Is it that the HSF specifically had Han (with VI) in order to win the initiative bid, while the Fat Falcon is a tanky Falcon with the title card and C-3P0, or are there more precise definitions?

No that's pretty much it.

Hsf also has two escorts (rookies) and was a list title, fat falcon is a build meant to maximize the durability of the falcon and can be a part of many lists.

HSF killed Greedo FAT HAN killed to many cheese buggers

Sorry couldn't help my self I'll go now

The main difference is that HSF ran marksmanship with a couple x-wing or B-Wing escorts rather than z95s

VI on Han used to serve little to no purpose, other EPTs were better suited and higher PS was a regime of diminished returns.

Marksmanship + gunner was the clear top choice to give an offensive focus equivalent that's applicable to all four potential rolls.

Determination was sometimes seen, to protect that pilot ability.

Then Whisper+ACD came, and suddenly being able to reach or, even better, exceed PS9 meant a lot more than it used to.

HSF has two X-wing or B-wing escorts. Fat Han has Z-95s.

As mentioned HSF is often seen as the squad name although Fat Han is getting there. As far as the "difference" is concerned I'd say there isn't one except that FH is using more recent upgrades.

HSF has two X-wing or B-wing escorts. Fat Han has Z-95s.

That's an interesting qualification, because it means (for example) that this is not a Fat Falcon build:

Han Solo (46)

Gunner (5)

C-3PO (3)

Millennium Falcon (1)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

And neither is this:

Han Solo (46)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Gunner (5)

C-3PO (3)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Millennium Falcon (1)

Biggs Darklighter (25)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I think that's how a lot of people would define it. But I'm pretty sure the people who are irritated by Fat Falcons now would definitely be irritated by that second list.

***

Personally, the definition I'd use would be something like this: HSF is handle for any list that uses a single named Falcon with lots of upgrades, plus 2-3 relatively inexpensive escort fighters. Falcons in HSF might cost as little as 44 (Chewie + Draw Their Fire + Millennium Falcon, with one or more of the escorts upgraded substantially) but typically top out at 58 points, after which you used to be down to only a single escort.

A Fat Falcon is essentially a Wave 4.5 update of HSF, typically including C-3PO, and typically spend more like 59-64 points on Han, specifically.

I think Double Falcon, Falcon+Outrider, and Falcon + 1 escort all differ substantially enough to deserve monikers of their own.

Each progressive answer gets further from the answer, which was roughly summed up at the beginning.

HSF is a list type with Han+Gunner and some upgrades, and usually 2 X-Wings.

A fat Falcon is any tanky falcon, almost always with C-3PO and MF title.

You could have a HSF list with a Fat Falcon in it.

All I know is with chardon refit awings fat Falcons have gotten stronger. I really like vorpals first build and this list and I'm not sure which is truly better. Maybe the Han version because of all the phantoms popularity.

Chewbacca (42)

Gunner (5)

C-3PO (3)

Predator (3)

Anti pursuit lasers (2)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Total: 100

And

Han Solo (46)

Gunner (5)

C-3PO (3)

Millennium Falcon (1)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Total: 100

HSF has two X-wing or B-wing escorts. Fat Han has Z-95s.

That's an interesting qualification, because it means (for example) that this is not a Fat Falcon build: Han Solo (46) Gunner (5) C-3PO (3) Millennium Falcon (1) Prototype Pilot (17) Chardaan Refit (-2) Prototype Pilot (17) Chardaan Refit (-2) Prototype Pilot (17) Chardaan Refit (-2) Total: 100 View in Yet Another Squad Builder And neither is this: Han Solo (46) Veteran Instincts (1) Gunner (5) C-3PO (3) Engine Upgrade (4) Millennium Falcon (1) Biggs Darklighter (25) Prototype Pilot (17) Chardaan Refit (-2) Total: 100 View in Yet Another Squad Builder I'm not saying you're wrong, because I think that's how a lot of people would define it. But I'm pretty sure the people who are irritated by Fat Falcons now would definitely be irritated by that second list.***Personally, the definition I'd use would be something like this: HSF is handle for any list that uses a single named Falcon with lots of upgrades, plus 2-3 relatively inexpensive escort fighters. Falcons in HSF might cost as little as 44 (Chewie + Draw Their Fire + Millennium Falcon, with one or more of the escorts upgraded substantially) but typically top out at 58 points, after which you used to be down to only a single escort.A Fat Falcon is essentially a Wave 4.5 update of HSF, typically including C-3PO, and typically spend more like 59-64 points on Han, specifically.I think Double Falcon, Falcon+Outrider, and Falcon + 1 escort all differ substantially enough to deserve monikers of their own.

I can't possibly agree with any definition that allows any pilot other than Han to be the falcon pilot in HAN shoots first. The "spirit" of HSF is that the Falcon did reliable damage through the combination of Han's ability and Gunner, so without that I don't think you have HSF.

Other than that - yes.

No that's pretty much it.

...

It's EU + C3PO + Luke

The EPT is personal preference.

The engine upgrade is key to a Fat Han.

Named builds are specific to all the cards in the build.

HSF:

Han Solo

Marksmanship

gunner

Rookie x-wing x2

comes in at 96 and I can't remember the other 4 points in the build, but this is the base of HSF

Fat Han:

Han Solo

C3P0

M.F.

Luke

E.U.

Tala x 3

100 pts

I can't possibly agree with any definition that allows any pilot other than Han to be the falcon pilot in HAN shoots first.

Yeah, but that means that Chewie + 2x Blue Squadron (which lots of people, including me, called Bluebacca) isn't an HSF list. Maybe that's okay, but if I take your viewpoint then Bluebacca deserves separate acknowledgement the same way Fat Falcon does.

HSF:

Han Solo

Marksmanship

gunner

Rookie x-wing x2

comes in at 96 and I can't remember the other 4 points in the build, but this is the base of HSF

Typically Chewbacca.

HSF was around long before C-3P0. With the Tantive's release, those two became best friends and went from a super offensive list to a super defensive Falcon.

and typically spend more like 59-64 points on Han, specifically.

I'd say that any Falcon that you spend 55+ points on makes it a Fat Han list.

HSF was around long before C-3P0. With the Tantive's release, those two became best friends and went from a super offensive list to a super defensive Falcon.

On average Threepio isn't much more effective than the Chewbacca crew card. (That is, because Threepio is a probabilistic effect and Chewie saves you from a flat 2 damage, a Falcon needs to survive at least four rounds of attacks in order for Threepio to be worth more than Chewie at least half the time.)

Threepio is a bit cheaper, which helps, and Threepio can also be used when Chewbacca is flying the Falcon. But the change from HSF to Fat Falcon was not the release of Threepio but rather the release of the Headhunter, which allows you to spend up to 64 points without compromising your escorts, rather than being limited to 58.

and typically spend more like 59-64 points on Han, specifically.

I'd say that any Falcon that you spend 55+ points on makes it a Fat Han list.

But the "canon" HSF is 58: Han Solo (42) + Marksmanship (3) + Gunner (5) + Chewbacca (4), which means it would be retrospectively a Fat Falcon list, which means the answer to Mikael's question would be "there isn't a difference".

Vorpal is correct the current overpower fat falcon doesn't come into play until the mini swarm was added. Rebel aces just makes that mini swarm better.

But the "canon" HSF is 58: Han Solo (42) + Marksmanship (3) + Gunner (5) + Chewbacca (4), which means it would be retrospectively a Fat Falcon list

Fair point

So does that make Fat Han a Han solo w/3-CPO and 58+ points spent on it? Does it need EU? Are we starting to get a bit carried away with classifying what a Fat Han is?

I mean a lot of the above posts are simply wrong. The escort is not the main issue, it's what you do to Han.

Vorpal is correct the current overpower fat falcon doesn't come into play until the mini swarm was added. Rebel aces just makes that mini swarm better.

I'm pretty sure we've been over this. Fat Falcon, using my own definition of 59-64 points on a Falcon plus 2-3 escort fighters, is more powerful than older Falcon builds because you spend more on it. That doesn't make it overpowered--if you spend more points on the centerpiece of your list, that piece ought to be more powerful.

And three ships isn't a mini swarm.

And Rebel Aces offers absolutely nothing to a Fat Falcon build because you can't afford to run three A-wings while still adding a bunch of tricks to the Falcon. I suspect Han + 3x Prototype and Chewie + 3x Prototype will both be perfectly viable builds, but if you use Han you're limited to 9 points of upgrades--fewer points than the old, supposedly less overpowered HSF used. If you use Chewie, you can afford three Prototypes plus an extra four points of upgrades for the Falcon, but you lose firepower and pilot skill (which is important in the post-Phantom game).

I can't possibly agree with any definition that allows any pilot other than Han to be the falcon pilot in HAN shoots first.

Yeah, but that means that Chewie + 2x Blue Squadron (which lots of people, including me, called Bluebacca) isn't an HSF list. Maybe that's okay, but if I take your viewpoint then Bluebacca deserves separate acknowledgement the same way Fat Falcon does.

HSF:

Han Solo

Marksmanship

gunner

Rookie x-wing x2

comes in at 96 and I can't remember the other 4 points in the build, but this is the base of HSF

Typically Chewbacca.

I remembered that later on in the day.

Vorpal is correct the current overpower fat falcon doesn't come into play until the mini swarm was added. Rebel aces just makes that mini swarm better.

I'm pretty sure we've been over this. Fat Falcon, using my own definition of 59-64 points on a Falcon plus 2-3 escort fighters, is more powerful than older Falcon builds because you spend more on it. That doesn't make it overpowered--if you spend more points on the centerpiece of your list, that piece ought to be more powerful.And three ships isn't a mini swarm.And Rebel Aces offers absolutely nothing to a Fat Falcon build because you can't afford to run three A-wings while still adding a bunch of tricks to the Falcon. I suspect Han + 3x Prototype and Chewie + 3x Prototype will both be perfectly viable builds, but if you use Han you're limited to 9 points of upgrades--fewer points than the old, supposedly less overpowered HSF used. If you use Chewie, you can afford three Prototypes plus an extra four points of upgrades for the Falcon, but you lose firepower and pilot skill (which is important in the post-Phantom game).

You don't need nor want a massive amount of points dumped in the falcon. The gain in defense and movement on your support ships outweighs the cost of situational upgrades. I think you enjoying just arguing and can't admit when you are clearly wrong. 7 months ago you argued how fat falcon builds were only an option and were not any better then hsf. I ended the discussion with let's just wait and see who is right. 7 months later that build starts winning the majority of tournaments with constant complaints on the forum and you still use the same worthless argument it's not better it's just options. You really need to learn how to analyze a squad as a whole instead of comparing individual abilities in a vacuum.

You can keep claiming fat falcons aren't more powerful then hsf builds all you want you were wrong 7 months ago and still wrong now.

Don't think we had fat falcons 7 months ago...

But no where did VS ever say they weren't more powerful, then the older HSF. He said that the falcon was more powerful then the one in the HSF because you spent more points on it.

You can keep claiming fat falcons aren't more powerful then hsf builds all you want you were wrong 7 months ago and still wrong now.

Don't think we had fat falcons 7 months ago...But no where did VS ever say they weren't more powerful, then the older HSF. He said that the falcon was more powerful then the one in the HSF because you spent more points on it.