So one thing I've been thinking about is in F&D more so than the others books, is that 3 careers specializations for say a Sentinel form what a *Sentinel* should be. Take any one of the Sentinel Career Specializations by them selves and they feel lacking.

Compare this to the other books, take Ace Driver as an example from AoR. He really does not need to pick up Pilot or Gunner unless he really really wants to. But in F&D any single career feels less of a stand alone career because of how they have broken out light sabers to be a tree/career specialization of it's own.

I'm wondering if this issue would be helped/fixed by changing the price of EXP it costs to acquire Career Specializations in F&D so that if you already have one of the specializations it then becomes cheaper to acquire the others of that Career.

What I would suggest is treating any further specializations in the same Career as Universal for that character.

I sort of feel that the Jedi classes are a huge black whole of EXP, and I think adding something like this would help dampen the EXP hole, if ever so slightly.

So one thing I've been thinking about is in F&D more so than the others books, is that 3 careers specializations for say a Sentinel form what a *Sentinel* should be. Take any one of the Sentinel Career Specializations by them selves and they feel lacking. Compare this to the other books, take Ace Driver as an example from AoR. He really does not need to pick up Pilot or Gunner unless he really really wants to. But in F&D any single career feels less of a stand alone career because of how they have broken out light sabers to be a tree/career specialization of it's own. I'm wondering if this issue would be helped/fixed by changing the price of EXP it costs to acquire Career Specializations in F&D so that if you already have one of the specializations it then becomes cheaper to acquire the others of that Career. What I would suggest is treating any further specializations in the same Career as Universal for that character. I sort of feel that the Jedi classes are a huge black whole of EXP, and I think adding something like this would help dampen the EXP hole, if ever so slightly.

How is it any more of an XP hole than other classes? Each specialization represents exactly that; a specialization. Its also worth noting that the Lightsaber trees are not the only ones that contain saber-related talents. The Aggressor is an excellent example. Either way specializations are just a collection of Talents or "tricks" the character knows how to do. Being a Jedi (and these characters are not actually Jedi, by the RAW) does not actually require that one be able to reflect blaster bolts. And a starting character is maybe Padawan level. Knight level play starts at 150XP, which for most trees allows you to reach the Force Rating Talent and start into a second specialization.

So, in short, no I don't think this is a good idea. Its just going to move the game toward being exactly what people have always disliked about other Star Wars games; Be a Jedi or be irrelevant.

I have noticed that a lot of builds I want to do are cross-career, but the thing is that's just a function of the game. Not something that could be changed without changing the Core Rules of the other games as well.

But your previous bit about in-career specializations, I agree and also I think I like the feel that it gives. You're not starting out as Mr. Jedi Padawan, having just come out of Ilum with your crystal in hand and a big Jedi cruiser to pick you up. This game is something entirely different, and I think the feel of each career is very era-appropriate.

I also think that's why they standardized a "Knight-Level" option. This option is especially appropriate for those starting in Clone Wars, very-Old Republic, or New Jedi Order settings. With 150 extra XP, picking up a second specialization is a snap.

The only thing the bothers me about the specs (so far ) is the amount of overlap between the career skills and the specialization skills. They've already reduced the number of career skills and free ranks (from 8 to 6, and 4 to 3 respectively) and that's fine with me, but I would have expected more breadth. For some of them, 3 of the 4 spec skills are already part of an already narrowed career spec. I'm sure it's intentional to mitigate the "Jedi rulz" thing, but it seems somewhat artificial.

It also represents that training in the ways of the Force takes time - Time you could have spent studying picking locks or reprogramming droids.

Awayputurwpn and Gran Solo both make good points.

PCs in this game are pretty specifically noted as not being Jedi, and not benefiting from the years of training from early childhood that a Jedi Padawan received. Even Ahsoka Tano, just recently made a Padawan at the start of TCW, was far more capable than you'd expect a PC with starting XP to be. I did a Knight-level build of my namesake character that I played through the OCR and RCR and Saga Edition, and I'd say he's about on par with what a Jedi Padawan that's just come out of the Temple would be.

As for the XP costs, it's the same as the other two games, and it's really only with wanting to boost up your Force Rating or pile on the Parry and Reflect talents that the cross-career cost is more obvious. So in that respect, it's also a balancing measure, given that Force users (particularly Jedi-types) have a history of straining a rules system right up to and often past the breaking point. As much as I love Saga Edition, Jedi in that game were notorious for being extremely powerful, especially in the early stages of the game where NPC defense scores simply didn't scale well against skill check bonuses, particularly where the Skill Focus feat was concerned. And WEG had a similar problem once a Force user got their Force skills up to a certain threshold where they could reliably met the assigned difficulties, since by that point the Force user had a plethora of powers to call upon given how WEG tied "power effects known" with the three Force skills.

Feels like they really shouldn't have the lightsaber styles as actual careers, better they used that third option for something else and have the lightsaber styles be talent trees maybe universal specialisations instead.

Looking at the pre-gens provided with the Beta I'm left wondering why they went knight or near knight level with these?

If I want to play epic I'd buy the Epic Handbook and I don't play epic I actually want to learn how to create a Force User properly and whilst I've only take a close look at the Soresu Defender whose lacking at least three talents (Toughened, grit and Soresu whatever its called!) he appears to should have can someone explain to me why they're not using narrative dice with their force powers?

Sorry probably the wrong thread for this can anyone point me towards the one that covers such things at least any questions about the pre-gens at the very least?

Regarding the pre-gens, they were written for use at GenCon, and from prior Star Wars modules all the PCs in those adventures start with 100 bonus XP and plenty of additional gear. Said pre-gens are written as one-shot characters, and quite likely are not going to be played again after that one adventure, so you want them to be tougher and more capable than a typical PC with starting XP.

I've not had a chance to take an in-depth look at the pre-gens that game with the AoR Beta, but I think they were created with starting XP. Could be that FFG figured that as they were running a bunch of FaD modules both in the game room and as demos in the Exhibitor Hall it was just easier on their part to use the same characters for the FaD Beta pre-gens.

Thanks i was worried this was a sign this last beta was an attempt at high level play ignoring those of us who actually liked the last two betas.

Any idea why they're not using narrative dice with force powers?

Any idea why they're not using narrative dice with force powers?

Except in the cases of opposed rolls or targeting, it is just Force dice as it was in both other core books. I imagine they wanted to keep it as the same mechanics as they started with.

Thanks i was worried this was a sign this last beta was an attempt at high level play ignoring those of us who actually liked the last two betas.

Any idea why they're not using narrative dice with force powers?

As mouthymerc said, the basic structure of how Force powers operate was laid out in Edge of the Empire, in that for most effects, you simply roll a Force die and see if you generate the necessary Force points, with Move and Influence having specific exceptions that require a Discipline check. This same system was used for Age of Rebellion as well, though with a slightly different set of powers.

Since Force and Destiny is meant to be used alongside EotE and AoR as well as function on its own, it makes sense that FFG would keep the already established mechanics for Force usage, particularly as it's not introducing anything new in terms of the rest of the core system mechanics, such as how combat checks work or range bands or the skill lists, and those mechanics have already been pretty well tested and found to work for the vast majority of folks playing this game.

Any idea why they're not using narrative dice with force powers?

The ability to roll a Triumph is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

Thanks i was worried this was a sign this last beta was an attempt at high level play ignoring those of us who actually liked the last two betas.

Any idea why they're not using narrative dice with force powers?

Because the force die play into the concept of the darkside is quicker easier. But the lightside is stronger. There are 7 darkside faces and 5 lightside faces but the same number of lightside pips as darkside pips.

And the narrative dice do play a part. many abilities use the narrative dice. Like for example enhance adds your force rating to certain skill roles.

Discipline is also used for a lot of abilities.

Also, it specifically states in the side bar (or right before the powers) that any player targeted by a power that doesn't allow a opposed check may opt to do so. As GM I would also call for an opposed check when using powers against (most) any NPC that had ranks in adversary, as they represent a cut above the norm.

So the dice play in, just by default they went for something a little more streamlined.

So one thing I've been thinking about is in F&D more so than the others books, is that 3 careers specializations for say a Sentinel form what a *Sentinel* should be. Take any one of the Sentinel Career Specializations by them selves and they feel lacking. Compare this to the other books, take Ace Driver as an example from AoR. He really does not need to pick up Pilot or Gunner unless he really really wants to. But in F&D any single career feels less of a stand alone career because of how they have broken out light sabers to be a tree/career specialization of it's own.

I have to say I agree with this. I'm not bothered by the XP sink, because I feel like it helps to exemplify what a long and arduous road it is to be a Jedi...anything less and I'd feel like I was cheating. But it does seem like you can't really call yourself even a Padawan without having dipped into at least all three career specs, and a Knight would need to have at least maxed those, and have one other non-career spec that is *not* from F&D (say a Scholar or Politico or...).

I agree with Whafrog.

While i inderstand and appreciate the xp sink way to build a Jedi i beleive that the problem with the various specializations is that they have vastly different xp costs to get to the Force Rating talent, i think it goes form about +65 to well over 100.

And a Jedi also has to spend xp on Force power to get the usefulness of his Force Rating, and those are more xp not spent on specializations talents.

I thin kthat such a way to build a Jedi works very well if you want to simulate an Old republiv jedi who had a lifelong training, but for a Rebellion Era it's extremely diffcult to build aprorper or even vaguely capable Jedi. Even with knight-level play: if you give just 150 xp the character will have to choose to either have combat capabilites with the lightsaber, or working force powers or a higher than 1 Force rating, you can't have all three as it should be the case.

Even with knight-level play: if you give just 150 xp the character will have to choose to either have combat capabilites with the lightsaber, or working force powers or a higher than 1 Force rating, you can't have all three as it should be the case.

They should rename it "Youngling Level Play", it might be more accurate

Even with knight-level play: if you give just 150 xp the character will have to choose to either have combat capabilites with the lightsaber, or working force powers or a higher than 1 Force rating, you can't have all three as it should be the case.

They should rename it "Youngling Level Play", it might be more accurate

In this context "Knight Level Play" just means "has a lightsaber".

Just to play devil's advocate, the same could be said for bounty hunters though.

Playing a well built bounty hunter (or hired gun, or soldier, or scholar, etc) actually requires a lot more experience than what even a knight level play can provide.

The difference, IMO, is that we have as a fan base an inflated sense of what a jedi SHOULD be capable of, and how that should be reflected in the game.

Time and time again in the CloneWars, series, and in Ep2, we see situations of how muggles triumph over force users of approximately equal standing (I'm thinking cad bane, jango v obi wan). Other times the match ups are as one sided as ventress v boba or annikin v Baris (sorry if that spoiled anything).

Perception plays a big part, and I think this is the other side of the coin to how Edge was designed. 2 years ago people lauded the focus on being average joe citizen in a galaxy far far away, because it felt more real.. Now that Jedi have to play by the same rules (figuratively and literally) it feels false. Why? because all jedi should automatically be better? No... it's because it forces people to make a choice at being good at one thing at a time initially, and yet we have these iconic images of jedi that are good at everything. It challenges our perception of what the actual arc and path of jedi are.

If you haven't read the clone wars book with a Jedi initiate named scout, I recommend it. Even if you don't want to read the book, check it out on wookiepedia. Scout is what I imagine is the type of character made with FaD, and provides a much more realistic expectation for what we should expect to be playing.

EDIT: after looking up Scout on Wookiepedia, the actual character name is Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy. I figure that might make it easier to find this character.

@bear: links to wiki/amazon? Google search phrase?

Please.

;-j

I would, but My computer and this forum have a fundamental disagreement. I can't quote, copy/paste, or even insert a link.

However, I looked up the character's real name, which should make it easy to find her on starwars.wikia.com

I edited my previous post, but also here, her real first name is tallisibeth.

Zayne Carrick is another wonderful example of a starting Force User

Just to play devil's advocate, the same could be said for bounty hunters though.

I wouldn't say so. The average PC of any stripe is going to be more potent than the average type of people that are "wanted", and they can easily grow into more and more risky challenges.

2 years ago people lauded the focus on being average joe citizen in a galaxy far far away, because it felt more real.. Now that Jedi have to play by the same rules (figuratively and literally) it feels false. Why? because all jedi should automatically be better? No...

I'd say "Yes" to that. Out of quintillions of citizens, only a few dozen thousand are Jedi. They only emerge from their Temple cocoon fully metamorphosed. So by the time they are really Jedi, they really *are* better. That's not a fan thing, that's just what's obvious from the media and the mythology. That's the whole point of their existence.

The nice thing about F&D is that it doesn't presume the existence of the Temple or any of those social constructs, so you can start the whole journey as an independent adult of modest capabilities and a more mundane background. But if you did want to play in an Old Republic setting you'd have to start pretty high up, or scale down the opposition considerably. 150XP just isn't going to cut it.

And again, it's a perceptual challenge. I agree whole heartedly that "knight level" is definitely a misnomer, in that you are certainly not a jedi knight at that level. you actually are probably about ready to become a padawan. Asohka Tano, or Kaosoe's mention of Zayne Carrick are good examples, when they are first introduced. Even then, Asohka is pretty darn strong, and she was assigned to Annikin, so she's likely a cut above the rest.

I guess I just see this schism in thinking. No one expects to be Boba Fett with 150xp. but many expect to be Adi Gallia, or Ayla Secura, or etc.

I agree with what you say, but I don't think the common board poster supports this thinking, because they think of Luke at the end of RotJ, not Luke at the beginning of Empire, and those are two vastly different characters, in terms of xp.

Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy

That's a mouthful.