So from my understanding from reading through the beginner game, almost all of the rolls the GM makes should be in view of the other players.
Is that what you guys do?
Do this ever cause problems for you as a GM?
I think it would be more exciting for the players to see what's happening when someone is attacking them.
What are your thoughts and preferences on rolling your dice in view of the players?
Up until recently, I didn't have a GM screen, so virtually all of my rolls were done in plain view. That experience, however, has given me a healthy respect for the ability to hide rolls.
I'm about to start my first ever time being the GM. I have the screen. Just feeling for what others do.
This is a commonly asked, but legitimate, question. If you have the time you might scan for other threads.
I haven't hidden a single roll since I started playing when EotE first came out. There is a refreshing freedom in leaving it all open, and I feel like it encourages better roleplaying. There have been some rare occasions where the players might end up "knowing" something their characters shouldn't, but that's been easily dealt with, and the players have been good about dealing with it creatively.
There is also the philosophical question of why make any secret rolls at all? If the rolls are secret, the players don't know what you rolled, so why not just do what you want and avoid the charade? I think most of the time the real reason GMs want to roll secretly is so they can control the outcome of an encounter, i.e.: if it's going poorly for the PCs they can pretend to miss, or if it's going too smoothly they can get some good hits in. There's this tacit understanding to maintain the illusion of impartiality that doesn't really exist. But the way this game is structured, especially since it's hard to get a fatality on the PCs, none of that is necessary.
The main trick is, when possible, it's the players who are doing the rolling. If an NPC is trying to sneak up on the PCs, the PCs are rolling for Perception against the NPC's Stealth, rather than the NPC rolling their Stealth against the PC's Perception. If an NPC is lying to the PCs, the PCs can roll their Discipline against the NPCs Deception, rather than the NPC rolling their Deception against the PC's Discipline. 99% of the time these types of rolls can be done by the PC.
Now that said, there are some dice I roll behind the screen. These are dice I use for when the players need information I didn't plan for, like where the nearest bakery is or who the shop owner is and how he feels today about life under Imperial rule. These dice are more just narrative prompts for my own purposes.
Now that said, there are some dice I roll behind the screen. These are dice I use for when the players need information I didn't plan for, like where the nearest bakery is or who the shop owner is and how he feels today about life under Imperial rule. These dice are more just narrative prompts for my own purposes.
For myself, I tend to hide Perception rolls. Unless my players are specifically saying they're looking around without me prompting, I'll note their various investigative skills and roll them myself, then tell them what they happen upon. For the most part, my players like this, as it preserves the narrative aspect.
I only hide rolls where a negative result, or even just making a roll, gives away as much or more information than a positive result would, and most of those rolls will be only the negative dice so that the Player could have some idea as to how well they rolled but still not be sure. An example would be some Perception rolls.
Honestly I don't feel like I have to do it that often but when I do it's to add tension to the scene so theres a bigger pay-off. If it's not going to add to the scene I don't bother.
Edited by FuriousGregThere is never a need for secret rolls. Ever.
If the Players can't keep IC and OOC information separate they need to start learning.
Also in many games (this one as well) making rolls secretly strips the Players of the ability to use the means at their disposal to alter the outcome of the roll, in this games case by spending Destiny Tokens. That should always be a no-no.
The main trick is, when possible, it's the players who are doing the rolling. If an NPC is trying to sneak up on the PCs, the PCs are rolling for Perception against the NPC's Stealth, rather than the NPC rolling their Stealth against the PC's Perception. If an NPC is lying to the PCs, the PCs can roll their Discipline against the NPCs Deception, rather than the NPC rolling their Deception against the PC's Discipline. 99% of the time these types of rolls can be done by the PC.
It's true that you can roll the PC's skill versus the NPC's skill or vice versa (mechanically speaking, there's almost no difference). However, the examples you just quoted are precisely the sort where the rolls should, ideally, be performed in secret.
If an NPC is attempting to sneak up on a PC, then by rolling in the open you clearly and unambiguously announce, "There is an NPC here who is attempting to sneak up on your character." Since the PC - and by extension the player - obviously shouldn't know this, it's best to perform the roll in secret. Otherwise, even if the NPC wins the roll the player still knows the NPC is there.
For instance, if an NPC is attempting to secretly tail a PC in order to see where he goes, eavesdrop on his conversations, and so forth, then you certainly don't want the player to be aware of this. Yet if you perform the roll publicly, then the player himself is automatically aware of the NPC's presence, regardless of whether the PC manages to spot the tail.
There is never a need for secret rolls. Ever.
If the Players can't keep IC and OOC information separate they need to start learning.
Not to sound rude; but that's a naively oversimplified version of the situation.
Having players who are mature enough not to deliberately misuse out-of-character information does not solve the problem of out-of-character information. It "masks" the problem, but it doesn't solve it.
Firstly, it's very difficult to completely remove the influence of out-of-character information from your behaviour, even if you try. If, as imagined above, you know that your character is "secretly" being observed, it's very difficult to avoid unconsciously altering your behaviour in response. In fact, sometimes you even get the opposite effect of players "overcompensating" to prove that they aren't using the out-of-character information to cheat. You might well, for example, see a player in this situation deliberately have his character speak about important things he wouldn't want someone to overhear, just to prove he's not cheating. The point being, he probably wouldn't have said those things at all if he didn't know that he was "secretly" being observed. If he hadn't known, he'd have just acted naturally.
And secondly, it's a lot less fun as a player to pretend not to know something and to try to act as if you don't than to actually not know it. Any time a PC is supposed to be unaware of a certain fact, the player is going to have more fun simply not knowing and behaving as he naturally would than he will trying to consciously "edit" his behaviour to pretend that he doesn't know.
Secret rolls, when appropriate, tend to actually make the game more fun for players by helping to keep them unaware when they should be unaware. It's more fun to actually not know something and attempt to figure it out in-character.
If an NPC is attempting to sneak up on a PC, then by rolling in the open you clearly and unambiguously announce, "There is an NPC here who is attempting to sneak up on your character." Since the PC - and by extension the player - obviously shouldn't know this, it's best to perform the roll in secret. Otherwise, even if the NPC wins the roll the player still knows the NPC is there.
If they succeed they get told what their characters have now spotted, the sneaking up NPC. If they all fail, they are told nothing.
But by rolling in secret you strip them of the ability to use Narrative effects, which this system is built around. You strip of flipping a Destiny to improve the odds of success in their favor. You also treat them as though they aren't capable of keeping compartmentalized.
For instance, if an NPC is attempting to secretly tail a PC in order to see where he goes, eavesdrop on his conversations, and so forth, then you certainly don't want the player to be aware of this. Yet if you perform the roll publicly, then the player himself is automatically aware of the NPC's presence, regardless of whether the PC manages to spot the tail.
Not to sound rude; but that's a naively oversimplified version of the situation.
They don't. They're there to write the story along side you. Treat them as co-conspirators and they'll conspire themselves into all kinds off terrible trouble just fine.
Firstly, it's very difficult to completely remove the influence of out-of-character information from your behaviour, even if you try.
I keep OOC and IC info separate, It's not hard once you get into the practice (and keep practicing). Have a firm grasp on the character, their desires, their methods of acting, their "voice" so to speak. Then have them act as they wold with the information they are supposed to have.
Let me pose you a question:
I presume your NPCs don't act on information they don't have, do they? Your NPCs act appropriately to the situation, yes?
Now why do you think it's so much harder for Players to separate IC and OOC than it is for you?
I won;t argue that there are Players that aren't very good at it, but stop treating them like they're developmentally challenged. If you treat them like they're capable, and ask them to be capable, they'll get there.
And secondly, it's a lot less fun as a player to pretend not to know something and to try to act as if you don't than to actually not know it. Any time a PC is supposed to be unaware of a certain fact, the player is going to have more fun simply not knowing and behaving as he naturally would than he will trying to consciously "edit" his behaviour to pretend that he doesn't know.
Secret rolls, when appropriate, tend to actually make the game more fun for players by helping to keep them unaware when they should be unaware. It's more fun to actually not know something and attempt to figure it out in-character.
I prefer to know and to pretend otherwise. For me that's more fun. My Rogues blissfully continue robbing even if I know they're being watched, conmen keep conning even if I know they've been caught, etc. I enjoy the acting.
Now, if your players prefer the suspense of not knowing then so be it. But keep in mind, secret rolls strip them of participating in the roll and this system is not designed with that as it's basis.
Side note: I'm guessing you're not in favor of the old WEG NPC Cutscenes?
I am with overmatt on this one. I also experienced players to overcompensate when they know of certain things that go on in the background.
Other than that i also see the issue that upgrading checks with destiny points becomes a problem when checks are rolled secretly. But this isn't much of a problem on my table, as my players tend to use their points when they know it will matter and not for a random perception check. So no big deal here.
I and as far as i can tell my players as well, find it incredibly fun to roll the negative side of a check secretly. Thus providing a part of the information. It creates definetely more tension in those situations. Alse this will adress the problem with destiny points. Players that like to upgrade those kind of chcks can do so by getting an additional yellow dice.
I roll in the open. I have a GM screen near me, mainly for Critical Hit charts, but I keep it flat.
I'll ask for a Perception check and my players are mature enough to take it at face value if they fail a roll (or if they get a Despair or something like that) and not meta-game too much.
One factor which makes this game different from, for example, D&D, is the Destiny Point system. Players have the option to flip Destiny Points to improve their chances on rolls. I like to give my players that option, even if it's to detect something that might be secret unless they discover it.
The main trick is, when possible, it's the players who are doing the rolling. If an NPC is trying to sneak up on the PCs, the PCs are rolling for Perception against the NPC's Stealth, rather than the NPC rolling their Stealth against the PC's Perception. If an NPC is lying to the PCs, the PCs can roll their Discipline against the NPCs Deception, rather than the NPC rolling their Deception against the PC's Discipline. 99% of the time these types of rolls can be done by the PC.
It's true that you can roll the PC's skill versus the NPC's skill or vice versa (mechanically speaking, there's almost no difference). However, the examples you just quoted are precisely the sort where the rolls should, ideally, be performed in secret.
If an NPC is attempting to sneak up on a PC, then by rolling in the open you clearly and unambiguously announce, "There is an NPC here who is attempting to sneak up on your character." Since the PC - and by extension the player - obviously shouldn't know this, it's best to perform the roll in secret. Otherwise, even if the NPC wins the roll the player still knows the NPC is there.
Completely disagree. I've heard this many times before (because this subject keeps coming up) and it's no more convincing now than the first time. Believe me, non-secret rolls work *just fine* for this situation. I'm not sure what the difference is anyway: I play as a player in other (non-EotE) games, and the old joke is that the minute the GM is rolling, everybody knows something is up. Why bother?
I came from 30 years of "secret rolling" because that's how we all did it, and it's BS. It took maybe half a session of non-secret rolling in EotE to change my mind. Secret rolling is completely unnecessary, and non-secret rolling is extremely liberating. All it requires is the slightest shift in mindset.
I would also question why you would need to have the NPC roll anything at all. Just MHO, but it seems to me it's a waste of time to inject randomness where it's not necessary. The story and all the characters in it move along as the GM decides. It's only when something happens that allows the players to change the course that rolls should be made. And when that happens, then the PC gets to roll.
Anyway, if you're really concerned about players reading too much into you making them roll for something, there is a swift antidote that you should only have to do once (I had to do it in two successive sessions, but never since): make them roll Perception when nothing is there. When they succeed, you can tell them they are absolutely certain they are not being followed or noticed in any way. If they're mature players, they'll get the point you made, and maybe rise to the occasion of not using assumed player knowledge to drive their character's actions, which can only lead to better roleplay.
If you pick the right time to roll dice then you can remove metagaming from the equation as the players will be dealing with the effect of the roll not the cause.
Unlike my prior GM'ed games, I like to keep my Edge of the Empire rolls out in the open. The only time I roll behind the screen is when there's something going on that I don't want the players to be aware of yet. But I'd say 95% of the rolls go out in the open so everyone can join in the excitement of seeing how the rolls shake out.
all rolls in the public eye.
i assemble the pool as i describe the scene.
then the players and i collaborate on narrating the results.
If you pick the right time to roll dice then you can remove metagaming from the equation as the players will be dealing with the effect of the roll not the cause.
all rolls in the public eye.
i assemble the pool as i describe the scene.
then the players and i collaborate on narrating the results.
I find that attitude to be mildly insulting. Just mildly.
I find your entire post to be mildly insulting, aggressive, presumptuous, condescending, dismissive, elitist, and self-important. Just mildly.
I find your entire post to be mildly insulting, aggressive, presumptuous, condescending, dismissive, elitist, and self-important. Just mildly.
the old joke is that the minute the GM is rolling, everybody knows something is up. Why bother?
Well it's certainly true that a sudden and unexpected roll can indicate that something may be up; but this is a bit of a strawman.
Telling the player, "Roll X versus Y" conveys a lot of information. Rolling unknown dice behind the screen for an unknown reason conveys extremely little information beyond "Maybe something is happening." So saying that secret rolling is pointless because the players will just know what it means anyway is obviously an exaggeration.
Plus, as you later suggest, even this can be minimised by the occasional "false" roll of misdirection. I will indeed, from time to time, assemble a random handful of dice and roll them behind the screen for no reason other than to downplay the tendency to assume that my rolling dice always means something.
I would also question why you would need to have the NPC roll anything at all. Just MHO, but it seems to me it's a waste of time to inject randomness where it's not necessary. The story and all the characters in it move along as the GM decides. It's only when something happens that allows the players to change the course that rolls should be made. And when that happens, then the PC gets to roll.
I see what you're getting at - "If you aren't going to involve the players in the roll, then why roll at all? Why not just declare the outcome you, the GM, want and avoid unnecessary randomness?"
I understand your idea; but I wouldn't personally want to do that in the sorts of situations I'm describing. Rolls in secret are still rolls like any other - cases where the GM has decided that randomness, and not merely his own wishes, should determine the outcome. e.g. The PC should have a fair chance, based on his skills and such, to detect (or fail to detect) that he is being followed; even though the player shouldn't know that his PC is being given a chance to detect that he is being followed.
Hence the secret roll rather than the flat declaration of the outcome. The outcome is based on the dice, like any other roll, but the roll is performed privately to maintain the secrecy of information that the PC (and by extension the player) ideally shouldn't have.
I find your entire post to be mildly insulting, aggressive, presumptuous, condescending, dismissive, elitist, and self-important. Just mildly.
Oh, and it's also naive, like I said before. Just mildly.
I'm just curious if you've tried a full session of non-secret rolling, or if this is just an academic exercise for you. I've played the way you do for decades, so I know where you're coming from...in fact there are probably early posts of mine on these boards expressing doubts about non-secret rolling. All I can say is it was liberating to make the shift and I haven't looked back. Give it a whirl...
Oh, and it's also naive, like I said before. Just mildly.
Let me pose you a question:
I presume your NPCs don't act on information they don't have, do they? Your NPCs act appropriately to the situation, yes?
Now why do you think it's so much harder for Players to separate IC and OOC than it is for you?
You asked me several questions, including some legitimate and relevant ones. I could respond to all of them; but I've ignored them because you were rude.
Let me pose you a question:
I presume your NPCs don't act on information they don't have, do they? Your NPCs act appropriately to the situation, yes?
Now why do you think it's so much harder for Players to separate IC and OOC than it is for you?
However this particular question isn't even relevant. In addition to missing the point of this discussion, it's also mildly insulting, aggressive, presumptuous, condescending, and dismissive.
It doesn't warrant an answer. That would be a waste of my time and yours.
Unless you politely ask something relevant, I won't respond again.
I'm just curious if you've tried a full session of non-secret rolling, or if this is just an academic exercise for you. I've played the way you do for decades, so I know where you're coming from...in fact there are probably early posts of mine on these boards expressing doubts about non-secret rolling. All I can say is it was liberating to make the shift and I haven't looked back. Give it a whirl...
Well I admit that I do enjoy the armchair "academics" of such debates.
But yes, I have experimented with letting the players roll things I would normally keep secret. However, I've never personally gotten the impression that the advantages of this outweigh the disadvantages.
The disadvantages are, as I've described, significant and substantial. The players end up with a lot of information they shouldn't have, and then need to try to "edit" their behaviour to avoid acting on it.
And the advantages you gain by open rolling are, as far as I can see, pretty small:
On the one hand, if a group of players really loves rolling dice then maybe they'll find it more fun to roll everything themselves? I suppose this might be true; but unless they really, really love rolling dice, then is a minor gain.
The one big benefit seems to be that it eliminates any questions of trust between the players and the GM - "Did he really roll the result he claimed he did? Is he ever lying to us?" This might be significant for some groups; but I've never personally experienced such trust issues in any games I've run or played in. Not enough that I would consider it to be worth making a lot of information unnecessarily public just to avoid it.
If you've found some extra benefit beyond these, I'd be interested in hearing it.
So from my understanding from reading through the beginner game, almost all of the rolls the GM makes should be in view of the other players.
Is that what you guys do?
Do this ever cause problems for you as a GM?
I think it would be more exciting for the players to see what's happening when someone is attacking them.
What are your thoughts and preferences on rolling your dice in view of the players?
Since I have been running EotE I don't think I have done a hidden roll yet. In this system I don't feel the need to. In Saga, heck yeah, I had too. With one roll you could kill a PC, and the rest of the party could quickly fall apart...Anyway i digress about how much i loath that system...
For Edge, I really like the openness of the rolling. I feel this system and this way really helps to dissolve the feeling of "me vs you" that a lot of gamers have built over time. Some players recently told me that they have not felt like they have a fair GM in very long time, and usually it feels like the GM is out to "get them", but they said they didn't feel that way about my game. I would like to think of course that this is due to how I run my game, but i also know it is this system that really sells this.
Also, I love to build the dice pools and tell the players why the dice are in there. I am a huge Setback Dice user, and I love to say why they are in there, and as well as to why the difficulty dice are the or even challenge dice. As the GM, about the only time I roll dice is when a NPC bad guy is rolling an attack. My NPC member of the group, the medic they hired on, they roll all the checks for him. About any skills that a NPC baddie would use becomes the difficulty for the PC skill roll to "detect" it or whatever. So if a baddie is sneaking up on a PC, I would have the PC roll his perception or vigilance with the difficulty being the baddies skill in sneak. SO I am not rolling the dice very much, and I am ok with that.
Like a lot of things in this game, it is really up to what you want to do. Some people want to throw out classes, or change how shields work or skills, or whatever. That is great, if that works for them to do that or to roll behind a screen, then great.
For a young GM, I suggest doing the open rolling. It will help you and the players to understand everything going on better, and will only help you guys develop a deeper understanding and trust for each other. When things do go bad, they won't take it as a personal thing, they will understand what is going on, and will allow them to enjoy the game more.
--Side note/rant-- I have always hated being a player and when I roll my attack in other systems. Ok I have a +10 to hit, I rolled an 18!! Thats is a 28!, the GM/DM, nope, that's a miss. ok next player roll.... Wow, I can't hit when I roll an 18, guess I am not doing anything this round... Or you do a bunch of defensive stuff to rally up your defense, and you still get hit...
Anyway, here is a picture of my setup with my GM screen, I use it to mainly hide my notes, if I even have any... I also i really hate having things between me and the players. I don't allow laptops on my gaming table either. Good luck out there RougeLt.
