When I joined this forum late last spring (just before Wave 4 hit) I was assured by folks that this game was not suffering power creep. It strikes that the power creep has arrived.

I don't think it's power creep, because most of the problem has to do with a fairly small number of pilots and/or upgrades rather than a general trend of increasing power. Take away ACD (a blatant design mistake) and suddenly phantoms are strong but not dominant. That instantly has two major effects on Falcons: the Falcon-beating lists that phantoms suppress come back into the metagame, and a lot fewer people feel compelled to have turrets in their lists just to deal with the possiblity of encountering a phantom. Now that's the two dominant lists taken back down to a reasonable percentage of the metagame, and likely a lot more possibilities opened up to use the rest of the game.

I regularly disregard the card-banning arguments. Also, iPeregrine and I rarely agree. Or, at least, he seems to frequently disagree with me.

However, I think he makes a decent argument here.

It's not that the ACD Phantom is OP on its own. It can certainly be beat. However, I do think that the named ACD Phantom is very tough to beat without specifically building against it. I know that ever since I faced it for the first time, I've been constantly trying to see how I would build against it, even though I seem to have dodged it all but once (that first time) on the tournament scene.

But has the Phantom started to make fewer appearances? Is it starting to be deterred by the Fat Han? Can more balanced builds start to come out to play again sometime soon?

They are toe to toe when it comes to representation. I can't really predict what is going to happen, but wave 5 will make 2 ship builds more likely to appear (whisper + decimator, outrider dash + chewbie, outrider dash + corran, etc etc), as adding some variance to large 360 ship builds. It can get weird really fast.

I'm quite happy that the handful of regular guys who I play with each week aren't into the uber-competitive lists. It makes the game pretty fun and we all get to try out crazy ideas.

I'm a bit frustrated that the handful of regular guys I play with each week aren't into the uber-competitive lists. I want some practice for when I go to a tournament.

Has no one really made a list yet that doesn't do well against both Fat Hans and Phantoms? Or is it that they have, but don't want to spoil it on the forums? Or do we really have to see it win some big event for it to become visible to a level of these forums? I'm pretty sure that a good player has come up with a list that would beat both of the rock and the scissors, especially with Rebel Aces out and Rebel Transport in (some) people's hands.

I've got a list that does well vs. Phantom lists, but I've never played it vs. Fat Han as my casual games don't like same-same matches for casual games.

I have a couple lists that can go sub .500 against the field (but close, say about 40%-45% win rate against any list regardless of type), including both Super Falcons and Phantoms, but nothing that provides a good chance against Phantoms (at or above .500) that simultaneously performs well against Super Falcons (or vice versa). One example is BBYY, with FCS and ICT. It is never super good, but always has an adequate win mechanism available regardless of matchup.

There are two notable exceptions, of course, which are lists that include Phantoms or Falcons. I can build those to have an advantage against one of those two archetypes, and perform at .500 or above against the the other while still maintaining a decent (near .500 or above) win rate against the rest of the field.

I am still looking for a build from some other archetype (or a rogue list) that can perform at or above .500 against the big two.

I only have 1 list that should do equally well vs a fat Han or Whisper/Echo (without using a YT-1300 or Whisper/Echo). I have tried a few variants of it and I have yet to lose against other lists either. The one problem that I have is that people in my area play fun lists, not uber-unbeatable lists. It introduces a lot of game diversity, which I like, but it also means I can't test my list vs other ones.

I only have 1 list that should do equally well vs a fat Han or Whisper/Echo (without using a YT-1300 or Whisper/Echo). I have tried a few variants of it and I have yet to lose against other lists either. The one problem that I have is that people in my area play fun lists, not uber-unbeatable lists. It introduces a lot of game diversity, which I like, but it also means I can't test my list vs other ones.

Cant you just ask someone in advance tell them your bringing something more serious and ask them to do the same.

I only have 1 list that should do equally well vs a fat Han or Whisper/Echo (without using a YT-1300 or Whisper/Echo). I have tried a few variants of it and I have yet to lose against other lists either. The one problem that I have is that people in my area play fun lists, not uber-unbeatable lists. It introduces a lot of game diversity, which I like, but it also means I can't test my list vs other ones.

Cant you just ask someone in advance tell them your bringing something more serious and ask them to do the same.

I'm not sure it would create the intended result (and I also fear that people would be seduced by the dark side of that meta). I should probably just create a seperate post about the counter-meta strategies that I'm developping.

The problem is, one man's fun squad is another one's "meta cheese".

The problem is, one man's fun squad is another one's "meta cheese".

Is that really the case though? I mean, sure, there's no accounting for taste, but do people actually like chasing the meta? Are meta builds 'fun' in terms of what people authentically like to play?

I seriously doubt it.

Are meta builds 'fun' in terms of what people authentically like to play?

Do you think people don't have any fun playing HSF or Fat Han? Win/lose aside, pushing the Falcon around is fun. Same goes with a well flown Phantom list, or even a Tie Swarm, it can be fairly rewarding to navigate a swarm around a bunch of rocks and not hit anything you didn't mean to hit.

Are meta builds 'fun' in terms of what people authentically like to play?

Do you think people don't have any fun playing HSF or Fat Han? Win/lose aside, pushing the Falcon around is fun. Same goes with a well flown Phantom list, or even a Tie Swarm, it can be fairly rewarding to navigate a swarm around a bunch of rocks and not hit anything you didn't mean to hit.

Maybe, but if you ask people, "what's your 'fun' list?", how many answer, "Why, the Fat Han list that I found online, of course!"

The problem is, one man's fun squad is another one's "meta cheese".

Is that really the case though? I mean, sure, there's no accounting for taste, but do people actually like chasing the meta? Are meta builds 'fun' in terms of what people authentically like to play?

I seriously doubt it.

Most of the "meta" lists bore me. I try to make my own lists and plan for some of the things I face but it doesn't work out most of the time.

But, as has happened many times when complaints about the Falcon/Outrider/Decimator have popped up, to many, the ship alone is bad for the game. That just bringing one of the "easy mode" ships is enough to sour some people.

Sure, Dash is going to be harder for you to put guns on than the Decimator, but they still laugh and shoot you no matter where you go.

HLC has range parameters.

Sure, Dash is going to be harder for you to put guns on than the Decimator, but they still laugh and shoot you no matter where you go.

HLC has range parameters.

True, but Dash has relatively high PS and can barrel roll. That can mitigate the range parameters.

...Dash has relatively high PS and can barrel roll. That can mitigate the range parameters.

At the cost of an action, which is worth remembering.

...Dash has relatively high PS and can barrel roll. That can mitigate the range parameters.

At the cost of an action, which is worth remembering.

Aw, poor Dash.

...Dash has relatively high PS and can barrel roll. That can mitigate the range parameters.

At the cost of an action, which is worth remembering.

Aw, poor Dash.

Yeah, but really what would he rather spend his action doing: buffing his attack from 2 expected successes to 3 expected successes with target lock or focus, or pushing your ship out of his blind spot?

For that matter, as a defender you'd love not to be shot at. But if you can't manage to dodge Dash's HLC entirely, then forcing him to roll naked dice is the next best thing.

(Obviously he can mitigate the issue with upgrades, but now you're forcing your opponent to spend points to cover a weakness rather than emphasize a strength--and most of those upgrades can be covered or negated, too.)

Actually it emphasize its strenght, which is shooting with 4 dice at range 2+ every turn, that's the whole point. And spending points is very likely on an already expensive ship. You have to remember that pointing at the right direction while trying to get into the donut, is not that easy.

I had the pleasure of flying against Dash flown by a guy who knew a guy, a month or so ago. He tore me to shreds. Sure-sure, n=1 problem, but I think there is quite a lot of apprehension about Dash's arrival on the scene.

Back to the topic at hand, I'm not sure if Dash is the ultimate deterrence against the Phantom, or if he's an overcorrection. We won't really know 'till he really lands on the scene.

Still,...

...wait.

Don't you have a dissertation to write?

(I've been there, man. You've gotta bite the bullet and make it happen. I crawled my way to my defense, but I'm so glad I've got it done.)

(Obviously he can mitigate the issue with upgrades, but now you're forcing your opponent to spend points to cover a weakness rather than emphasize a strength--and most of those upgrades can be covered or negated, too.)

I'm having a Briar Rabbit moment here.

"Oh, puleaaaaze sir! Don' make me turn Dash into a triple-action boostin'-an-barrel rollin' machin'! That's be aaaaaaawful if I hadta do dat!"

Having multiple actions available to boost and barrel roll IS Dash's strength. Well, being able to throw a freight train at you every turn is a pretty good strength too, but the idea that you're somehow forcing your opponent into multiple actions for Dash is ludicrous.

And how do you force your opponent into spending points, anyway? Guido paying a visit the night before the tournament? Hack their Voidstate account for a moment of "What do you mean I put Push the Limit on Dash??" hilarity?

To all the people saying "it's not OP, you can work around it if you really try" - if working around it is significantly more difficult than working around other ships then isn't it overpowered?

(Obviously he can mitigate the issue with upgrades, but now you're forcing your opponent to spend points to cover a weakness rather than emphasize a strength--and most of those upgrades can be covered or negated, too.)

I'm having a Briar Rabbit moment here.

"Oh, puleaaaaze sir! Don' make me turn Dash into a triple-action boostin'-an-barrel rollin' machin'! That's be aaaaaaawful if I hadta do dat!"

Having multiple actions available to boost and barrel roll IS Dash's strength. Well, being able to throw a freight train at you every turn is a pretty good strength too, but the idea that you're somehow forcing your opponent into multiple actions for Dash is ludicrous.

And how do you force your opponent into spending points, anyway? Guido paying a visit the night before the tournament? Hack their Voidstate account for a moment of "What do you mean I put Push the Limit on Dash??" hilarity?

There's a reason why Song of the South has never been released on home video. Is perpetuating racial stereotypes really a good way to further your argument, or are you going to pretend like you're not being snarky again? I guess that's not really a fair question; I have a hard time taking you seriously either way.