Just to put an interesting data point on it, although I'm not sure he did it on purpose, people should take a look at Lag's "To Kill a Mocking Falcon" thread.

I gave up after the first page, but it was 100% lists - there was absolutely zero discussion of flight tactics.

I agree with Buhallin on the Silver Bullets but I don't think Autothruster is likely to be a silver bullet. If it's an agility buff when out of arc it forces a change in flight pattern from the Falcon: it suddenly needs to think about aiming its firing arc.

That depends on how effective it is. If it's a very good buff, sure, the Falcon will care. If it's not, probably not.

But it's still a silver bullet, mostly because you have to gauge whether it's worth taking or not. If you load up with them and end up not facing turrets, it's wasted points.

Just to put an interesting data point on it, although I'm not sure he did it on purpose, people should take a look at Lag's "To Kill a Mocking Falcon" thread.

I gave up after the first page, but it was 100% lists - there was absolutely zero discussion of flight tactics.

to be fair, flight tactics only help so much when you are facing Han Solo PTL MF title C3P0 Engine Upgrade. No matter how much you try to focus fire or spread out to cover arcs or anything, there's really not much you could do against this pancake that would either randomly hard turn 1 or forward 4, take a boost, and see if there's any good shots against it. If yes, PTL into evade, if no, simply do nothing and remain unstressed so next turn you are much more unpredictable in terms of your maneuvers

But it's still a silver bullet, mostly because you have to gauge whether it's worth taking or not. If you load up with them and end up not facing turrets, it's wasted points.

That depends on what exactly the fix is. Lots of people have been talking about it as an anti-turret upgrade, but that's not quite what was implied in the interview: the question, IIRC, was about turrets--but the answer was basically that it's an upgrade that's designed to help agile and maneuverable ships like the Interceptor and presumably the ship that's packaged with the upgrade, be a bit more competitive.

So that, combined with the fact that there are no other public hints about what it will actually do, leaves the door open for an upgrade that helps against turrets but doesn't amount to wasting points against other kinds of lists.

I think Gencon happened at a specific time and won't be repeated again. We have new stuff coming out this week and soon after. My stores will eventually get the Rebel Transport back in stock, as well. Basically, we will have a ton of new stuff to play with.

For one, people will want to play different ships. Flying the same lists over and over again becomes boring. With all the various new toys, there are tons of configurations for new and old ships that will really make a lot of different lists viable. How many Farlanders or Nera Dantels will now be played? Or even good ole' Dutch (with new options)? New A-wing combos?

Wtih all the new stuff, there are lots of different combos that can defeat a Fat Han list and also a Phantom list. I've not seen too many Tie Swarms around, but I bet those, too. If the mid-level guys keep taking Fat Hans and Phantoms to tournaments, the good players have tactics and lists that can beat them. It will make them easier to defeat. Any serious player will have a new set of tactics to beat YT-1300's and Phantoms. The more of them that show up will probably get beaten.

I still think this. People will get bored with flying Fat Hans and there will be new options to take them on. Just like Vorpal said, just because you don't see innovative lists doesn't mean that you can't (or others aren't that you don't see). I think there will be some peopel who come up with decent strategies and a decent list that can defeat Phantoms and Fat Hans and you will see a new meta emmerge. The only problem then is that that first list will get copied by 101 people and that will be the new meta to complain about.

Just to put an interesting data point on it, although I'm not sure he did it on purpose, people should take a look at Lag's "To Kill a Mocking Falcon" thread.

I gave up after the first page, but it was 100% lists - there was absolutely zero discussion of flight tactics.

While I agree that the meta has changed and even that there is more emphasis on list building than before, I don't think the forum's focus on list building as is correlative to its value in the game but is more reflective of a shift in the forums themselves.

In some ways, I think flight tactics are more important than ever, but the mentality of a lot of the discussion here is to try and build that out of lists as much as possible. I've had a very good run of success recently with very few tournament losses and I haven't brought a phantom or falcon to any of them, though I faced them plenty.

Flight tactics are also a lot harder to explain, as I find them much more intuitive than list building. I can take as much time as possible list building, but I can't spend 10 minutes a turn figuring out every possible movement option. Flight tactics are also a lot more dependent on the actual situation on the table.

It is a lot easier to go 'list X giving you problems? Try Y or Z', than to say, 'well if he deploys on the left flank deploy this way, unless you have this ships, or if he has those ships, or if the asteroids are more on your side of the map, or...'

Just to put an interesting data point on it, although I'm not sure he did it on purpose, people should take a look at Lag's "To Kill a Mocking Falcon" thread.

I gave up after the first page, but it was 100% lists - there was absolutely zero discussion of flight tactics.

to be fair, flight tactics only help so much when you are facing Han Solo PTL MF title C3P0 Engine Upgrade. No matter how much you try to focus fire or spread out to cover arcs or anything, there's really not much you could do against this pancake that would either randomly hard turn 1 or forward 4, take a boost, and see if there's any good shots against it. If yes, PTL into evade, if no, simply do nothing and remain unstressed so next turn you are much more unpredictable in terms of your maneuvers

This is pretty much my point. The combination of hypermobile, superdurable units have taken away a lot of the maneuver tactics. I did some charting with Vassal last night on what a Boost/Barrel Roll Dash can do, and it's absolutely insane - if you're a standard fighter like an X-wing head-to-head with it at range 3, come next turn you have two choices: Collide, or have no shot. There is pretty literally no combination of maneuvers which will result in a shot for you, and it only gets worse.

With no (or little) real option tactically, the only choice is to look for build options that can constrain it. Sadly, at least so far the only option I've really come up with to deal with hypermobile turrets is... another hypermobile turret.

And yes, the mobility will be required. Standard movement from something like the Decimator doesn't cut it, because of the HLC. The Decimator will be throwing 3v3 and eating 4v0. That does not end well, even with a ton of hull.

The more I think about Dash, the less I'm worried about him. Sure he's good, but he really, really doesn't want to lose any actions. Stressing him or blocking him will be very handy.

Sure, in the hands of an expert player he will be an unholy beast, but so would pretty much any other ship. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I don't find myself in a game with Paul Heaver every day. So, I'm not too worried about that.

The combination of hypermobile, superdurable units have taken away a lot of the maneuver tactics.

Ok, lets accept that this is true. What do we and/or FFG do about it? If maneuvering no longer matter and the game is decided before the first dial is set.

What needs to happen to fix that, because I think most everyone here would agree that's a bad state for X-Wing to be in.

I know for myself, if this is true I won't bother playing in any tournaments anytime soon.

The combination of hypermobile, superdurable units have taken away a lot of the maneuver tactics.

Ok, lets accept that this is true. What do we and/or FFG do about it? If maneuvering no longer matter and the game is decided before the first dial is set.

What needs to happen to fix that, because I think most everyone here would agree that's a bad state for X-Wing to be in.

I know for myself, if this is true I won't bother playing in any tournaments anytime soon.

I hesitate to even suggest it, because I know people are going to go ballistic about it, but...

On top of some minor fix to the Phantom, Engine Upgrade should be made Small Ship Only.

Yes, I can already see most of the counterarguments (other than the general "It doesn't need that!"). But what large bases do to movement actions is just silly. Having one available is very, very good, and that was what we had before, or at the very least having both was restrictive (Expert Handling). But with the Outrider having both... The possible range of movement that a large base gets from B+BR is absolutely insane, and the extra movement they get from a boost is worth far more than 4 points.

I think Han may be over the top, but I don't think he's actually game-breaking. Ships that can cover more than half the board with their move are. Limiting the super-movement would give standard fighters something to try and accomplish again.

<shrug> I know it won't be a popular suggestion, but it seems the easiest. It's also in a vein that we've already seen, with barrel roll being slightly restricted from large ships. It might even be balanced with a new Engine Upgrade for large ships that cost more, but I think it needs to be toned down.

Engine Upgrade should be made Small Ship Only.

They did change the way barrel roll works for large ships. So such a thing isn't completely out of line. But on the other hand, wouldn't this about kill the doomshuttle?

The combination of hypermobile, superdurable units have taken away a lot of the maneuver tactics.

Ok, lets accept that this is true. What do we and/or FFG do about it? If maneuvering no longer matter and the game is decided before the first dial is set.

What needs to happen to fix that, because I think most everyone here would agree that's a bad state for X-Wing to be in.

I know for myself, if this is true I won't bother playing in any tournaments anytime soon.

I hesitate to even suggest it, because I know people are going to go ballistic about it, but...

On top of some minor fix to the Phantom, Engine Upgrade should be made Small Ship Only.

Yes, I can already see most of the counterarguments (other than the general "It doesn't need that!"). But what large bases do to movement actions is just silly. Having one available is very, very good, and that was what we had before, or at the very least having both was restrictive (Expert Handling). But with the Outrider having both... The possible range of movement that a large base gets from B+BR is absolutely insane, and the extra movement they get from a boost is worth far more than 4 points.

I think Han may be over the top, but I don't think he's actually game-breaking. Ships that can cover more than half the board with their move are. Limiting the super-movement would give standard fighters something to try and accomplish again.

<shrug> I know it won't be a popular suggestion, but it seems the easiest. It's also in a vein that we've already seen, with barrel roll being slightly restricted from large ships. It might even be balanced with a new Engine Upgrade for large ships that cost more, but I think it needs to be toned down.

Perhaps a rule that boost for large ships uses the short side of the '1' template instead of the traditional long side?

Edit: And it would be interesting to see them find a practical way to ban a card for use on the ship type it comes with.

I could get behind this ^^^

Seeing what has been done to Barrel Rolling Big-Ships already, this doesn't seem much of a stretch actually. Of course saying that now, I can just envision FFG changing the Engine upgrade so it mimics the barrel roll mechanic - rather than using a 1 forward movement template, you flip the template so it's on the long edge rather than short-edge, or something similarly stupid. Of course that does nothing for the 1 bank template, so...

Edit: 'd

The combination of hypermobile, superdurable units have taken away a lot of the maneuver tactics.

Ok, lets accept that this is true. What do we and/or FFG do about it? If maneuvering no longer matter and the game is decided before the first dial is set.

What needs to happen to fix that, because I think most everyone here would agree that's a bad state for X-Wing to be in.

I know for myself, if this is true I won't bother playing in any tournaments anytime soon.

I hesitate to even suggest it, because I know people are going to go ballistic about it, but...

On top of some minor fix to the Phantom, Engine Upgrade should be made Small Ship Only.

Yes, I can already see most of the counterarguments (other than the general "It doesn't need that!"). But what large bases do to movement actions is just silly. Having one available is very, very good, and that was what we had before, or at the very least having both was restrictive (Expert Handling). But with the Outrider having both... The possible range of movement that a large base gets from B+BR is absolutely insane, and the extra movement they get from a boost is worth far more than 4 points.

I think Han may be over the top, but I don't think he's actually game-breaking. Ships that can cover more than half the board with their move are. Limiting the super-movement would give standard fighters something to try and accomplish again.

<shrug> I know it won't be a popular suggestion, but it seems the easiest. It's also in a vein that we've already seen, with barrel roll being slightly restricted from large ships. It might even be balanced with a new Engine Upgrade for large ships that cost more, but I think it needs to be toned down.

It's funny but I actually wondered if they'd similarly change engine upgrade on large ships when I saw the change to barrel roll. I was actually thinking that the simplest way (other than having large ship have a different point cost for the upgrade, which I like), would be to simply allow them to use the straight 1only, which at least is less distance and doesn't allow the base to angle as well to avoid an arc. EDIT: Or, for large ships, make it cause a stress so it's the only move they get. I mean Lorrir gets one for bank barrel rolling, which seems silly now, doesn't it?

Um, maybe you shouldn't deploy your "X-wing head-to-head with it [Dash] at range 3"... That just seems to make common sense. Oh, and you forgot about the rest of your squadron (that would be on the table since we don't play in a vacuum).

"With no (or little) real option tactically, the only choice is to look for build options that can constrain it. Sadly, at least so far the only option I've really come up with to deal with hypermobile turrets is... another hypermobile turret."

Based on what voluminous practical experience?... Nera Dantel? Ion Weapons? Bombs? Bounty Hunters? When the mind is not constrained by superficial restrictions, it's easy to think of creative ways to destroy a 5/5 ship.

So this is when you say screw the meta I'll develop my own lists instead of flying Fat Han/Swarm/Phantom. I've been developing a bunch of 3 ship lists lately. Here are a few:

ABB Squadron:

Keyan Farlander

Opportunist

Ibtisam

VI

Tycho Celchu

PtL

Experimental Interface

CR

ATP

EH

AXE Squadron: (Pre-Aces)

Tycho Celchu

PtL

Corran Horn

FCS

R7

Wedge Antilles

Predator

Vader's Wrath

Darth Vader

EU

Outmaneuver

Echo

ACD

Delta Squadron Pilot

These are just stuff I came up with, nothing is playtested.

Um, maybe you shouldn't deploy your "X-wing head-to-head with it [Dash] at range 3"... That just seems to make common sense. Oh, and you forgot about the rest of your squadron (that would be on the table since we don't play in a vacuum).

Probably shouldn't forget about the rest of Dash's squadron, either, right?

I used the head-to-head approach for two reasons. First, it's simple to illustrate and see. But more importantly, it's actually the most generous to the fighter. Head-to-head, Dash basically has two options - left or right. But open it up, and straight comes into play too. It also opens more distance, since he can punch the 4 ahead. Being at an angle against a ship that can do what the Outrider does with B+BR is not an improvement.

Engine Upgrade should be made Small Ship Only.

They did change the way barrel roll works for large ships. So such a thing isn't completely out of line. But on the other hand, wouldn't this about kill the doomshuttle?

Doom shuttles don't typically use Engine Upgrade, but it would certainly be a pretty serious hit to the dogfighting variants of the shuttle. There could be a couple simple fixes via new cards ("Combat Support" title, gives the shuttle boost?) or maybe it just becomes a casualty of the fix. IMHO it should get more options to actually function as the support ship I think it was intended to be, but who knows? It would certainly be something to consider.

Honestly, I think that Engine Upgrade being such an integral part of the shuttle points to how problematic it is. If a single specific upgrade is so central to a ship's function, it points to either bad design on the ship or bad design on the upgrade.

I haven't read the whole thread I will when I have time. Fat han isn't a wave 4 thing, there were two fat hans at my imdarr alpha event. Also I still believe you can fly any ship you want save the advanced and have a competitive list you just need to have a play for how you will fly against a phantom and a fat han and even the 60 point dash if he is available. You may have to equip them differently then you want or fly them differently then you are used to but you can still fly them and win against the above ships. Fly what you want to fly (though 4 of the same ship is probably a bad idea unless you are flying swarm or mini swarm) and then practice against the ships you have a hard time with and ask your sparring partner for if they see any better ways to fly and make tweaks to upgrades and strategy based on the games until you have a list that fits your play style and you have a great plan regardless for whatever shows up across from you.

I really appreciate the statistics of the regionals and nationals threads but I don't believe it shows the best ships so much as what most players think will take them all the way and then statistics for that. For instance not a lot of people are good at flying the shuttle I myself am only mediocre but its a great ship. So not alot of them show up because people don't think they can go all the way with it.

it points to either bad design on the ship or bad design on the upgrade.

Or it points to how ineffective support ships generally are in X-Wing. You don't see a ton of HWK's in the top 8 of most tournaments either.

The main reason the shuttle is used, generally speaking. Is because Sablegriffon was able to figure out a way to make it effective as something other then a support ship.

I tried a couple different ways to make it work as a support ship and just was never happy with the results.

it points to either bad design on the ship or bad design on the upgrade.

Or it points to how ineffective support ships generally are in X-Wing. You don't see a ton of HWK's in the top 8 of most tournaments either.

The main reason the shuttle is used, generally speaking. Is because Sablegriffon was able to figure out a way to make it effective as something other then a support ship.

I tried a couple different ways to make it work as a support ship and just was never happy with the results.

Well, yeah, that would be bad design

I don't disagree with any of this, but if the combat shuttle becomes a casualty in order to keep the rest of the game from descending into Turret-Wing, I can live with that.

I really appreciate the statistics of the regionals and nationals threads but I don't believe it shows the best ships so much as what most players think will take them all the way and then statistics for that. For instance not a lot of people are good at flying the shuttle I myself am only mediocre but its a great ship. So not alot of them show up because people don't think they can go all the way with it.

The Regionals thread does now in fact include conditional effectiveness statistics as well as "popularity" and "prevalence" statistics. Incidentally, the Shuttle's effectiveness is very high.

I've been trying to think about what has changed in X-wing lately, and have a possible theory.

Prior to Wave 4, list building and meta analysis was mostly proactive, rather than reactive. That is, you built to the ships that were good, and strategy that worked, but there were very few things you had to specifically counter, and those that you did rarely required anything specific. There were far more broad guidelines than specific counters. And even in cases where there were things you had to be aware of - ion threat, for example - the reaction came in the game rather than in the list-building stage. At the absolute worst the things you had prepare against were very general - "swarm" and "high-HP list".

But with the advent of Phantoms especially, and the follow-on development of Fat Han/Chewie, and now the insanity that is a hypermobile HLC Turret that ignores asteroids while getting 3 actions a turn, that's no longer reasonable. Our meta has become reactive. There's now a good long list of ships that in isolation look to be perfectly good, but are useless if they can't beat X or Y. Our reactions have reached the list-building phase.

This is, IMHO, the source of a lot of the recent consternation. It's a new set of constraints which occur at a different level than we're used to, and it's seriously compresses the meta.

More importantly, it's pushed a lot of the strategy of the game into list-building rather than in-game strategy. Not comprehensively, honestly, but most of the discussions (and flaming) over how to deal with Fat Han have to do with list-building options - bring more guns, use Outmaneuver, etc. Dash is shaping up to be even worse - I consider a classic Garven/Dutch XXXY list, and have a hard time imagining how you'd pin him down. I look at 60 points of Dash and figure it could destroy what used to be a solid 100-point list.

This worries me, and I think this is a bad thing for the game. X-wing provides a great play experience because the game is good. The more we have "Well, there's no point in playing this matchup" matchups which are decided at the list-building phase, the worse the game is going to be.

While I'm sure the usual suspects will have the usual responses, I'm curious what the rest of the community thinks. Has anyone else felt this shift?

I'll think about this and post an actual considered response but I wanted to get this out before I did

As for Engine Upgrade, what about making EPTs or Mods with 2 point costs -- one for small and one for large ships? Like EU: 4/7pts where 4 is small ships and 7 is large ships? (Say you need more parts, fuel, and thrusters to move the larger mass and adjust for its primary thrust.)

Also, I'm curious, how would people redesign the YT-1300? Everybody wants the Falcon in the game but what would you do to change the ship itself if anything? Anybody?