doesn't plan can get lost in the options.

Something tells me you would enjoy Fate Core a lot more than this system. If fate core had narrative dice.

No, it was more a moment of incredulity that someone was getting to 3-4 FR on 300 EXP, and "blithely" acting as though that was the average.

I was feeling rather blithe yesterday. Thank you for noticing!

The others have done it better than I could! I didn't even consider Sage into Pathfinder, but that is an excellent build! You can reach FR 3 with just about any two career specializations. If you want 4, yeah Sage is the way to go.

I was actually thinking Niman Disciple -> Aggressor for a bit of a Darth Maul feel. Take 3's in Brawn, Willpower, Presence.

Beeline the Force Rating talents for FR 3, and then I'd grab the Enhance basic power and Influence + the Control (skills) upgrade. All of the sudden, you're rolling 3 extra dice for Athletics and nearly all the social skills. Grab the Move basic power and an extra rank in Lightsaber, and that seems like a pretty solid character. And you've got 20 XP still floating around; 30 if you want to use that Morality option for +10XP. I'd use the 30 XP to buy down the Move power tree.

After a few sessions, I'd have likely saved enough XP for the Dedication talent, at which point I'd choose whether I wanted a 4 in Willpower or Presence (I usually like to play my character through a bit before deciding on such things). I'm thinking Willpower though, because of his Lightsaber skills and eventual Move power prowess.

I've also wondered if the cost of taking a new spec was too high - in general and not just for F&D careers.

The trouble is that some Talents can be abused as they appear in multiple trees if there's no XP cost for additional access - but this also has the unfortunate side-effect of penalizing players trying to build characters that aren't min/maxed munchkins but have a diversity of ability (something that Jedi builds require).

Sam Stewart also mentioned on the Order66 podcast that you can build classic Jedi but it was designed so that you'd have to sink XP into it as a balancing factor.

I also think that F&D requires some rethinking on the part of players and GMs compared to previous Star Wars RPGs. In previous RPGs being good at a broad spectrum of force abilities was relatively easy. You could take a balanced approach to creating a Jedi and be good at using the force and swinging a lightsaber - or create a build focused on one over the other.

F&D seems constructed so that you can get good at a variety of force powers fairly easily (Sense, Move, Enhance, Influence) that comprise the more "core" Jedi force powers but some force powers are more elite (which is born out in the movies) and some force powers will require more XP and FR dedication to do well.

In other words, in Saga Edition you picked up Skill Focus: Use the Force, had an average Charisma and Wisdom and took the Force Training Feat to pick up whatever force abilities you wanted with a high degree of proficiency but with F&D you'll need to be more careful and selective in how you go about getting force powers; in F&D there's more specialization involved in force users. In F&D you can build a well-rounded Jedi with lightsaber ability and force powers but you'll need to prioritize things more than you did with other editions. It seems like at the upper end of advanced characters (over 1000XP or the mid to high teens in Saga) things will even out and you can have a Jedi character who is very powerful in lots of force powers including advanced force powers and a powerhouse with a lightsaber.

Another factor that's different is that Saga characters started out more capable wheras FFG Star Wars characters need to ramp up more.

And I mostly agree with Lorne's assessment of FFG StarWars character development compared to Saga. If you use the "standard" d20 model that a new level takes about 4 sessions then a level 7 character is about 500XP AFTER character creation (assuming moderate XP progression and motivation for 24 sessions).

If you play weekly that's 6 months. My group usually sticks with a campaign for around a year so you'll have a long time of play with a very advanced character. Achieving that Jedi Knight or Jedi Master is doable. If your group has faster turn around on campaigns then you can go with a combination of Knight Level play (or even start with higher XP) and a faster rate of XP progression.

Eeyore: we're talking past each other. My point, my whole point to you, is that even with only the current 150xp from the beta "knight level" you can have FR 3 characters that have a power or two and appreciable LS skill.

What I disagree with is that this will be the "norm" and that it's simple and easy to get. It's a pretty tight focus with little to no organic building in it.

If you choose to be a BAMF saber expert, than the choice you make prevents you from having FR 3. you can't have it all.

For Lorne's 300 xp, you can have FR 3 and have a selection of saber skills, which is where many people see an actual knight level character.

the 500 your talking about is where an established knight would be. someone with FR 4+, saber skills of 4+, saber specialization, and multiple upgraded powers.

I think your missing how expensive multiple specs start to get... and how quickly just buying up 2 skills gets. Sure you can get to FR 4, 2 Skills at 4-5, 3+ Force Powers with at least half their upgrades, a Saber Spec with a few talents picked up (specifically sabering talents)... maybe. But it's a tight fairly specific build.

This is the point I keep trying to make: These are tight builds that probably won't be the norm. Sure, when someone gripes "But how can you call 300 EXP 'Knight Level Play'?!?!?!" mock them, pop out one of these laser focus builds, and prove it's possible.

But don't discount those of us saying, "It's not the norm".

Something tells me you would enjoy Fate Core a lot more than this system. If fate core had narrative dice.

Then I fell in love with the dice and when his game ended I said, "Hey, I'll run... once I've reworked the system a bit."

* Actually what I said was, "Isn't that the system with the weird dice we both kneejerkingly hate?" and he said "Yeah, but at least I know you won't break the Dodge mechanics out the gate unlike Shadowrun 5e..." which was a spurious accusation. Just because I recognized a deep flaw in the system within 30 minutes of picking up the book doesn't mean I'd make a Dodge Master Gun-Bunny... okay, yes, yes it does.

I was feeling rather blithe yesterday. Thank you for noticing!

You can reach FR 3 with just about any two career specializations.

Okay, put your money where your mouth is:

Do it with these combos:

Makashi Duelist+Ataru Striker

Shien Expert+Shii-Cho Knight

Soresu Defender+Niman Discipline

Heck, I'll make it easier, pick any one Saber Tree and any one non-Saber tree; but you can't draw from the three Consular Specs, that leaves you 15 specs to chose from...

Have I made my point?

Being you can't "easily" get Sabering and FR above 2, let alone your "4-5" without picking up more specs (or doing pretty specific builds). In most cases it'll take 3 Spec trees to hit 4 (and 4 specs to hit 5).

I was actually thinking Niman Disciple -> Aggressor for a bit of a Darth Maul feel. Take 3's in Brawn, Willpower, Presence.

Beeline the Force Rating talents for FR 3, and then I'd grab the Enhance basic power and Influence + the Control (skills) upgrade. All of the sudden, you're rolling 3 extra dice for Athletics and nearly all the social skills. Grab the Move basic power and an extra rank in Lightsaber, and that seems like a pretty solid character. And you've got 20 XP still floating around; 30 if you want to use that Morality option for +10XP. I'd use the 30 XP to buy down the Move power tree.

Presuming Warrior-Aggressor as the starting point:

Niman Spec: 30

Aggressor Tree: 75

Niman Tree: 130

Enhance Basic: 10

Influence Basic+Range (or Magnitude)+Control (skills): 30

Move Basic: 10

Lightsaber: 10 (presumed 1 from human)

Total: 295 EXP

He has an "adequate" Lightsaber skill (1A2P)*, is good at scaring people (Coercion 2A1P+3FD)**, good at Athletics (2A1P+3FD), and has no other skills beyond starting level.

* With only 1 Reflect and CoB (Improved CoB though) he's nothing special Saber wise.

** The Force Dice will really shine here. The two Fearsomes will be good at clearing Minions as well. However since it's an Action to use Influence (the Control doesn't change that) he won't be using force boosted Coercion in combat often, if at all.

If this is you guy's idea of "FR 3 with a decent selection of Saber skills and appreciable Lightsaber skill" well... we disagree on the definitions of "decent selection" and "appreciable".

Ah so... well eeyore, I can't help all your players, but I would say you have to prioritize. the saber jocks, they made their choices, choosing to specialize. low hanging fruit (5-10 xp talents) and row 5 items add up fast, and if you don't prioritize, then certainly the costs of getting extra specs seems disproportionate. Aslo, the concepts of diminishing returns is a big deal. Sure, we all want dedication, but that 25 xp could be better used to fill out your concept.

As far as organic building, using starting xp, any organic build not focusing on saber combat should be able to hit FR 3 after 300 session xp, unless they are choosing not to. that's an average of 400 xp, which is a full talent tree, and then some. Powers... well that depends on what you want out of them. And "story reasons" or organic character building is just as easy a concept to be over used as "builds." The truth is that character gen should fall somewhere in the middle.

Me personally, I think knight level should be more like 200-300xp, not the somewhat aenemic 150, but I respect the reasons why it's not. I can see them, in general game design, and in the tone the devs put into the updates and the writing and everything. That tone says, "you want to be a specialist? than you'll need to earn it. And it will come with a cost."

I'm sorry that you guys are having so much trouble making it work, I really am. I like it when everyone is happy and we can all hug trees and sing campfire songs about how our forefathers were irresponsible and we're more enlightened. (The hyperbole not withstanding, I'm serious. I want people o have fun with games, and at a minimum of personal futzing, which we all do).

That being said, if you want something bad in the system, take it. be creative and organically work your build so that everything meets in the middle in one glorious whole of happy. because a game shouldn't be work. It should be Fun. and I hope, above all, your group and you have fun.

Just a couple of point here. One is that I'm not talking about "builds", I'm talking about what's possible. You actually have an average of 100-110XP over the numbers I used to be "organic" with. I was also rather explicit on the fact that Saber skills will require a sacrifice. The only character that *should* have FR4 that early is one who's dedicated to it, and Sage rather explicitly represents that dedication. In addition, you *will* have excess XP from any two FR-granting options, which means that you can still have some amount of saber Talents. And that's still discounting that 100-110XP you get at character creation.

But yes, the more general you make yourself, the harder its going to be good at something. That only makes sense. Especially since, strictly speaking, "average" is 2A. Good is 2P+. Very good is probably something like 3P1A+.

Ah so... well eeyore, I can't help all your players, but I would say you have to prioritize.

That's what I'm pointing out. "FR 4-5, LS skill 4, decent selection of Saber Talents, and 3-4 Force Powers bought half way up" is not possible on 300 EXP.

500 EXP? Sure, it can be done. That's what, Sage+Niman, fluff both a bit (150ish EXP in each), grab 100 EXP worth of Force Powers, and dump around 100 EXP in skills.

Did you see what I did there? I agreed with you and pointed out the streamlinedish approach, which is the only build that gets to 4FR and has a shot at 5 and everything else at 500 EXP

As far as organic building, using starting xp, any organic build not focusing on saber combat should be able to hit FR 3 after 300 session xp, unless they are choosing not to. that's an average of 400 xp, which is a full talent tree, and then some.

That's not organic. That's a deliberate build. A choice to sacrifice building as you go and focusing in on one thing, "getting to a higher Force Rating".

That tone says, "you want to be a specialist? than you'll need to earn it. And it will come with a cost."

I'm sorry that you guys are having so much trouble making it work, I really am.

"Trouble making it work"? We made the characters we wanted on 500 EXP. Everyone seems happy. No issues...

My point, once agian: FR 4-5, a decent amount of Saber Talents (at least say 4-5 distinct talents), a good measure of Force Powers (3-4 purchased halfway up), at 300-500 EXP is not really possible outside a few tight builds.

In other words: What you and awayputurwpnare claim should be "the average" is not the average at all. It's pretty specialized and focused.

More than likely what we'll see as the average is something like this:

150 EXP - FR 1, 2 Force powers dipped into (or 1 bought half way up), LS skill at 2-3 ranks, a few skills bought up 1-2 ranks, a handful of talents from the starting Tree.

300 EXP - FR 2, 2 Force Powers bought to the midpoint (or 1 completely bought), LS skill 3-4, a handful of frequently used skills bought to 1-2 ranks, about 3/4 up one Tree or has a smattering of Talents from 2.

500 EXP - FR 2-3, 2-3 Force Powers bought past the midpoint, LS skill 4-5, a handful of frequently used skills bought to 2-3 ranks, either finished 1 Tree and is about halfway up the second or a good solid 3/4 in 2 trees. A few will have scattered purchases across 3 trees.

For reference, the "average" of the group of Jedi I linked is this (ignoring the non-Force User):

500 EXP - FR 2, 2 Force Powers bought halfway up, LS skill 4, 1 skill bought up 3 ranks, 2-3 skills bought up 1 rank, 1 Tree 3/4 completed, 1-2 Trees streamlined. Everyone has at least 1 Saber Tree and 1 Force User Tree.

It's my assumption eeyore. Only that and worth nothing more.

I and my players bought up FR rather than powers. We still have basics, and 1-2 upgrades for the important ones, but buying a power half way up as you put it is specializing in the power. Not dabbling, IMO.

I think we have a different idea of what it means to attain talents in a way that is flavorful and "organic"

See, often when I design a character, I think about 100xp out. I identify what I want, what my goal is. And I go for it in the most efficient way possible. Example: I want more FR. End result, I get FR for 100ish xp.

Example: I want more stealth. I move into shadow or force emergent, get sleight of mind of two ranks, and that's 100ish xp. Or I take ranks in stealth

The point is, I don't see the inefficient xp sink. I see cost and benefit. Maybe it's my accountant training, but there you go.

At this point we've both said what we're going to say. So I believe we're at impasse, but just what I said above, I feel like those characters are either too focused and spending inefficiently, or too generalized, and spending inefficiently.

But as long as you and your group are happy, that's all that matters. To me.

EDITED slightly to clarify the meaning between the beers, and wine, and one G&T.

The point is, I don't see the inefficient xp sink.

I'm just "arguing" where we should mark the "titles" (Knight Level, Master Level, etc).

The point is, I don't see the inefficient xp sink.

Neither do I. I think it's fine.

I'm just "arguing" where we should mark the "titles" (Knight Level, Master Level, etc).

I'm with bear on this one. I think 150 for Padawan and 300 for Knight are fine (with the understanding that it's the beginning of that level of play). If you choose to go for breadth over depth you might not get as much of some of the aspects but not every Knight needs to be a superlative saberwielder or a throw X-Wings with their mind.