Parent's that hyphenate can be so cruel.

"See? He doesn't think it's progressive. And he's got a goatee!"

you actually are probably about ready to become a padawan.

Looks like we found a new name for it.

Here's my back-of-the-envelope calculation (in actuality, performed on the back of a cocktail napkin (don't judge me!)) by interpretting, from all things, SAGA edition:

Max level at SAGA was 20, a certifiable BAMF supreme. 800 earned XP makes you a BAMF, if not ready for outright retirement, in FFG, so if my elementary division skills aren't cheated by the martinis (no judging!), that's 40XP per level in SAGA.

Double-checking my arithmetic, 40XP is rougly 8 hours of gametime, wherein one could easily fit about 8-10 encounters, which is on par with SAGA guidelines for leveling.

Now, in SAGA, you weren't a "Knight" until level 7 or 8, which is going to translate to about 300 earned XP before you can justifying calling yourself a "Jedi Knight". That seems about right to me.

I will judge you for your double parenthetical.

Otherwise... yeah, I'd say that's about right... If you want to slap a label on things.

Cardinal - "Does making a man a knight make him a better fighter?"

*blank stare as if contemplating the meaning of the question and it's implications, or trying to divide 28 by 13*

Balian - "Yes."

(if you don't believe me, get the screen play and read those stage directions for yourself. )

I'm not judging, I'm just jealous.

I'm not judging, I'm just jealous.

You can has martinis, too, if you can justifying them!

Perhaps just call what's currently dubbed "Knight-level" to instead be "Advanced Play" with the 150 XP and bonus credits (I still think a flat 10K is too much, even if limited to non-restricted gear, but that's another topic) and then create a new level that's properly dubbed "Knight Level" with 300 XP as Lorne suggested, with the gear options being "lightsaber and small stash of credits" or "10K in gear, a small portion (25% maybe?) can be spent on restricted items."

with the gear options being "lightsaber and small stash of credits"

I mean, Padawan had lightsabers.

I guess I just see this schism in thinking. No one expects to be Boba Fett with 150xp. but many expect to be Adi Gallia, or Ayla Secura, or etc.

I feel this is directed as me as i complained about the knight-level misnomer.

I don't think that at that xp level you should be Ayla Secura or Obi-Wan in AoTc, but that mimicking Obi-Wan in TPM it should be possible. And after reflectin about it realized my problem: the Force Rating. It is possible to build a good copy of TPM Obi-Wan with 150 xp, showing his talents and his Force Power, but you are limited to a FR1, and that is too unreliable to activate your powers reliably. I assumed that Obi-Wan never failed to activate his powers beacuse of DS pips, but i came to realize that, well, maybe he doesn't use those powers as much as i thought. He spends most of the film using his talents and his skills but rarely activates his powers (and when he really needs to use Move he uses DS pips anyway).

It actually fits with the portrait of Jedis who use the Force sparingly and only when needed.

Maybe the CRB will add fluff to explain that point, as it could really be a disappointment for players.

I still believe that Knight-level play is a misnomer and FFG should either change it to Advanced play or even better Padawan-level (and add a Knight level at 300 xp).

We got to remember that in AotC, Obi Wan was 10 years into knighthood and nearing his transition to becoming a Jedi master. Well beyond what Knight Level was meant to represent. In fact, you are right, It seems that Knight level play is supposed to represent Force users in the beginning of their knighthood.Though he wasn't a knight in TPM, it was made obvious that Obi Wan was ready to face the trials, so in that respect, Knight-level play is fine at 150 XP.

I do agree that it could use some relabeling. "Advanced play" is fine. They could then add a sentence explaining that "Advanced Play" is intended to allow characters to create a Forse user at the same level as a Jedi who had just passed his Trials to become a Jedi knight.

The biggest problem is that everyone has varying opinions on what a "Knight" is. There's no objective metric we can use.

Lareg: It's not directed at anyone specific, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. It's something that has been creeping into the way this beta's been approached, compared to the Edge beta, and it's not that anyone is wrong. For all the above reasons.

Even if mimicking obi-wan in TPM, he was ready to be a knight (basically, even from the get go, and he defeated Maul, no small feat). In Saga terms I would place him probably around level 6 at the start of the film, which is a fair bit above where even a 150 xp character would be in this beta would be (see lornes cocktail calculations).

Plus, any main character is going to suffer from the kitchen sink approach, as most all of them have some measure of everything and some special narrative McGuffin or ability that separates them from our PCs (like bastille shan's meditation, naga sadow's force illusions, etc.)

We all want awesome characters. and in a jedi only game, I'd say go for it. but since these are meant to be compatible with eote, I think it's important to realize that as low as these bounty hunters and scoundrels start, our force users are starting from the same place of weakness, or mediocrity, or inexperience, or what ever euphemism floats you boat (tickles you pickle, makes your kim chi, etc.).

Its murky because 'Knight' is just a title and not an objective or quantifiable level of skill in the source material.

Obi-Wan likely had his knight-hood held back by the council for some time simply because he was so headstrong and impulsive. Having a master that didn't tow the council line probably didn't help much either. Noone could deny his skills after killing the Sith who slew his master. All of those things are true of Anakin as well. The council were not willing to grant him the title of master after the clone wars despite his accomplishments and skills.

I think the 150xp (padawan level) and 300 xp (knight level) benchmarks are good and hope the final book supplies such rough guidelines. In addition to that, I would love the final book to provide the fluff concerning the story-related benchmarks to actually earn the various titles under different Jedi Order stuctures and Force using traditions in different time periods.

Providing some guidance when marrying the two sets of benchmarks (story and game), even if it is very rough, will help me alot.

I've recently delved into the new FnD Beta, and based on what I've seen and mock character's I've made, it certainly does seem that the issue with "Force Users" is the extreme amount of XP it requires to be any sort of an effective character--that is to say, a character you would expect to be any sort of capable as a "Force User".

I think this becomes a bit unreasonable, especially when creating characters for essentially any other sort of concept can easily be created and start off as fairly capable from the get go. I am familiar with the arguments already made thus far, and there are a lot of good points being made, but I've always been wary of the this "fetishism of balance" when it comes to Jedi/Force Users and Non-Force Users in Star Wars games. It always seemed unfair to me that in order for there to be a "good game", the playing field needs to be artificially leveled, which consists of gimping Jedi/Force Users who are the most iconic and important part of Star Wars. Obviously no one wants to be constantly overshadowed by Jedi in every Star Wars game, and people should be able to enjoy playing other character concepts; I just don't think it's necessary to create such a huge artificial gap to achieve this.

Honestly, this game line is probably the closest to creating effective force using characters, like Jedi, without being horribly imbalanced, but there are still too many limitations that force users have to compensate for.

I think some simple recalculations and reworking of some of the talents and specialization trees would do the trick in helping characters who are force users not seem completely ineffectual from the start, while still maintaining a healthy game play balance where every other character can still enjoy themselves.

...the playing field needs to be artificially leveled, which consists of gimping Jedi/Force Users who are the most iconic and important part of Star Wars.

See, this right here (particularly the highlighted word) is the problem. While Jedi are indeed the most *iconic* part of Star Wars, they are actually far from the most important. Ep.1-3 may have played up the Jedi aspect significantly (particularly because 2&3 were telling the story of Anakin's fall) but even they contained numerous important and impactful characters who were not force users. Don't forget how much of a badass Amidala was in TPM.

The Clone Wars series tells most of its story from Anakin's point of view but watching it you realize that although the overarching story is meant as background for RotS, it is largely about the clones themselves; as well as a number of other important non-Jedi characters.

In the final part of the series, although Luke certainly becomes the most iconic of the characters throughout much of the movies the other characters are far more important than he is. In fact, in the end it is not his status as a Jedi that ends up being important but the fact that the emperor asks Anakin/Vader to kill his own son; someone who reminds him of himself and is one of his last living links to Amidala.

So, no, despite the fact that a lot of fans see the Jedi as the iconic saber-wielding d they tend to be, they are far from the most important characters in Star Wars. And the original Jedi arc (Ep.4-6) demonstrates that they tend to start their training with pretty pathetic access to the force and slowly develop their abilities over time. You mention breadth of ability, but Luke starts out as an Ace(Pilot) who quickly dips into Force Sensitive Emergent before he enters into Jedi training. Anakin might have started out as a variant on Warrior(Starfighter Ace) or more likely Ace(Driver) with a splash into Force Sensitive Emergent. If you wanted to represent a starting level Jedi in the Old Republic, you'd probably be talking about an older Youngling. If you really want to, you *can* reach FR2 at character creation (especially with the bonus XP F&D gives) and still have XP left to buy at least one Force Power with upgrades. I wouldn't recommend it but overspecialization always has a cost. Also a lot of the iconic but less flashy abilities of Jedi are represented by various tiers of Talents making them even easier to access and far more reliable.

Its not "fetishization" of balance. It *is* balance. And every canon material demonstrates quite clearly that although other characters tend to be skilled in different areas than their Jedi companions they are actually *in balance*.

See, this right here (particularly the highlighted word) is the problem.

In fact I prefer to play non-Force Users in Star Wars games, Cheddar Knights are so overdone.

...the playing field needs to be artificially leveled, which consists of gimping Jedi/Force Users who are the most iconic and important part of Star Wars.

See, this right here (particularly the highlighted word) is the problem. While Jedi are indeed the most *iconic* part of Star Wars, they are actually far from the most important. Ep.1-3 may have played up the Jedi aspect significantly (particularly because 2&3 were telling the story of Anakin's fall) but even they contained numerous important and impactful characters who were not force users. Don't forget how much of a badass Amidala was in TPM.

This is true...to a point. Amidala was a bad ass. So was Leia, Han, Chewie, etc. I don't think anyone would argue against that, but to say that Jedi are "far from the most important" is incorrect. Episodes 1-3 told the story of Anakin's fall yes, and it also showed the fall of the Galactic Republic and the formation of the Empire, which was the focal point of the original trilogy. And how did that come about? Through the machinations of Palpatine, a Sith Force User .Granted besides being a Force User, Palpatine was no doubt a political genius, but he was a Force User nonetheless, and recognized to use his abilities to gain what he needed--after all "the dark side clouded everything".

This is a significant event because as Obi-wan puts it "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."

Just right there without context tells you how important Jedi/Force Users are to the stability of galaxy at large.

The Clone Wars series tells most of its story from Anakin's point of view but watching it you realize that although the overarching story is meant as background for RotS, it is largely about the clones themselves; as well as a number of other important non-Jedi characters.

Also true, but that has nothing to do with the perceived importance and power that Jedi and Force Users have, nor does it diminish the importance of these characters as well. Just like in any other game being run, you would have other character arches going on at the same time.

In the final part of the series, although Luke certainly becomes the most iconic of the characters throughout much of the movies the other characters are far more important than he is. In fact, in the end it is not his status as a Jedi that ends up being important but the fact that the emperor asks Anakin/Vader to kill his own son; someone who reminds him of himself and is one of his last living links to Amidala.

Have to disagree with that. The whole point of the original trilogy was the struggle to remove the Empire, which as I stated above is run by Sith--the Jedi's counterpart. Yoda basically tells Luke he needs to fight against Vader and the Emperor to stop them. I believe it's been agreed upon for the most part, that had Luke not been there to confront Vader and the Emperor, the Rebellion would have lost. He kept them distracted to allow the Rebels to do what they needed to do. Would be funny to see how things turned out if Luke wasn't there and Vader stayed on Endor to deal with the Rebels attacking the generator. I doubt the Ewoks would have mattered. And to that point of "it is not his status as a Jedi that ends up being important..." let's remember one of the most famous lines of the original trilogy: "You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi. Like my father before me." It was a refutation of the Emperor and the Empire itself. And like Obi-wan's quote, the Jedi were the Guardians of the Old Republic. So his status as a Jedi in the new galaxy IS important.

So to me, Jedi are the most important characters in Star Wars. Include the EU in that as well and it's even more so. Star Wars would not be Star Wars if it weren't for Jedi. It would just be another space opera. And regardless of importance or not, it still leads to my whole argument of why do they need to be constantly gimped? If they're NOT important, then why bother with the artificial limitations? No one makes this argument with any other character concept. Say I want to be a Bounty Hunter, that's simple enough. I chose the career, dump my xp into the talent trees and whatever skills I want, and keep it moving. From the beginning I'm pretty much a Bounty Hunter, and a effective one too even though I may still be "novice". Add in the 150 xp from "Knight Level" I'm an even better Bounty Hunter and I can call myself Bobba Fett, while a starting force user character is more or less just getting to the point of being a padawan as a lot of people in this thread have pointed out.

And again, I'm not arguing for Jedi to be ridiculously overpowered or anything. Anytime this argument comes up people right away have a knee jerk reaction to it. I'm just saying experience costs for force users seem to be a bit unreasonable and there should be ways to correct that. I think the developers are becoming aware of this since the second beta update with the mentor and holocron mechanics give some decent xp reductions.

@deepeyes: The original trilogy was about deposing the emporer, but the main protagonists are 80-90% non force sensitives (leia doesn't count really). And as an antagonist, the Emporer's force powers are basically meaningless, as his true power is never actually demonstrated (not like in ep 3, or the clone wars cartoons).

Experience costs for force users are the same as for non-force users. Why should force users have a different standard?

This is that perceptual issue. Force users have access to powers, which are unique and actually cost less in a way because there's no barrier to entry or cumulative cost for multiple powers like extra specializations. FR is the same as dedication for all intents and purposes, and they must acquire it the same way dedication is acquired.

There is no tax for force users. It is simply paying for abilities that must be acquired in the same fashion as non-force users. how is that unfair? That IMO IS balance.

EDIT: In retrospect, it is laughably irresponsible that Yoda sent Luke to confront the Emporer. He was in NO shape to make that confrontation and survive. That was an extremely risky roll of the dice to depend on the force to protect Luke, as if he had died, there would be no other Jedi ever.

Chilling thought, what if Yoda sent Luke to the death star II to die? what if in a measure, he foresaw the destruction of the fortress, and rather than risk Luke becoming a Sith, or succumbing to the darkside, was prepared to let Luke die with the emporer.

Heh heh. First the concern was that Jedi would be overwhelming when compared to other non-Force characters, now it's that they're underwhelming. Easy fix. Give your Force-users the "Knight" level starter and everyonevelse the regular one. Evdryone being the consumate role-players that they are it shouldn't be an issue.

And regardless of importance or not, it still leads to my whole argument of why do they need to be constantly gimped? If they're NOT important, then why bother with the artificial limitations? No one makes this argument with any other character concept. Say I want to be a Bounty Hunter, that's simple enough. I chose the career, dump my xp into the talent trees and whatever skills I want, and keep it moving. From the beginning I'm pretty much a Bounty Hunter, and a effective one too even though I may still be "novice". Add in the 150 xp from "Knight Level" I'm an even better Bounty Hunter and I can call myself Bobba Fett, while a starting force user character is more or less just getting to the point of being a padawan as a lot of people in this thread have pointed out.

And again, I'm not arguing for Jedi to be ridiculously overpowered or anything. Anytime this argument comes up people right away have a knee jerk reaction to it. I'm just saying experience costs for force users seem to be a bit unreasonable and there should be ways to correct that. I think the developers are becoming aware of this since the second beta update with the mentor and holocron mechanics give some decent xp reductions.

As Thebearisdriving says, XP costs are the same for Force Users as non-Force Users. You are making an assumption about what Jedi *should* be mechanically and because they are not that you view their costs are excessive. The limits are not artificial. The only thing that differentiates Force Users from non-Force Users (aside from access to "Force-only" Talents, which are mechanically no different than other Talents) is Force Powers and it makes sense that one would have to divert from training in one area in order to train in another. There is no good reason that Force Users should get inherent bonuses for being Force Users.

@deepeyes: The original trilogy was about deposing the emporer, but the main protagonists are 80-90% non force sensitives (leia doesn't count really). And as an antagonist, the Emporer's force powers are basically meaningless, as his true power is never actually demonstrated (not like in ep 3, or the clone wars cartoons).

Experience costs for force users are the same as for non-force users. Why should force users have a different standard?

This is that perceptual issue. Force users have access to powers, which are unique and actually cost less in a way because there's no barrier to entry or cumulative cost for multiple powers like extra specializations. FR is the same as dedication for all intents and purposes, and they must acquire it the same way dedication is acquired.

There is no tax for force users. It is simply paying for abilities that must be acquired in the same fashion as non-force users. how is that unfair? That IMO IS balance.

EDIT: In retrospect, it is laughably irresponsible that Yoda sent Luke to confront the Emporer. He was in NO shape to make that confrontation and survive. That was an extremely risky roll of the dice to depend on the force to protect Luke, as if he had died, there would be no other Jedi ever.

Chilling thought, what if Yoda sent Luke to the death star II to die? what if in a measure, he foresaw the destruction of the fortress, and rather than risk Luke becoming a Sith, or succumbing to the darkside, was prepared to let Luke die with the emporer.

That's a good thought experiment and interesting to consider. I mean considering even Yoda said "do not underestimate the Emperor." he knew sending Luke would be a real challenge. Then again, Yoda and Obi-wan were also very concerned with keeping the Order going so it would be strange for them to train "the last Jedi" only to sacrifice him like that unless they were sure he would prevail some way.

As to the main point of your post: I think there is a disconnect with what I'm saying and what people think I'm saying. I'm not advocating reducing cost for force users in terms of xp, like making talents cost less than what they already do. I'm just saying as a whole, a force user needs to expend a lot more xp in order to be a force user. Getting access to force powers is essentially having access to another talent tree more or less. It's not really a perceptual issue at this point because we already know what force users can do, for instance using force powers. In order for them to do it they need to expend experience points in order to get force powers, as they should. Force powers are essentially extra talent trees that are another sink of xp for a force user. And again, that is FINE. It makes sense. In order to get access to force powers or to be better at them I need to get a high force rank. Now I have to spend a lot of xp to get more force rank so I can do more force user things.

Now I'm spending a heck of a lot of xp in order to do these things. Xp which I am no longer spending on other talents, skills, getting Dedication Talent to increase characteristics, etc. Add in things like the light saber forms and the costs grow even more. I'm not saying that's not right. I'm just concerned that it's taking a lot more xp for the force using character to do these things as opposed to non force using counterparts. The bar is set a lot higher. That in itself means it's not the same standard. The standard is lower for everyone else but the force user.

Now I'm spending a heck of a lot of xp in order to do these things. Xp which I am no longer spending on other talents, skills, getting Dedication Talent to increase characteristics, etc. Add in things like the light saber forms and the costs grow even more. I'm not saying that's not right. I'm just concerned that it's taking a lot more xp for the force using character to do these things as opposed to non force using counterparts. The bar is set a lot higher. That in itself means it's not the same standard. The standard is lower for everyone else but the force user.

Now I'm spending a heck of a lot of xp in order to do these things. Xp which I am no longer spending on other talents, skills, getting Dedication Talent to increase characteristics, etc. Add in things like the light saber forms and the costs grow even more. I'm not saying that's not right. I'm just concerned that it's taking a lot more xp for the force using character to do these things as opposed to non force using counterparts. The bar is set a lot higher. That in itself means it's not the same standard. The standard is lower for everyone else but the force user.

So what you're saying is that a character has to spend more experience to do things that other characters cannot do. That sounds like proper progression to me.

Sure. The problem is that depending on what the thing is, the non force user can do it in two game sessions, while the force user can't until 10 games in. I'm being hyperbolic obviously, but I'm looking at it in the spirit of what makes a character concept actualized, the non force user can actualize it sooner than the force user can due to increased xp sink.

Ah... Agreed, the bar is high, but only because you're naming several different things to be good at. The concern that you're feeling (likely. I don't know you personally) is that you now have hard choices, that frankly, didn't really exist in EotE (because frankly, some talents and skills are simply too good not to get. but that's neither here nor there).

I want to play an artisan/shadow and focus on using misdirect as my signature ability. Maybe branch into Move. But chiefly, I want this character to primarily use blasters and vibro weapons. That's really only 2 specs. 2 powers. With 300 experience that would be a fierce character. But not a saber character. not at all.

If a character wants to be good at saber combat, investing in the appropriate spec and getting the style talent should come in under 60 xp. Throw on a couple force powers for 50-60 each, and 1 FR talent for 100xp. and 2 skills raised with 30 xp, and that's a decently advanced padawan. Asohka Tano perhaps. (I figure average 100 xp to start, and 150 for "knight level" is 250 xp total). These are generic numbers, but the difference between this and a gadgeteer bounty hunter is that the gadgeteer spent most of that starting xp on stats. So they have a higher brawn and agility, maybe even intellect, while the jedi can fling a landspeeder as an attack, or choke people to dealth, or heal w/o stims, or etc. ad infinitum, ad naeuseum.

The standard isn't lower, the options simply don't exist. and all the muggles really need to do is spec into emergent or exile and boom. they have the same options.

I never thought that Force users had the balance issues in SAGA others did, but man is this system even. Not perfect, but so even that I'm actually impressed with the foresight in design, in a way I wasn't 2 years ago.

Now I have to spend a lot of xp to get more force rank so I can do more force user things.

Force Rank greater than 1 is not actually required to be a force user. Any talent marked "Force Sensitive-only" is a force ability. The Force Power trees represent many of the flashier and more forceful (pun incidental) aspects of force use (and are considerably cheaper than the Specialization trees). But yes, just like any other character, in order to expand one aspect of your character you have to neglect others.

Sure. The problem is that depending on what the thing is, the non force user can do it in two game sessions, while the force user can't until 10 games in. I'm being hyperbolic obviously, but I'm looking at it in the spirit of what makes a character concept actualized, the non force user can actualize it sooner than the force user can due to increased xp sink.

Ok, I'm going to both agree and disagree with you here. I disagree with the premise that it takes a lot more experience to create an "effective" force user than non-force user. You can do many things with both the F&D career specs as well as force powers to have a useful starting character.

I will however agree that it may take a lot longer for your "full" character concept to be realized as a force-user vs not. This only becomes an issue if your campaigns are not suitably long enough to allow you to fully achieve your character's end-stage, and I believe probably an issue between you and your gaming group.

Ah... Agreed, the bar is high, but only because you're naming several different things to be good at. The concern that you're feeling (likely. I don't know you personally) is that you now have hard choices, that frankly, didn't really exist in EotE (because frankly, some talents and skills are simply too good not to get. but that's neither here nor there).

I want to play an artisan/shadow and focus on using misdirect as my signature ability. Maybe branch into Move. But chiefly, I want this character to primarily use blasters and vibro weapons. That's really only 2 specs. 2 powers. With 300 experience that would be a fierce character. But not a saber character. not at all.

If a character wants to be good at saber combat, investing in the appropriate spec and getting the style talent should come in under 60 xp. Throw on a couple force powers for 50-60 each, and 1 FR talent for 100xp. and 2 skills raised with 30 xp, and that's a decently advanced padawan. Asohka Tano perhaps. (I figure average 100 xp to start, and 150 for "knight level" is 250 xp total). These are generic numbers, but the difference between this and a gadgeteer bounty hunter is that the gadgeteer spent most of that starting xp on stats. So they have a higher brawn and agility, maybe even intellect, while the jedi can fling a landspeeder as an attack, or choke people to dealth, or heal w/o stims, or etc. ad infinitum, ad naeuseum.

The standard isn't lower, the options simply don't exist. and all the muggles really need to do is spec into emergent or exile and boom. they have the same options.

I never thought that Force users had the balance issues in SAGA others did, but man is this system even. Not perfect, but so even that I'm actually impressed with the foresight in design, in a way I wasn't 2 years ago.

You're sort of getting at my issues with it, though with the bounty hunter gadgeteer with the same xp wont just have spent it on starting characteristics. He'll also have branched out into other talent trees, raised skills, etc. So while he's not flinging landspeeders, he's wrecking things up in different ways. He's a more perfected and actualized bounty hunter if that is his concept.

I'll give a more concrete character concept that I take issues with and see if you can help me with it. Let's say I run a game set in the Legacy Era. If you're unfamiliar with it, it's set 100 or so years into the future after RoTJ, and it's somewhat similar in flavor to the original trilogy. The republic is out of power again after another war with the Empire, and is a mere ragtag flotilla using gureilla warfar. The empire is back in power and there are actually more Sith as this new Empire is run by them, and the Jedi order is in hiding.

Say I have a player who wants to create a former Jedi who abandoned the order during the last war in order to avoid death. He was a knight during his time with the order but got disillusioned and went into hiding. He ends up after several years on Nar Shaddaa as a night club owner, avoiding Sith, and dealing with many underworld elements to get to where he is. I run the game with this setting in mind, I've got this former human Jedi now turned night club owner, a Chiss operative who was a former Imperial spy until the Sith took over and is also now an exile from the ascendacy, and a former human republic squad leader. If we were to start with basic starting character with RAW, how could the former Jedi actualize his character? The chiss and squad leader are easy enough right? The chiss could be an ace or spy and the squad leader could be soldier or commander. What about the former Jedi ? Say he starts with Jedi Guardian, he certainly wouldn't have enough starting xp to gain enough force powers, light saber skills, and force rating to reflect any sort of significant skill he had as a former knight. He also won't have enough to branch out to say colonist to represent his new found entrepreneurship.

Say I decide then that since he's more of an "advanced character" due to his concept, I give him "Knight Level" experience. He now has an extra 150 xp to start. I still have a hard time trying to actualize a character like that. He'd maybe have a few more force powers, maybe an increased force rating, but he still doesn't feel like a full on Jedi Knight. Moreover, what if my other two players complain "Why are you giving him more xp and not us?" and I have to explain "well cause he would be a lame former Jedi Knight if not" but in the spirit of fairness I give them the same xp too. They then continue with their character concepts and the Chiss Operative now has talents in ace and spy and and the squad leader has talents in soldier and commander. They're both pretty much very capable characters with our former Jedi Knight having a hell of a time barely being able to use force abilities and deflecting shots with his saber.

Now this is all general right now, I've only played around with the concepts and xp slightly as I've been busy to really delve into FnD, but from where I'm coming from something just doesn't seem to sit right with me, you know?

I'm very much open minded to what is being said here for the most part, and I do appreciate everyone discussing this point with me as I've been bothered by it. I've been very appreciative of your posts too, Bear.