but then again everyone is rocking Luke to counter Jammers now.

That's only a partial counter: the Jammer is still all but nullifying the Gunner effect.

But yeah, if you're wondering why the response to this thread was so... incendiary, it's because iterations of this thread have come up again and again and they're usually either screaming to outright ban the card, claim the game itself is being destroyed, strongly imply the game designers are crap at their jobs, offer nothing constructive in the slightest, provide no indication of what they're using against Falcons (instead calling it out in a total vacuum making it very difficult to suggest list alterations to help fight it) and/or generally claim the sky is falling. It's a touchy topic which all but polarises the community with its very mention, especially as it's played out over and over with various other lists and ships that lo and behold pretty much nobody bats an eyelid over nowadays.

If you're looking for list tips and tactics, then I'd make it very clear in the first post that that's what you're after. Otherwise you risk being lumped into the stereotype of players that want anything that causes them trouble deemed OP and banned from the game.

I suggested 3 Blues with HLCs and Advanced sensors a while back... you didn't see it?

This gives you a positional advantage with an action (kind of like a mini phantom, barrel roll then perform your move), or allows you to drop TLs before a K-turn 2. HLCs mean your cone of fire is throwing out 4 dice at all ranges. The idea is to pump as much fire power on a target as possible. Han and 3P0 are going to dodge 1+ whatever he can roll, but that's 12 dice a turn being thrown at the falcon's 1 agility die and agility token. That's not even considering Target Locks.

You'd be flying at PS2 but that doesn't matter since the Falcon isn't going to dodge out of your sights as easily as PtL Engine Dash for instance. Take it slow, forward 1s, and then let him have it when he's in range. B-Wings can take about two turns of punishing fire from a 3 attack ship in most circumstances, so your three B-Wings can probably make short work of anyone who stays in front of them.

This list is also going to be cheaper than running Defenders, and you'll have more cannons (3 PS1 defenders with HLCs come out to 111 points). Most often mentioned HLC Defender build I've heard of is 2x Delta HLCs with Jonus to provide re-rolls.

Yeah, 3 blue with HLC I've also been considering. However, i was hoping to use Imperial ships, and built this list specifically to take on Fat Han.

I see. Well, if you happen to have a lot of shuttles and don't like turning around, you could try three Omicrons with HLCs, tacticians, engine upgrades, and advanced sensors. There's even points to put Vader on one of them. Omicrons are the cheapest HLC carrying gunners out there. Best of all you have forward 1s and can throw han for a loop and just -Stop- to fire again at close range.

Alternatively, you could try Krassis and Kath with HLCs, Gunners, and give Kath Veteran instincts. You could also swap the gunners out for Tacticians to see if you can keep Han at range 2 and continually stress him out.

The go-to Imperial Navy heavy hitter in the phantom is going to be too vulnerable you see. Han will shoot first in the space where it's supposed to cloak after firing. Defenders are a little more survivable, but that two HLC list with Jonus leaves Jonus with a target on his back and loosing him brings you down to 2 PS1 Defenders. They're okay, but they aren't tanks and they can't do maneuver miracles like interceptors sporting PtL.

But in trying to bring C-3PO out of the equation know that he's going to be used to defend for one attack. Depending on your opponent he could use the ability on the first attack coming his way from any of your high PSes. Even if your highest skilled player isn't that great, someone with lower skill but a better attack can pounce and push through the maybe free evade token 3PO gives.

I took on a fat chewie with 3PO using the Jonas list it really wasn't that hard to keep fire on the falcon but because he evaded every **** turn and was ignoring my crits it did make it a very long game.

I wiped him out eventually but it was the longest least enjoyable games I've had this year, screw 3PO I say.

...I eneded up taking him apart with Tusken's cutting edge list (PS2s across the board, HLC Blues and Operative Ions).

Whose Cutting Edge list? (c;

Swarm isn't the best counter to Fat Han...swarm is the best counter to everything (besides the mythical unicorn that is the assault z swarm).

But swarm should be a pretty one sided match vs. Han, especially a 2 ship Han build. I can't fathom how your game went down the way you described: blocked him 3/4 firing rounds, lost a tie a round, and still lost... Mathematically improbable.

As for the OP, I think this is what's causing a lot of the frustration in the thread. If you flew as well as you believe you did, against the list you're describing, the result is in fact an improbable one--both in theory and in most of our experience. That's why I wondered, upthread, if your opponent was activating Threepio on every attack: with no Falcon title your opponent was canceling exactly one hit per round, which with a Howlrunner swarm is one hit out of the 9 or 10 you're dishing out.

If your opponent was designing an anti-swarm list, he or she frankly did a terrible job. I think if your played that match nine more times you'd win at least eight of them.

Otherwise, I think I'm about done trying to explain or defend Fat Falcons, not because I think I'm wrong but because it's exhausting. I'll say instead that I think pretty soon--that is, once we see the upgrade the designers hinted at in their GenCon interview for Interceptors and other highly-maneuverable ships--we'll be adding Interceptors to the (long) list of bad matchups for turret pancakes, and hopefully the profusion of posts like the OP can be out to bed.

lol

Calls me a troll...

...trolls the thread.

Oh, I see - pointing out the obvious and glaring failings that you have been making which have been apparent from page one to everyone who's posted is trolling, is it? It's obvious from even a cursory glance at your write up that Jan's ability was causing you far more problems than C3PO was - but you want to gloss over that little tidbit because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Here's a tip, OP. Ask for advice, ask for suggestions, ask for feedback and you'll probably find a lot of people happy to give you a pleasant and helpful response.

Jump onto a forum and immediately start QQ crybabying in your very first post about things which (in your myopic perspective) you think need to be "fixed", and you'll be treated with the contempt you deserve.

This -from a Falcon player- speaks volumes in itself.

Keywords; "horrendously effective", "forgiving" but "not invincible"

You should know the routine by now, elkerlyc.

I was about to reply with words and all but reconsidered.

Ooh, I missed a thread yesterday...

(reads thread, sees nothing new)

I would like to see those complaining about Threepio keep track of how often he actually triggers, aka when the Falcon play actually rolls an evade. Unless we want to start arguing about how people with hot dice should be banned. (I'm sure all victims of a one shot Fel would love it)

There are options. I personally would love to see how Han faces 2 HLC Defenders with Jonus back up. Good luck killing one of those ships before they fire. Or just two HLC Firesprays. Or Krassis with 3 Interceptors. Or my soon to be Lone Wolf Rexlar (mmmm, high hull).

I think people are looking for a Lt. Blount type counter. I doubt it is coming. And Turrets are a part of this game. You can yell as much as you want, but the Falcon has been a part of this game since Wave 2. And we are getting more Turret primaries. Obviously, the designers disagree that turrets are not part of the game.

I was about to reply with words and all but reconsidered...

You know you love it really.

I was about to reply with words and all but reconsidered...

You know you love it really.

Not really. I like you more when you actually explain yourself and use arguments.

I know you can. Saw posts like that. Liked them even.

But silly pics and claims of 'crying' without even a SHRED of actual crying.

For example the post you replied to like that:

Keywords; "horrendously effective", "forgiving" but "not invincible"

But so be it. You are what you are. I'll live with it.

(and with the fact the actual designers hinted in their GenCon interview at an upgrade for Interceptors and other highly manoeuvrable ships. They should be told 'less QQ, more pew pew perhaps? )

Can we please stop making a thread about doing something about a 3P0 Falcon every 2 days?

Oh and welcome!

We'll stop when the meta is no longer dominated by them, sound fair?

But silly pics and claims of 'crying' without even a SHRED of actual crying.

For example the post you replied to like that:

Oh dear. Someone clearly can't afford room in their squad for the "Sense Of Humour Upgrade" card. It's only 1 point as well. Maybe you should drop "Adrenaline Rush" to help make room?

(and with the fact the actual designers hinted in their GenCon interview at an upgrade for Interceptors and other highly manoeuvrable ships. They should be told 'less QQ, more pew pew perhaps? )

Mmm-hmm. an upgrade to arc dodgers to give them an(other) advantage against ALL turret-capable ships =/= banning or nerfing C3PO. Besides, I would never presume to tell the developers what they should or should not be doing. It astounds me that you think you can.

We'll stop when the meta is no longer dominated by them, sound fair?

Falcons started "dominating" the meta (if by dominating you mean becoming more and more common but not actually winning all that much) once the Wave 4 TIE Phantom was released. So I take it you'd be down with banning the Phantom then?

Yeah the numbers the OP is proposing are just weird.

For example he talks about not being able to kill a Fat Solo focusing it down with 6 Ties including Howlrunner while another one bumps it. Just to speak. The average hits at Range 2 from those, are 7,5 withouth including howlrunner, which we will ignore because of C3PO. If he happens to lose a Tie per turn (which is easilly doable, you guys are focusing too much in the negative side and trying to refute him, but you are forgetting the falcon companions), next turn it would be 6 damage, so 13,5 on average. Let's say he had a bad turn.

Well, he still said that he got to shoot this way at the falcon 3 turns. The odds of the fat solo surviving that sounds iffy.

I don't know, i had had games ,where i got a Fat Solo with 5 Academy pilots. Not amazing luck, but cycling Ties, bumping him, and trying as hard as possible to get as many of my ships into arc. I had lost some of those games too. Those who claim that swarm is a hard counter to a Fat Solo are wrong. It is a soft counter. It is like saying Fat Solo withouth VI is a hard counter to whisper. It isn't.

Your ballpark estimation is completely wrong. To gain 4 extra HP from C-3P0 you would have to be shot at under ideal circumstances (no extra evade dice) for 6-7 turns.

You are GARANTEED 1evade per turn. It does not take 6-7 turn to get 4 evades out of it. And even if you get 2 free evades out of it it's equivalent to 2 shields or 8 points worth. So dirt cheap.

Let's look at the imperial models that are obsolete against falcon:Tie interceptor (duh!)Tie fighter (relies on high evades negated by the 4-5att meta, and the 2att is useless against 3po).Tie bomber (same as tie fighter for offense, you'll survive a bit longer but wont have the firepower to take out han) This is very wrong.TIE interceptors are good against current Falcon setups because they're designed to kill a single z-95 equivalent at PS 11, and don't have the raw firepower to get through stacked focus + evade.

Interceptors good against fat han?? You must be joking. Those ships suffered against yts in wave3 and they get absolutely destroyed by them in wave4.

You must not have tried tie swarm against fat han. It does not work, see above. And that's the problem, it's supposed to be the counter.

Yea that's one evade versus 14 attack dice. Sure 2 of those might get negated, but then you still have 12 attack dice to throw at him.

I won't comment on Squints but you are just flat out wrong about swarm. It does work against Falcons.

We'll stop when the meta is no longer dominated by them, sound fair?

Fat Dash0rZ

We'll stop when the meta is no longer dominated by them, sound fair?

Then you're propagating the problem. Scream OP at the top of your lungs and people will believe you. And then they will consider buying Falcons and Tantives. Scream over and over and you'll drown out all the counterpoints and then they will buy Falcons and Tantives.

FFG doesn't bow to the loudest voice, so all people achieve with non-constructive "ban this" or "you're a WAAC player if you use this, you scum" threads are simply increasing the Falcon''s perceived power and thus its dominance.

You want to drive the Falcon off of its pedestal, propagate anti-Falcon builds and tactics, don't join the people reinforcing its position by shouting down any suggestion that it isn't overpowered or the tactics to defeat it.

Then you're propagating the problem. Scream OP at the top of your lungs and people will believe you. And then they will consider buying Falcons and Tantives. Scream over and over and you'll drown out all the counterpoints and then they will buy Falcons and Tantives.

FFG doesn't bow to the loudest voice, so all people achieve with non-constructive "ban this" or "you're a WAAC player if you use this, you scum" threads are simply increasing the Falcon''s perceived power and thus its dominance.

You want to drive the Falcon off of its pedestal, propagate anti-Falcon builds and tactics, don't join the people reinforcing its position by shouting down any suggestion that it isn't overpowered or the tactics to defeat it.

What's even more amusing is that the Fat Han builds aren't even that good. But you know what they say - perception = reality.

That's, like... your perception, man

What's QQ?

Also, do people have to make these discussions so personal? Someone thinks a ship's overpowered and you disagree, get over it.

You just need damage output. I've gone with the Buzzsaw Shuttle and Col. Vassery to great effect. The Shuttle puts a TL on the Falcon. Col. Vassery does a focus (and gets the free TL). Between the two of them I've done well in causing enough hits that I kill the Falcon in 3-4 turns.

Yeah the numbers the OP is proposing are just weird.

I agree, I ran some numbers last week for one of these threads. The falcon has to avoid at least 2 ties per turn to survive more then 3 rounds.

Also even with Jan helping, you shouldn't be losing a tie per round.

QQ equals an emote of two eyes crying.

Don't you see the beatiful teardrops ?

@VanorDM

Yeah when i posted i wasn't thinking on his lists, but the ones i face (Jan ors is just a weird choice, i would just pummel her first turn and be done with the extra damage while the falcon tries to take down 7 ties by himself). But even if he decides not to focus her, they are around 2.5 hits. So it is possible to say the least.

QQ equals an emote of two eyes crying.

Don't you see the beatiful teardrops ?

Those big, shiny dew-like droplets of indignant nerd rage...

We'll stop when the meta is no longer dominated by them, sound fair?

Then you're propagating the problem. Scream OP at the top of your lungs and people will believe you. And then they will consider buying Falcons and Tantives. Scream over and over and you'll drown out all the counterpoints and then they will buy Falcons and Tantives.

FFG doesn't bow to the loudest voice, so all people achieve with non-constructive "ban this" or "you're a WAAC player if you use this, you scum" threads are simply increasing the Falcon''s perceived power and thus its dominance.

You want to drive the Falcon off of its pedestal, propagate anti-Falcon builds and tactics, don't join the people reinforcing its position by shouting down any suggestion that it isn't overpowered or the tactics to defeat it.

Not once in any of these threads have i ever once screamed OP, go check.

My objection is that it stops players using the ships they want to such as the interceptor, it restricts choice when your building your list and thats a bad thing in my view.

The phantom has lots of viable counters people didn't have to rush out and get the falcon to counter it, but it was the easiest solution so it became the popular one, i've also never been a fan of the swarm.

I like dogfighting, i like the tactical aspect involved in planning your moves ahead of time and turrets ship largely negate any need for that.

You can kill falcons but when you are doing do more than your killing anything else thats an issue that needs looking at.

I agree, I ran some numbers last week for one of these threads. The falcon has to avoid at least 2 ties per turn to survive more then 3 rounds.

Also even with Jan helping, you shouldn't be losing a tie per round.

He mentioned blocking, so I assume he was at range 1 a lot. That's five attack dice, with Han's re-roll and Gunner (and Han's re-roll again). I can totally see that killing a TIE per turn. Not every turn, but many of them, maybe two out of three? If one of them doesn't get one shotted, he'll die next turn, and it's not like Han has to worry about keeping him in his arc.

QQ equals an emote of two eyes crying.

Looks more like LASER EYES! to me. Which is way cooler. Also, I don't think someone's having a sense-of-humour fail for reacting negatively when called a crybaby simply for expressing their displeasure with something. I think the person calling them a crybaby is being a bit of a hen.

HLC B-wing are a good idea for facing Fat Han, but I think a lot of people seem to have missed Innocent's point that 3P0 Falcons are having the effect of limiting viable IMPERIAL builds. This is true, and along with Whisper and Echo, wave 4 has created a sort of arms race that has most players using one of these archetypes most of the time. It is unquestionably a negative effect on a game that features squad building and customization so prominently.

Innocent, the forum has become pretty hostile over the few couple months, but it's mostly a small group of the same players causing it. They seem to love finding threads about topics they're sick of discussing and finding ways to call the OP a troll, rather than not reading it or not commenting. Ignore them.