Jesus wept, OP. Do you actually know how to do a forum search, or is this just a troll thread?

Let's look at the imperial models that are obsolete against falcon:

Phantom (duh!)

Tie interceptor (duh!)

Tie fighter (relies on high evades negated by the 4-5att meta, and the 2att is useless against 3po).

Tie bomber (same as tie fighter for offense, you'll survive a bit longer but wont have the firepower to take out han)

That's already 3 iconic imperial ships out of the game.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now I'm convinced this is a troll thread...

Thanks for visiting, the door is that way!

I suggested 3 Blues with HLCs and Advanced sensors a while back... you didn't see it?

This gives you a positional advantage with an action (kind of like a mini phantom, barrel roll then perform your move), or allows you to drop TLs before a K-turn 2. HLCs mean your cone of fire is throwing out 4 dice at all ranges. The idea is to pump as much fire power on a target as possible. Han and 3P0 are going to dodge 1+ whatever he can roll, but that's 12 dice a turn being thrown at the falcon's 1 agility die and agility token. That's not even considering Target Locks.

You'd be flying at PS2 but that doesn't matter since the Falcon isn't going to dodge out of your sights as easily as PtL Engine Dash for instance. Take it slow, forward 1s, and then let him have it when he's in range. B-Wings can take about two turns of punishing fire from a 3 attack ship in most circumstances, so your three B-Wings can probably make short work of anyone who stays in front of them.

This list is also going to be cheaper than running Defenders, and you'll have more cannons (3 PS1 defenders with HLCs come out to 111 points). Most often mentioned HLC Defender build I've heard of is 2x Delta HLCs with Jonus to provide re-rolls.

You're right on:

Phantom - It's got to have some weaknesses.
TIE interceptor - can turtle surprisingly well, but yes, is fairly weak. FFG has something in the works though.

You're wrong on:

TIE fighter - Yes, it has two dice, but there's more than one of them and the Falcon can only 3PO once per round. The Falcon eats one TIE's shot with 3PO, possibly a second with the evade token if the TIEs roll badly, and then the rest are shooting at an unbuffed Falcon defence.
TIE bomber - Why are you taking a TIE bomber if you haven't armed it? Bombers and ordnance can deal huge amounts of damage to a Falcon.

Hi Innocent

I've tried playing the lists you put up.
And loving the rebels I had to let my good sense go out the window.

following the movement you described i went for "Jan Ors" with the Obsidian Swarm and let the Academy Pilot be a target for "Han" But i got in at range 1-2 with the swarm and took out "Jan Ors" in One turn. And Lost my Academy Pilot to "Han" He got 2 Krit that gave him. Damage *2. Boom and he was dust....

The following turns i got up close and personal with the falcon an it took 4 turns to beat it Down, but Down it went, and yes I suffered hard. Hits on all ships and only 2 left to limber out after the fight.....

So my Question to you is ( baring in mind that i do not know you and am not trying to piXX you off.).

Do you have a battle plan in mind when you setup or do you let your opponent decide how and where to engage.

I find it helps to have a plan when you setup, and then adapt when all the ships are placed.

Yeah the whole point of ttie bomber is that its 'all your eggs in one basket' but if you get lucky you can take down anything with a well loaded one.

You don't even have to, but taking a TIE bomber with nothing at all... I'm sure Juggler's probably going to chime in and say it's actually pretty good like that but it's hardly the intended use of the thing and thus unfair to write it off on an assumption that it's only used for that.

Maybe. I am very concerned about Dash, i've seen some horrible "camp the backfield behind a rock with an HLC, Kyle and PTL" builds. I have no idea how a swarm would deal with that, it's just going to push the meta even more into 2 godmode ships territory.

Dash's problem isn't camping behind a rock and shooting at range. Dash's problem is being allowed to go wherever he wishes, practically ignoring stress (and Ions basically... I've felt Ions sucked exactly because they still allowed these kinds of actions), and having a turret with a high attack power. On a large base of all things. He's slippery to pin down and can hit you at range with the highest attack power in the game.

Now there are probbaly some counters to be found eventually. Maybe the Decimator or space pirates will give us some tools to drag Dash back down. At the moment though he's worth more concern than HanPO. HanPO at least you can line up and shoot, and he has an evade but he'll spend it if you throw enough sice at him. Dash? You might not even have him in arc.

And some feel this is pushing turrets too far in a game that should be about position. FFG should know this, so I don't think they allowed this to happen without some counters in mind.

Hi Innocent

I find it helps to have a plan when you setup, and then adapt when all the ships are placed.

Rule no1 of real warfare. Have a clear intent/aim.. be mindful of that aim and do not be 'reactive', concentrate available force to achieve that aim.

Commanders in history who forget that tend to suffer epic defeats.

At the risk of Godwinning... Hitler lost WWII largely because he kept switching his main aim so often.

For example in the battle of britain he stopped hammering uk airfields and went after manufacturing at a point where one more day of attrition would have seen the RAF on its knees.. swapping to bombing factories gave them the respite they needed. A second example would be the Russian front, he couldnt decide if he wanted Moscow, Stalingrad or a the Caucasus oil fields and kept changing the 'schwerpunkt' of his armies (the concentration of force).

You have to have a plan and you can *adapt* that plan to feature/counter enemy plans but if your plan consists of 'reacting to threats' then you deserve to have rings ran around you.

You should, like in any wargame and especially in chess, have a plan that forces the enemy to split his concentration of force up.

Killing Falcons with swarms is definitely doable, actually, almost easy. I seriously do not see your problem. My swarms have chewed through Fat Hans in the past and I have lost my own Fat Han to a variety of different lists (Corran Horn, 3x Bounty Hunters, my own incompetence, swarms). Fat Han is defeatable and the swarm is the hard counter in theory and practice.

Are you seriously thinking that all these people are delusional or outright lying when they are trying to tell you that they managed to down Fat Han with swarms?

Also, you said you were losing 1 Tie Fighter per round. How do you manage to do that? They got three green dice and with a focus and an evade you need a good piece of bad luck to lose a TIE Fighter to a Falcon in one shot. And losing one Tie Fighter per turn to One-Shots? Seriously?

Thanks for visiting, the door is that way!

Yes it is, feel free to use it, don't let it hit your backside on the way out.

Yeah i mean i consider 'evade' to be the default action on a TIE unless i'm out of any fire arcs and have a shot lined up.

I might put a HanP0 list on the table tonight and see if the wife can take it down with an 8 tie swarm (i'll have to proxy a couple of TIes though) or a howlswarm.

Not knocking the wife but she's not a hardcore wargamer or super tactician (she plays pretty well though) and i'd guess that if she doesnt find it 'unbeatable' then thats a good indication as she lectures statistics at a university and is pretty good with the 'maths' side of games. especially if she can see it in a practical context.

Dash's problem isn't camping behind a rock and shooting at range. Dash's problem is being allowed to go wherever he wishes, practically ignoring stress (and Ions basically... I've felt Ions sucked exactly because they still allowed these kinds of actions), and having a turret with a high attack power. On a large base of all things. He's slippery to pin down and can hit you at range with the highest attack power in the game.

Now there are probbaly some counters to be found eventually.

Block him to stop his actions, stress him to curb his maneuverability, spread your arcs out to give him no escape. C-3PO isn't nearly as effective on him, he costs a ton of points, and get to R1 and he can't touch you.

Plus Wave 5 we'll have the VT-49, which is plenty competent against YTs of both types and yet itself is a fair fight against most other lists.

Also, you said you were losing 1 Tie Fighter per round. How do you manage to do that? They got three green dice and with a focus and an evade you need a good piece of bad luck to lose a TIE Fighter to a Falcon in one shot. And losing one Tie Fighter per turn to One-Shots? Seriously?

Digging through all the whinging, foot stomping and pouting, it seems as though the OP was suffering more issues from Jan's ability than from 3PO's. Obviously OP! Maybei nerf/banz HWK tu?

This thread is now about discussing what the OP did wrong, and what he should do differently.

I'll start: Making their first post on the forum a whingefest = bad idea.

Also, you said you were losing 1 Tie Fighter per round. How do you manage to do that? They got three green dice and with a focus and an evade you need a good piece of bad luck to lose a TIE Fighter to a Falcon in one shot. And losing one Tie Fighter per turn to One-Shots? Seriously?

Digging through all the whinging, foot stomping and pouting, it seems as though the OP was suffering more issues from Jan's ability than from 3PO's. Obviously OP! Maybei nerf/banz HWK tu?

This thread is now about discussing what the OP did wrong, and what he should do differently.

I'll start: Making their first post on the forum a whingefest = bad idea.

lol

Calls me a troll...

...trolls the thread.

golf clap

Now if you don't have anything mature to add to the topic, get out.

Hi Innocent

I've tried playing the lists you put up.

And loving the rebels I had to let my good sense go out the window.

following the movement you described i went for "Jan Ors" with the Obsidian Swarm and let the Academy Pilot be a target for "Han" But i got in at range 1-2 with the swarm and took out "Jan Ors" in One turn. And Lost my Academy Pilot to "Han" He got 2 Krit that gave him. Damage *2. Boom and he was dust....

The following turns i got up close and personal with the falcon an it took 4 turns to beat it Down, but Down it went, and yes I suffered hard. Hits on all ships and only 2 left to limber out after the fight.....

So my Question to you is ( baring in mind that i do not know you and am not trying to piXX you off.).

Do you have a battle plan in mind when you setup or do you let your opponent decide how and where to engage.

I find it helps to have a plan when you setup, and then adapt when all the ships are placed.

Yes I do, I have a few couple of deployment templates I use and opening moves designed to meet the opposition head on.

I had to fiddle a bit in this game as he didn't come at me directly, but I still met him head on, just a bit later in the turns.

Thanks for your input.

To be fair....

Jumping onto a board with a 'this is broken' post that has already been the subject of a thread about five times at least *wasnt* the best way to start.

Whenever I join a new forum i always try and lurk for a day or two, read the majority of the weeks posts and guage the tone/humour level of the forum before posting anything too confrontational.

I can appreciate this is a big issue for the OP, hence feeling the need to post a complaint up but for a lot of the people on here (and i've only been on for a month or two and i'm sick of em..) 'fat han' threads are just the same old circular argument.

You can perhaps understand why some of the 'old hands' on here are a little facetious when replying.

I'd have to add though that joining the forum and laying down the law is probably not a great way to make friends and influence people either....

You're right on:

Phantom - It's got to have some weaknesses.

TIE interceptor - can turtle surprisingly well, but yes, is fairly weak. FFG has something in the works though.

You're wrong on:

TIE fighter - Yes, it has two dice, but there's more than one of them and the Falcon can only 3PO once per round. The Falcon eats one TIE's shot with 3PO, possibly a second with the evade token if the TIEs roll badly, and then the rest are shooting at an unbuffed Falcon defence.

TIE bomber - Why are you taking a TIE bomber if you haven't armed it? Bombers and ordnance can deal huge amounts of damage to a Falcon.

I agree with the assessment that Fighters and Bombers have a chance (at least it's not the suicide mission that Interceptors and Phantoms go for), however in practice it is much harder than that. Why, someone called me a low skilled player up there just for trying to keep all my ships pointed at Han and hitting the APL, so you can see that there is a lot of contradiction going on...

Thanks for your input otherwise

Dash's problem isn't camping behind a rock and shooting at range. Dash's problem is being allowed to go wherever he wishes, practically ignoring stress (and Ions basically... I've felt Ions sucked exactly because they still allowed these kinds of actions), and having a turret with a high attack power. On a large base of all things. He's slippery to pin down and can hit you at range with the highest attack power in the game.

Now there are probbaly some counters to be found eventually.

Block him to stop his actions, stress him to curb his maneuverability, spread your arcs out to give him no escape. C-3PO isn't nearly as effective on him, he costs a ton of points, and get to R1 and he can't touch you.

Plus Wave 5 we'll have the VT-49, which is plenty competent against YTs of both types and yet itself is a fair fight against most other lists.

For the purposes of this discussion, let's use this list:

Pain in the Dash (99)

Dash Rendar // Outrider / HLC / Kyle Katarn / Push the Limit / Engine Upgrade / Ion Pulse missile

2x Green Squadron Pilot // Wingman / Chardaan Refit

Shotgun your TIEs: Dash makes his movement, stops short of blocking, TL+Focus, fires HLC at one TIE for maximum output. That is, if he doesn't find a way to barrel roll, boost, or in reverse order to evade a firing arc. He could just choose barrel roll, or boost, and the other action would be to TL. Since you shotgunned your TIEs, they aren't all going to be facing the right direction to shoot back.

Fanned firing arcs: Without concentrating your fire your hope is that the chance arc Dash falls into is a good shot. If Dash sees it coming he'll pick focus as his action and receive another one from Kyle, as well as rolling out to range 3 for another green.

Stress 'em: Dash makes a green move, gains a focus for removing a stress (Kyle), and his two wingmen clear up to two more. Dash PTLs again to barrel roll and boosts away from your ship to avoid collisions and be out of arc.

Getting into R1: He'll see it coming, Barrel rolls and boosts away to get to range 2-3. Anyone who isn't higher than a PS 7 is not going to be able to pin (or escape from) Dash that easily.

All of this is of course, situational, and there could be conditions where none of the moves will resolve. But these easy answers are possible in theory only if you have fortunate positioning down to be able to catch Dash at the right moment. Dash's power comes from being able to decide his movement closer to the combat phase than every other ship. It's an area previously enjoyed by PTL interceptors, Soontir Fel, Tycho, and the Phantoms. Unlike those ships Dash is not a glass cannon.

He's not unbeatable, it's just obnoxiously tough on paper and simple to fly. All you need to worry about is not colliding with enemy plastic when it comes to moving your ship, and then fire four dice at the target of your choice.

To be fair....

Jumping onto a board with a 'this is broken' post that has already been the subject of a thread about five times at least *wasnt* the best way to start.

Whenever I join a new forum i always try and lurk for a day or two, read the majority of the weeks posts and guage the tone/humour level of the forum before posting anything too confrontational.

I can appreciate this is a big issue for the OP, hence feeling the need to post a complaint up but for a lot of the people on here (and i've only been on for a month or two and i'm sick of em..) 'fat han' threads are just the same old circular argument.

You can perhaps understand why some of the 'old hands' on here are a little facetious when replying.

I'd have to add though that joining the forum and laying down the law is probably not a great way to make friends and influence people either....

Of course.

However, that doesn't excuse the trolling. Make a fair and reasonable comment or criticism, you'll get a fair and reasonable response. Troll me, I won't turn the other cheek...

No one is forcing anyone to post.

No ones forcing anyone but that never stops anyone on here...

a few of us (like me) have too much time on our hands and stick our ore in at everything

(the perils of working from home and actually having nothing much to do this week)

I'd suggest, in all seriousness before extending this thread to have a look at the several other fat han/phantom/meta broken threads as you'll probably find all the arguments so far put forwards over the last month and also see who agrees with you.

I suggested 3 Blues with HLCs and Advanced sensors a while back... you didn't see it?

This gives you a positional advantage with an action (kind of like a mini phantom, barrel roll then perform your move), or allows you to drop TLs before a K-turn 2. HLCs mean your cone of fire is throwing out 4 dice at all ranges. The idea is to pump as much fire power on a target as possible. Han and 3P0 are going to dodge 1+ whatever he can roll, but that's 12 dice a turn being thrown at the falcon's 1 agility die and agility token. That's not even considering Target Locks.

You'd be flying at PS2 but that doesn't matter since the Falcon isn't going to dodge out of your sights as easily as PtL Engine Dash for instance. Take it slow, forward 1s, and then let him have it when he's in range. B-Wings can take about two turns of punishing fire from a 3 attack ship in most circumstances, so your three B-Wings can probably make short work of anyone who stays in front of them.

This list is also going to be cheaper than running Defenders, and you'll have more cannons (3 PS1 defenders with HLCs come out to 111 points). Most often mentioned HLC Defender build I've heard of is 2x Delta HLCs with Jonus to provide re-rolls.

Yeah, 3 blue with HLC I've also been considering. However, i was hoping to use Imperial ships, and built this list specifically to take on Fat Han.

I have played the Big Bird build in several games since seeing it at Gen-Con and even against great swarm players it is horrendously effective, and forgiving. It has won probably nine out of ten, (the one loss being a forfeit as I had screwed up a turn really bad with a bad maneuver choice AND a poor action choice along with the rest of my squad screwing the hell up critical turn) and I'm not even that good with it as far as I believe. If there are really this many counters, when I think critically about the situation, see all the out cry, see my play data, see tourney postings, then I have to conclude it's about as broken as it comes right now. Defend it all you want but I so far I have been less than impressed with the arguments brought against its "OPness". Is it invincible? No. Obviously from the same data there have been losses. But the ratio speaks for itself.

This -from a Falcon player- speaks volumes in itself.

Keywords; "horrendously effective", "forgiving" but "not invincible"

No ones forcing anyone but that never stops anyone on here...

a few of us (like me) have too much time on our hands and stick our ore in at everything

(the perils of working from home and actually having nothing much to do this week)

I'd suggest, in all seriousness before extending this thread to have a look at the several other fat han/phantom/meta broken threads as you'll probably find all the arguments so far put forwards over the last month and also see who agrees with you.

To be fair I have no intention of extending the thread, I am thankful to the people who have made good contributions. There have been a few good ideas thrown around, I've had some support and some detractors, and the trolls can go to hell

I suggested 3 Blues with HLCs and Advanced sensors a while back... you didn't see it?

This gives you a positional advantage with an action (kind of like a mini phantom, barrel roll then perform your move), or allows you to drop TLs before a K-turn 2. HLCs mean your cone of fire is throwing out 4 dice at all ranges. The idea is to pump as much fire power on a target as possible. Han and 3P0 are going to dodge 1+ whatever he can roll, but that's 12 dice a turn being thrown at the falcon's 1 agility die and agility token. That's not even considering Target Locks.

You'd be flying at PS2 but that doesn't matter since the Falcon isn't going to dodge out of your sights as easily as PtL Engine Dash for instance. Take it slow, forward 1s, and then let him have it when he's in range. B-Wings can take about two turns of punishing fire from a 3 attack ship in most circumstances, so your three B-Wings can probably make short work of anyone who stays in front of them.

This list is also going to be cheaper than running Defenders, and you'll have more cannons (3 PS1 defenders with HLCs come out to 111 points). Most often mentioned HLC Defender build I've heard of is 2x Delta HLCs with Jonus to provide re-rolls.

Yeah, 3 blue with HLC I've also been considering. However, i was hoping to use Imperial ships, and built this list specifically to take on Fat Han.

I see. Well, if you happen to have a lot of shuttles and don't like turning around, you could try three Omicrons with HLCs, tacticians, engine upgrades, and advanced sensors. There's even points to put Vader on one of them. Omicrons are the cheapest HLC carrying gunners out there. Best of all you have forward 1s and can throw han for a loop and just -Stop- to fire again at close range.

Alternatively, you could try Krassis and Kath with HLCs, Gunners, and give Kath Veteran instincts. You could also swap the gunners out for Tacticians to see if you can keep Han at range 2 and continually stress him out.

The go-to Imperial Navy heavy hitter in the phantom is going to be too vulnerable you see. Han will shoot first in the space where it's supposed to cloak after firing. Defenders are a little more survivable, but that two HLC list with Jonus leaves Jonus with a target on his back and loosing him brings you down to 2 PS1 Defenders. They're okay, but they aren't tanks and they can't do maneuver miracles like interceptors sporting PtL.

But in trying to bring C-3PO out of the equation know that he's going to be used to defend for one attack. Depending on your opponent he could use the ability on the first attack coming his way from any of your high PSes. Even if your highest skilled player isn't that great, someone with lower skill but a better attack can pounce and push through the maybe free evade token 3PO gives.

lol

Calls me a troll...

...trolls the thread.

Oh, I see - pointing out the obvious and glaring failings that you have been making which have been apparent from page one to everyone who's posted is trolling, is it? It's obvious from even a cursory glance at your write up that Jan's ability was causing you far more problems than C3PO was - but you want to gloss over that little tidbit because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Here's a tip, OP. Ask for advice, ask for suggestions, ask for feedback and you'll probably find a lot of people happy to give you a pleasant and helpful response.

Jump onto a forum and immediately start QQ crybabying in your very first post about things which (in your myopic perspective) you think need to be "fixed", and you'll be treated with the contempt you deserve.

This -from a Falcon player- speaks volumes in itself.

Keywords; "horrendously effective", "forgiving" but "not invincible"

You should know the routine by now, elkerlyc.