Does that mean I'm going to build directly to counter it every single time?

Someone pointed out in another thread, something that I found to be both true and rather astute. The issue isn't Fat Han, or Phantoms, it's the both of them. Building a list that can do well against both types of lists is really one of the issues here.

But this is largely only an issue in tournaments, because the way I play anyway, is we'll both pick a list, and play. Then next game the people playing will pick different lists and play. So for friendly games I don't need to build a true all comers list, because I won't be playing that same list for 3 or 4 games in a row.

Also there's the fact that if I win 2 out of 4 games, I had a good night, because I'm mot playing for first place.

Don't give me the argument that the game is over before dials are set. The game is over before YOU even hit the tournament floor with that attitude.

Very much true. Anyone who has this attitude, should IMO just quit playing, because they've already lost. If you believe there's lists out there that can not be beat, no matter how well you fly, then just get out of the game. I know I'd not bother playing this game at all if I thought that was true, and that is one of the main reasons I sold off my 40k collection to pay for more X-Wing stuff.

When I started playing this game, way back at the end of wave 1, there were 12 people on these forums, and the best list you could make was:

Howlrunner

Mauler + DTF

Backstabber

Academy Tie

Academy Tie

Academy Tie

Academy Tie

That list continued to dominate until wave 4, when the Phantom was introduced to stop the dominance of formation flying.

When the Falcon came out, it was powerful and became cornerstone of a lot of rebel lists. Interceptors were powerful then, countered really only by the Falcon and to some extent, Ion Y-Wings. I remember pulling my hair out because of Turd and Fel.

Wave 3: The dawn of the Bwing. IMHO, this is the one ship that FFG released that was not balanced. It is way too good for its cost. It practically replaced the Xwing in most Rebel lists unless points couldnt be tweaked, and it became THE rebel ship (as popular, if not even more popular than the Falcon.) Biggs walks the Dags, Bluebacca, Bloody Daggers, Bluecannons, ***** Gallore's Flying Circus (4 Blues with Advanced Sensors).

Wave 4: Our current state of affairs. The Phantom was needed to break the dominance of formation flying. There were really 3 types of tournament lists. TIE Swarms, Falcon + 2 ships, four small rebel ships (usually with Biggs). Everyone flew formation. The Phantom came into this and people were not prepared for it. Everyone knew how to make sure they didnt bump their own ships, but not too many people knew how to cover multiple arc (those that did remembered the terror that Turd and Fel used to cause). So turret became the big thing. Since Wave 4 I have seen a lot of Falcons run by new players because its apparently "easier" (it isnt), and lots of ion ywings. Then the Fat Falcon showed up. Now everyone seems to have forgotten how to kill falcons.

Everyone complains about MF Title and C3P0. Its two guaranteed evades in a turn. That is it. If you block the falcon, which is quite easy to do, then it is one evade a turn. Just blast through it. What people dont seem to get is that by playing Fat Falcon, you are tying up 50-60 points. Thats a LOT of potential firepower.

When S&V comes out, there will be another faction available, which will take players away from Rebs and Imps, but most importantly, there will be new combos that are available that counter both the Fat Falcon and the Phantom.

When I started playing this game, way back at the end of wave 1, there were 12 people on these forums, and the best list you could make was:

Howlrunner

Mauler + DTF

Backstabber

Academy Tie

Academy Tie

Academy Tie

Academy Tie

That list continued to dominate until wave 4, when the Phantom was introduced to stop the dominance of formation flying.

When the Falcon came out, it was powerful and became cornerstone of a lot of rebel lists. Interceptors were powerful then, countered really only by the Falcon and to some extent, Ion Y-Wings. I remember pulling my hair out because of Turd and Fel.

Wave 3: The dawn of the Bwing. IMHO, this is the one ship that FFG released that was not balanced. It is way too good for its cost. It practically replaced the Xwing in most Rebel lists unless points couldnt be tweaked, and it became THE rebel ship (as popular, if not even more popular than the Falcon.) Biggs walks the Dags, Bluebacca, Bloody Daggers, Bluecannons, ***** Gallore's Flying Circus (4 Blues with Advanced Sensors).

Wave 4: Our current state of affairs. The Phantom was needed to break the dominance of formation flying. There were really 3 types of tournament lists. TIE Swarms, Falcon + 2 ships, four small rebel ships (usually with Biggs). Everyone flew formation. The Phantom came into this and people were not prepared for it. Everyone knew how to make sure they didnt bump their own ships, but not too many people knew how to cover multiple arc (those that did remembered the terror that Turd and Fel used to cause). So turret became the big thing. Since Wave 4 I have seen a lot of Falcons run by new players because its apparently "easier" (it isnt), and lots of ion ywings. Then the Fat Falcon showed up. Now everyone seems to have forgotten how to kill falcons.

Everyone complains about MF Title and C3P0. Its two guaranteed evades in a turn. That is it. If you block the falcon, which is quite easy to do, then it is one evade a turn. Just blast through it. What people dont seem to get is that by playing Fat Falcon, you are tying up 50-60 points. Thats a LOT of potential firepower.

When S&V comes out, there will be another faction available, which will take players away from Rebs and Imps, but most importantly, there will be new combos that are available that counter both the Fat Falcon and the Phantom.

And there will likely also be new upgrade cards that add to the potency of the Fat Falcon and Phantom lists. Such is the way of the world, and it's something we should prepare for. It's not a bad thing, but it is a thing.

Personally, I just don't like tying up 50-60 points in one ship. That means that one ship is a HUGE target. Come at me with your Fat Han. I guarantee that if you take out 2 of my ships and I manage to take out Han, after one hour I'm going home with the win. Han still only throws 3 dice. With 60 points tied up in Han (or close to it), you can't possibly bring much more offense to the table - not at 100 points you can't. You may be able to cram in 2 Rookies for another 6 points or 3 Z-95's for another 6 points, but you are still sorely lacking in the offense department. And defense may allow you to last a while longer, but it isn't killing your opponent, so good luck with that..

And there will likely also be new upgrade cards that add to the potency of the Fat Falcon and Phantom lists.

I don't disagree, but FFG has shown itself fairly in touch with the meta, and willing to put stuff in that will change the balance. So with all the YT and Phantom lists, I expect they'll be very careful about introducing anything in Wave 7 and beyond that will be helpful to those lists.

And there will likely also be new upgrade cards that add to the potency of the Fat Falcon and Phantom lists.

I don't disagree, but FFG has shown itself fairly in touch with the meta, and willing to put stuff in that will change the balance. So with all the YT and Phantom lists, I expect they'll be very careful about introducing anything in Wave 7 and beyond that will be helpful to those lists.

That is likely true. I sincerely hope that whatever does come from S&V (and Wave 6) will help with the lesser used ships like the HWK, Advanced, Interceptor (to a lesser extent), and Y-Wing. All are ships that could use some lovin'.

This won't help our current situation but I am curious. Are the Rebels and Imperials still fairly matched?

What if either you had to field two squads, one imperial and one rebel, or there was two winners, one imperial and one rebel would that solve anything. Next...

What if you could only play Rebel against Imperial and you could NOT field the Falcon? Does that return some balance (to the force)?

Our meta has become reactive.

Your meta has become reactive.

Where I live, people still fly what they like and they still enjoy the game.

Yep. X-wing hasn't changed at all. The tournament scene changed. And as much as many of you define the game by its tournament scene, they are two very different beasts.

What did Dom spend his last 4 points on? Everyone talks about his list, but I haven't seen the specific writeup of it anywhere. Is it somewhere in the bowels of Nationals Results thread, or what?

Everything is on the first page of the Nationals thread, specifically post #2. Every single squad that was reported is recorded there, with all of its upgrades, except for Friday's squads at GenCon which I still have to upload. From memory, he had Bounty Hunter; 2x OGP + FCS; OGP.

We can quibble about the effective winning percentage, but when the numbers are 113% for Wave 3 and 126% for Wave 4, I just don't think that's that big of a deal, especially as that's an even smaller sample size. Though, I'd love to hear how MajorJuggler would evaluate his own numbers there as he did the calculations.

There are 5 columns of data, and they all mean something different. Column 1 and column 4 are the most "at-a-glance" informative. Column 1 is how often stuff makes it into the top tables. So this measures the "popularity" of the meta. Column 4 measures how well stuff does once it gets there. So this tells you what is actually the most effective, regardless of how popular it is.

Also, the squad archetypes also tells a lot of information, not just the ships themselves.

Wave 3: The dawn of the Bwing. IMHO, this is the one ship that FFG released that was not balanced. It is way too good for its cost. It practically replaced the Xwing in most Rebel lists unless points couldnt be tweaked, and it became THE rebel ship (as popular, if not even more popular than the Falcon.) Biggs walks the Dags, Bluebacca, Bloody Daggers, Bluecannons, ***** Gallore's Flying Circus (4 Blues with Advanced Sensors).

B-wings are OK for their cost, they are neither too expensive nor too cheap. Generic X-wings however are poor for their cost. And Z-95's and TIE Fighters are about the best in the game. This table of jousting values should put the B-wing in perspective.

Looking forward, there is one entry in that list that should scare people, and it is the Outrider + HLC. To this point, FFG has not released a ship / combo so powerful that it has broken the game. Fat Falcons are probably the closest to this point, although they still owe half their success to Z-95's.

HLC Outrider Dash in wave 5 could be another story. I'll see about calculating the triple action Dash efficiency tonight.

Wave 4 meta can be summarized as:

1. Named ACD TIE Phantoms are very efficient, so you basically need to list build around countering their PS, or getting extra gunner shots on them.
2. Rise of the Z-95, fall of the B-wing, and nail in the coffin of the generic X-wing.
3. Fat Falcon is an all-around solid squad, that can also be tailored to counter Phantoms.

#1 and #2 I was able to predict before wave 4 released just by using MathWing. Wave 5 will be much simpler. Instead of list building to counter Phantoms, you will need to list build to counter Dash:

1. List building will revolve around countering the PS7/9 HLC Outrider Dash. The way that Phantoms are countered by higher PS and shooting before they recloak, Dash will be countered by bringing a higher PS ship with Engine Upgrade that moves after Dash and can chase it down, negating its HLC.

HLC Dash is the best ship in the game, hands down... right up until a large base ship with Engine Upgrade moves after him and can close the gap. The analogy is almost identical to ACD Phantoms in wave 4. The wave 5 meta has already shifted towards PS9 Dash. PS10 and PS11 will continue to be a thing, just like in wave 4. The problem with PS9 Dash is that he is countered by PS11 Han + EU, PS10 Admiral + EU, and PS7 triple action Dash. So although PS9 Dash is the "new shiny" in the meta, I predict that the first people to bring PS7 triple action Dash + blockers are going to have the advantage working their way through tournaments. If wave 5 is available at Worlds, then my bet would be on this squad:

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Engine Upgrade

2x Prototype Pilots + Refit

1x Bandit Squadron Pilot

Triple action on Dash. TL+F on 4 dice HLC. Block with your 3 meatshields to prevent Dash getting boxed in. More importantly, keep Dash way away from everybody. If you can fly Dash around the edges or through dense debris fields, and force poor choices from your opponent, this will be the squad to beat.

And there will likely also be new upgrade cards that add to the potency of the Fat Falcon and Phantom lists.

I don't disagree, but FFG has shown itself fairly in touch with the meta, and willing to put stuff in that will change the balance. So with all the YT and Phantom lists, I expect they'll be very careful about introducing anything in Wave 7 and beyond that will be helpful to those lists.

They are good, but they are not infallible. From their TC Interview at GenCon, they stated that they "might have" gotten the cost wrong on the generic E-wings (translation: they did, but this wasn't clear during the design process). They erroneously stated that no large base ship had ever won at a Nationals event before, indicating that they had not been following the Nationals thread: Fat Han won the previous weekend at Nordic, and triple Bounty Hunter won 2 months prior in wave 3 Italy. Their stated perception of diverse lists is slightly suspect. I have all of the squads from GenCon, and although I haven't run all the hard numbers yet, there were a lot of Falcons and Phantoms.

These are all fairly minor going forward, and most of this can be attributed to putting on a positive spin during an interview. What matters is going forward how they handle things. Forget wave 7, what will the new cannons in wave 6 do to Outrider Dash? Will he get a viable range 1-3 cannon? We will likely find out in the next couple of months.

This won't help our current situation but I am curious. Are the Rebels and Imperials still fairly matched?

I think this is the wrong question. I think the real question is: Will a more skilled player always beat a less skilled player when playing opposite factions of factions of the same strength. This conversation has to include player skill as a variable. And that variable is frequently ignored.

There are 5 columns of data, and they all mean something different. Column 1 and column 4 are the most "at-a-glance" informative. Column 1 is how often stuff makes it into the top tables. So this measures the "popularity" of the meta. Column 4 measures how well stuff does once it gets there. So this tells you what is actually the most effective, regardless of how popular it is.

Also, the squad archetypes also tells a lot of information, not just the ships themselves.

Yeah, I meant with regard to the 13% difference in column five for the top Tier between Wave 3 and 4. How significant do you feel that is?

I also did look at the squad archetypes in a later post. It's great information, but that's a bit harder to parse, since for example, a four ship rebel builds have a lot more variety than a TIE swarm, so the fact that they were 26% of Wave 3 doesn't really mean all that much in terms of this discussion.

Looking forward, there is one entry in that list that should scare people, and it is the Outrider + HLC. To this point, FFG has not released a ship / combo so powerful that it has broken the game. Fat Falcons are probably the closest to this point, although they still owe half their success to Z-95's.

HLC Outrider Dash in wave 5 could be another story. I'll see about calculating the triple action Dash efficiency tonight.

By jousting value, sure. But that makes the assumption (out of necessity) that nobody ever maneuvers.

There are 5 columns of data, and they all mean something different. Column 1 and column 4 are the most "at-a-glance" informative. Column 1 is how often stuff makes it into the top tables. So this measures the "popularity" of the meta. Column 4 measures how well stuff does once it gets there. So this tells you what is actually the most effective, regardless of how popular it is.

Also, the squad archetypes also tells a lot of information, not just the ships themselves.

Yeah, I meant with regard to the 13% difference in column five for the top Tier between Wave 3 and 4. How significant do you feel that is?

I also did look at the squad archetypes in a later post. It's great information, but that's a bit harder to parse, since for example, a four ship rebel builds have a lot more variety than a TIE swarm, so the fact that they were 26% of Wave 3 doesn't really mean all that much in terms of this discussion.

Column 5 is the conditional effectiveness of a squad outright winning, and taking first place, so there is more noise in that data until you have many more samples. 18 Regionals is enough to get a decent picture, but I still think using the overall effectiveness as a baseline is more informative. Still, TIE Phantoms did VERY well in wave 4 Regionals at winning everything, relative to how often they made it to the final tables.

Looking forward, there is one entry in that list that should scare people, and it is the Outrider + HLC. To this point, FFG has not released a ship / combo so powerful that it has broken the game. Fat Falcons are probably the closest to this point, although they still owe half their success to Z-95's.

HLC Outrider Dash in wave 5 could be another story. I'll see about calculating the triple action Dash efficiency tonight.

By jousting value, sure. But that makes the assumption (out of necessity) that nobody ever maneuvers.

True, so what do you do with those numbers? Those values don't make any assumptions either way about maneuvering, it's the value of a given statline given everything else is equal. So the best comparison is against similar ships. In this case, I cut it down here to only large base ships with 360 degree turrets.

Everyone knows the ORS is a poor value compared to the named YT-1300's. This is primarily due to it high cost for its stats, which equals low jousting efficiency. Likewise, the HLC Outrider will make the named YT-1300 look like a poor value, C-3P0 notwithstanding. The numbers tell us that as long as HLC Outrider can still have a shot, it is going to be a beast of a ship. If you can get at range 1 of it, then it will do much worse than the above numbers. But if it can stay at range 2-3, it will do even better than the above. And the YT-2400, Dash's ability, and debris fields, all appear to be tailor-made to help the Outrider stay at range 3.

So now you need to layer maneuvering on top of that. The VT-49 has the relative worst dial of the bunch, and the YT-2400 has the best. HLC Outrider suffers from the obvious problem of having a range 1 hole, but Dash can maneuver onto and through obstacles, and the YT-2400 has a barrel roll. With debris fields, Dash can now move onto debris and suffer zero ill effects. With Engine Upgrade, Barrel Roll, PtL, and blockers for support, PS7 Dash is going to be hard to catch even with a PS8+ large base ship with Engine Upgrade. Just try chasing him through a debris field that robs you of your actions and gives you a stress...

Here in the Pacific Northwest, I've been relatively spoiled by the quality of players I've encountered... and this may be skewing my perspective... but what I'm seeing is a higher emphasis on player skill .

Yes, I've seen plenty of swarm / fat han / phantom lists... but they're (usually) being flown by the more middle-of-the-pack players. Again, YMMV, but the most highly skilled local players are using things like double-hawk, multiple lambdas, or 3-4 rebel ship lists. While they aren't super scary on paper, the guys running 'em fly really @#$%^ing well .

When I see Mr. Froggies across from me, with XXXY? You bet I'd have an easier time against some random guy with a fat han list.

That's just it: I'm not seeing volume (number), I'm seeing volume (loudness). It's mostly been the same few people complaining over and over in every thread. And most (but not all) of them winge and moan and at the same time completely disregard solid advice on how to deal. You want me on your side in this? You want to convince people? Have those same crybabies go play 10 rounds using each method described. Then come back. Either they'll find some actually work fairly well, and they'll quit adding to the sea of tears, or they'll have documentable proof that after 50 games they still couldn't do jack against it and then we've got some real proof to work from. All I keep seeing is fifty versions of "i lost against this today please nerf."

I think the same could be said on other other side. There's a definite list of usual suspects trying to shout them down that I could run through without needing to start on the fingers of hand #2, much less toes. None of them contribute anything either. I'm also not sure I agree about the quantity, because it seems to me like we're getting threads from a lot of different people. Nothing scientific there, just a feeling.

I am going to say though that this sort of response is exactly what has me sick of the boards. If you can't discuss it without calling people "crybabies" and requiring that they prove 50 games playing with exactly the build described before they're allowed to speak... <shrug> I'll take overwrought "I can't beat this" crying over rude "STFU you crybaby noob!" any day.

actually I'd be rather happy to try and provide the data, given how often I play. What kind of data would you require? ie. match lists, matchups, win/lose definitely.

I think Gencon happened at a specific time and won't be repeated again. We have new stuff coming out this week and soon after. My stores will eventually get the Rebel Transport back in stock, as well. Basically, we will have a ton of new stuff to play with.

For one, people will want to play different ships. Flying the same lists over and over again becomes boring. With all the various new toys, there are tons of configurations for new and old ships that will really make a lot of different lists viable. How many Farlanders or Nera Dantels will now be played? Or even good ole' Dutch (with new options)? New A-wing combos?

Wtih all the new stuff, there are lots of different combos that can defeat a Fat Han list and also a Phantom list. I've not seen too many Tie Swarms around, but I bet those, too. If the mid-level guys keep taking Fat Hans and Phantoms to tournaments, the good players have tactics and lists that can beat them. It will make them easier to defeat. Any serious player will have a new set of tactics to beat YT-1300's and Phantoms. The more of them that show up will probably get beaten.

This is how war works. Someone introduces something better than what you have, and you develop a direct counter. Some things do become out and out, outdated. This has upsides and downsides respectively. Some things end up being used for entirely different roles as well, some stay roughly in the same role.

What you're seeing here, is a flip. It used to be that Rebels had that one really powerful ship that was hard to fight. Then people realized that the falcon with its all but canon crew worked about as good as it did in the films, and started using that. It's an interesting thing to see.

And you know why it's interesting?

It utterly confirms how much of a threat the TIE Phantom was, and how impossible for The Empire it was to defeat the Falcon. The TIE Phantom had to be stopped then and there to prevent a decisive loss for The Rebellion. Imagine, if you will, we were playing this as a ground game.

Imagine again, if suddenly Imperials got Dark Troopers, and what you usually use doesn't work.

That's what's happening here. You find the one strong counter to the enemy, and you use it. You use it until the enemy finds another counter- because let me tell you, the Rebellion didn't have YTs in spades. But they did have fighters. Precious ones. We look at it canonically, TIE Phantoms were a greater threat to The Rebellion than Defenders ever, EVER could be.

What we're seeing here.

Is the single most canonical, fluff/EU friendly thing to ever happen to the X-Wing Miniatures game. Except this time, it's a, "What if" scenario, where Ru Murleen and Rookie One failed to destroy Imdaar Alpha.

If you ever wondered what would have happened? This proves it. A systematic destruction of Rebel tactics based on individual fighters, forcing them to turn to larger, more durable and powerful ships. Kitting out old freighters with turrets to do their job. And that is the most deadly thing in the galaxy. A 30m-ish ship that can shoot in any direction, but move with unprecedented speed and agility, with a tough crew.

But who knows what will happen when The Empire turns to Scum And Villainy to counteract these behemoths The Rebellion has. Or even, when The Rebels turn to such people for assistance.

It will change the galaxy as we know it.

And that is the reality of Phantoms and Fat Han.

Stop trying to make conspiracies happen, they're not going to... wait. I too suspect the designers are great fans of Star Wars military history and want to see the meta reflect accurately the progression of starfighter combat in the novels and games.

I've also found the shift in meta after Wave 2 to make the Y-wing a better option than earlier. At first, it always faced a bunch of Tie Figthers as that's mostly what the Imperials had. Now, though, most lists have about 3 ships to them and it faces a lot less dice each round. The Y-wing has become more survivable and more useful. It's better in the current meta than it was in the early. Also, ionize one Tie out of many and who cares? Ionize one out of three and it's a bigger deal.

There are 5 columns of data, and they all mean something different. Column 1 and column 4 are the most "at-a-glance" informative. Column 1 is how often stuff makes it into the top tables. So this measures the "popularity" of the meta. Column 4 measures how well stuff does once it gets there. So this tells you what is actually the most effective, regardless of how popular it is.

Also, the squad archetypes also tells a lot of information, not just the ships themselves.

Yeah, I meant with regard to the 13% difference in column five for the top Tier between Wave 3 and 4. How significant do you feel that is?

I also did look at the squad archetypes in a later post. It's great information, but that's a bit harder to parse, since for example, a four ship rebel builds have a lot more variety than a TIE swarm, so the fact that they were 26% of Wave 3 doesn't really mean all that much in terms of this discussion.

Column 5 is the conditional effectiveness of a squad outright winning, and taking first place, so there is more noise in that data until you have many more samples. 18 Regionals is enough to get a decent picture, but I still think using the overall effectiveness as a baseline is more informative. Still, TIE Phantoms did VERY well in wave 4 Regionals at winning everything, relative to how often they made it to the final tables.

Thanks! That what I thought regarding column 5.

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Engine Upgrade

2x Prototype Pilots + Refit

1x Bandit Squadron Pilot

I played against this exact list the other day. It was disgusting... there was nothing at all I could do about it.

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Engine Upgrade

2x Prototype Pilots + Refit

1x Bandit Squadron Pilot

I played against this exact list the other day. It was disgusting... there was nothing at all I could do about it.

I beat Dash and another outrider with 2 x-wings and a B-wing the other day. I mean, outrider is good, but it doesn't leave you with no options.

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Engine Upgrade

2x Prototype Pilots + Refit

1x Bandit Squadron Pilot

I played against this exact list the other day. It was disgusting... there was nothing at all I could do about it.

I beat Dash and another outrider with 2 x-wings and a B-wing the other day. I mean, outrider is good, but it doesn't leave you with no options.

Not to COMPLETELY derail the topic, but... what were both of your squads?

I don't see 4 generics having any chance against a competent Dash player. You won't consistently get him in arc if he moves last, even if his first move is always green. And he gets a free focus to boot courtesy of Kyle!

I think this is an example of the original point: it is hard to counter some squad builds now through merely better flying, you need the right tools in your own squad.

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Engine Upgrade

2x Prototype Pilots + Refit

1x Bandit Squadron Pilot

I played against this exact list the other day. It was disgusting... there was nothing at all I could do about it.

I beat Dash and another outrider with 2 x-wings and a B-wing the other day. I mean, outrider is good, but it doesn't leave you with no options.

That's a completely different list.

Dash getting boost+target+focus every turn and throwing hlc at range 3 while you get held up by As and a Z that are spending their turns blocking you.

Shooting at Dash is ineffective at range while his is deadly. You won't get actions but he gets 3. He can fly through obstacles with impunity, you can't.

Targetting the As and Z just leaves you open to a whole lot of Dash pain.

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Engine Upgrade

2x Prototype Pilots + Refit

1x Bandit Squadron Pilot

I played against this exact list the other day. It was disgusting... there was nothing at all I could do about it.

I beat Dash and another outrider with 2 x-wings and a B-wing the other day. I mean, outrider is good, but it doesn't leave you with no options.

Not to COMPLETELY derail the topic, but... what were both of your squads?

I don't see 4 generics having any chance against a competent Dash player. You won't consistently get him in arc if he moves last, even if his first move is always green. And he gets a free focus to boot courtesy of Kyle!

I think this is an example of the original point: it is hard to counter some squad builds now through merely better flying, you need the right tools in your own squad.

Farlander, hlc, opp, e2, 3po

Wes

Biggs, vi, ept astromech

Here in the Pacific Northwest, I've been relatively spoiled by the quality of players I've encountered... and this may be skewing my perspective... but what I'm seeing is a higher emphasis on player skill .

And that is a good thing, IMO. I think the good players should be doing better, and I'm delighted to hear that they're flying counter-meta lists.

But I think that much of this discussion is for those of us who are in the middle of the pack or (in my case) trying to catch up to the pack. For us, it's important to draw an understanding of the game where skill is factored out a little. We want to believe that we have a fighting chance. It's clear that one aspect of player skill is cracking the code on/against the dominant meta lists.

While I've seen people above telling us that we should adopt some of the counter-meta lists that should work against the Fat Han and the Phantom Menace, I must have missed the memo where these counter-meta lists are listed. Also, it would be good to understand the theory a bit better. I certainly get it at a rudimentary level, but I need to understand it better to up my game. I'm not trying to net-deck, but a better mastery of the theory would help me well.

Dash Rendar + Push the Limit + Outrider + Heavy Laser Cannon + Kyle Katarn + Engine Upgrade

This is a very hard to pin down ship for anything PS7 or lower. When you get to PS8 however.

I am sure that Wave 5 will herald a new age for Boba Fett because of that Dash build.

Boba Fett + PTL + Ysanne Isard + Engine Upgrade

It is equally hard to pin down thanks to being able to swap directions of the bank and the ability to boost. And it will move after Dash. Now the downside is the HLC is better than the primaries of the Firespray, but the upside is through proper positioning you can get the Firespreay into RB1 of Dash.