Wedge is mean to fat Han.

I'm curious, just what is it that OP's innocent of?

Also: Han + Expose = no Threepio. Bad combo is bad.

I was just going to post that. Thank you. It makes no sense to put expose and C3P0 on the same ship, you are basically nullifying an upgrade card.

Fat han really isnt a problem. Lists I have beaten Han with (against various opponents of varying skill):

3 RGPs and Darkcurse (gasp)

2 RGPs and Echo (double gasp)

Echo, bomber, Vessery

Echo, Doomshuttle, Vessery (hilarious once the shields are gone)

Rexler and Vessery (one of the most fun to play)

2 daggers with HLCs and Jan (Oh you have 4 dice attacks? Here is 9 dice from 2 cannons with no range mods)

Luke, Etahn, and 2 bandits (cause crits eat that baby up)

Luke, 2 SJ Blackmoons (SJ is amazing at stopping Hans ability)

Ok... I am going to stop there, anyways... I have about a 14-4 win/lose to Fat Han lists. I actually love the meta right now because everyone is playing it so I know what to do to counter it. My local group though is more experimental and constantly tries new things and I am so thankful for that.

The swarm is literally the easy mode to beat Han, so not sure why you are having such a problem. Possibly start taking evade (you have a reroll from howl) and keeping ships other than 1-2 blockers away from range 1 of the falcon (range is better for the defender against a falcon). Best of luck to you, but it sounds like it seems to be more of a personal issue then a game balancing one.

What the game probably needs are ways for cheaper ordinance carriers to be able to drop their locks on targets later on in the round. That way things like Bombers and Y-Wings can be real threats to these higher-skilled pilots by throwing tons of missiles at them and blowing them up.

Right now that design space is filled with HLCs (taking away TLs and one-shots), but it doesn't have to be the only viable high-dice secondary.

A change to how missile works would be great, at the moment cannons and turrwts are just clearly the superior option. There are too many hoops you need to jump through to make missiles useful, at their current power level at least.

Ordinance is all one-shot but there's still more variety in damage output at cheaper costs than just packing HLCs on everything and using Ions as 360' damage dealers (Since Blaster turrets are a joke outside of blaster HWKs). Flichette torpedoes for instance are great ways to deal stress regardless if you've hit or not, and are good counters to Interceptors and other low-hull craft that are dependent on actions. I agree for damage output though, most players turn to other kinds of weapons.

But I think you're wrong in insisting how hard this list is to counter. The PtL Dash Outrider build with HLC and Kyle is something to be concerned about. With 3PO blocking one attack I don't see how this is as tanky and difficult as you're saying it is.

No prob Innocent. If your looking for a good counter, the most insanely good one I've had to stare down while flying big bird was a Whisper with Sensor Jammer and Rebel Captive, Veteran Instincts and Advanced Cloak, with a mini swarm. This setup is viable on its own anyway, and takes a ship the Falcon with title is supposed to be good against and kind of turns it against it. I almost have to shoot it with Han to have a chance, so by default he pretty much always will be stressed and if I can't clear it, the title can't help me live. Not to mention that in order to hit your Phantom anyway I have to Focus to counter your Sensor Jammer, so I still have to clear the stress off. Even though I won I felt like if things had gone differently with the swarm I could of bit the dust. That was the game I forfeited. Won the next one against the same list but that was after I figured out the hard way what I needed to do.

And I support your ignore iPeregrine stance. I think he/she is the same one we had trouble with on the DakkaDakka Forums. Eerily similar name and writing...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....hmmm...hmmmmmmm :/..........hm. Maybe it's nothing.

I'm curious, just what is it that OP's innocent of?

Also: Han + Expose = no Threepio. Bad combo is bad.

I was just going to post that. Thank you. It makes no sense to put expose and C3P0 on the same ship, you are basically nullifying an upgrade card.

Fat han really isnt a problem. Lists I have beaten Han with (against various opponents of varying skill):

3 RGPs and Darkcurse (gasp)

2 RGPs and Echo (double gasp)

Echo, bomber, Vessery

Echo, Doomshuttle, Vessery (hilarious once the shields are gone)

Rexler and Vessery (one of the most fun to play)

2 daggers with HLCs and Jan (Oh you have 4 dice attacks? Here is 9 dice from 2 cannons with no range mods)

Luke, Etahn, and 2 bandits (cause crits eat that baby up)

Luke, 2 SJ Blackmoons (SJ is amazing at stopping Hans ability)

Ok... I am going to stop there, anyways... I have about a 14-4 win/lose to Fat Han lists. I actually love the meta right now because everyone is playing it so I know what to do to counter it. My local group though is more experimental though and constantly tries new things and I am so thankful for that.

The swarm is literally the easy mode to beat Han, so not sure why you are having such a problem. Possibly start taking evade (you have a reroll from howl) and keeping ships other than 1-2 blockers away from range 1 of the falcon (range is better for the defender against a falcon). Best of luck to you, but it sounds like it seems to be more of a personal issue then a game balancing one.

I will keep trying, i'm just not enjoying it as much as i was in wave3, where to me player decision and ultimately skill meant more.

Yes it does upset me a little to have $400 of mini i don't enjoy playing anymore. Nothing personnal against anyone here though.

No prob Innocent. If your looking for a good counter, the most insanely good one I've had to stare down while flying big bird was a Whisper with Sensor Jammer and Rebel Captive, Veteran Instincts and Advanced Cloak, with a mini swarm. This setup is viable on its own anyway, and takes a ship the Falcon with title is supposed to be good against and kind of turns it against it. I almost have to shoot it with Han to have a chance, so by default he pretty much always will be stressed and if I can't clear it, the title can't help me live. Not to mention that in order to hit your Phantom anyway I have to Focus to counter your Sensor Jammer, so I still have to clear the stress off. Even though I won I felt like if things had gone differently with the swarm I could of bit the dust. That was the game I forfeited. Won the next one against the same list but that was after I figured out the hard way what I needed to do.

And I support your ignore iPeregrine stance. I think he/she is the same one we had trouble with on the DakkaDakka Forums. Eerily similar name and writing...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....hmmm...hmmmmmmm :/..........hm. Maybe it's nothing.

Wedge is mean to fat Han.

He is but he isn't. Yes 3PO can't interefere when Wedge is attacking, but he can on anyone elses attack. If you are only attacking Han with Wedge you aren't going to bring him down quicker then he and his escorts will get you. So unless you are a list full of Outmanuver or are talking about an end game situation, Wedge's ability doesn't bother Fat Han much, he will just use 3PO on the next attack.

As explained by those in the thread that aren't on tilt over losing one game, you deal with Fat Han by putting as much attack dice on him as you can. You'd prefer it in big chunks ( HLCs etc) as that means he fishes for that single green die less often, but the sheer weight of fire a swarm can put out due to it high attack to point ratio can compensate for the un-modfied defense rolls he gets. If properly applied. Just because you put the list down on the board that doesn't mean Han will just curl up and die. But it is still very much your game to lose as you have the advantage. Squader it and you could very well lose, but that's why we play the game at all right?

What the game probably needs are ways for cheaper ordinance carriers to be able to drop their locks on targets later on in the round. That way things like Bombers and Y-Wings can be real threats to these higher-skilled pilots by throwing tons of missiles at them and blowing them up.

Right now that design space is filled with HLCs (taking away TLs and one-shots), but it doesn't have to be the only viable high-dice secondary.

A change to how missile works would be great, at the moment cannons and turrwts are just clearly the superior option. There are too many hoops you need to jump through to make missiles useful, at their current power level at least.

Ordinance is all one-shot but there's still more variety in damage output at cheaper costs than just packing HLCs on everything and using Ions as 360' damage dealers (Since Blaster turrets are a joke outside of blaster HWKs). Flichette torpedoes for instance are great ways to deal stress regardless if you've hit or not, and are good counters to Interceptors and other low-hull craft that are dependent on actions. I agree for damage output though, most players turn to other kinds of weapons.

But I think you're wrong in insisting how hard this list is to counter. The PtL Dash Outrider build with HLC and Kyle is something to be concerned about. With 3PO blocking one attack I don't see how this is as tanky and difficult as you're saying it is.

Maybe. I am very concerned about Dash, i've seen some horrible "camp the backfield behind a rock with an HLC, Kyle and PTL" builds. I have no idea how a swarm would deal with that, it's just going to push the meta even more into 2 godmode ships territory.

Thats the thing though, its all about how you fly now. You can make Echo almost always take 1-2 hits a turn, basically turning him into a sacrificial lamb. While he gets focused down, you get good damage output, meaning by the time echo is dead Han will be close to dead, so a 38ish point investment to take down the majority of 60+, sounds like a fair trade to me. I believe you need to experiment with new ways of flying and start thinking outside of the box. No reason to call it quits just because one list, and one list that hasn't been winning a lot of tournaments (though placing high).

but then again everyone is rocking Luke to counter Jammers now.

You don't use Luke to counter jammers, you use Luke to give an offense boost that doesn't rely on using an action. With Luke and predator you effectively have focus + target lock and you still have your action free to evade with the title card. Sensor jammer is still a good counter for two reasons:

1) Luke doesn't work on the first shot. So on that first shot Han automatically loses a hit (you always take evade, not focus, for your action) that he can't re-roll, which puts everything on the second shot where a miss is the end of Han's shooting.

2) Luke only changes one eye to a hit. If Han rolls an eye in addition to the one from sensor jammer it might as well be a blank. So now that second shot isn't even all that effective.

This is the last game i played against Fat Han, he had:

Han

Veteran Instinct

Luke

C3p0

Anti pursuit laser

Jan Ors

Predator

Blaster Turret

Moldy crow

nien numb

Shield upgrade

Just wondering about the Jan, Luke/Gunner interaction. Guessing the extra dice only goes to one of the attacks, not both Tricky call to make.

Not going to lie, been rocking Nimble Dash a ton since Gen-Con and it's absolutely disgusting. It's more defendable then the Falcon could ever be, and cranks out more damage and way faster at it. Often getting turn one Target Locked shots off a 3-Bank+Barrel roll+Target lock for turn two de-stress setup. Almost every attack is going out as three hits if not four. I need to play with and against it more before I figure out a way to actually hunt it down. Current thinking is Prox mines hurt like a b****. And oh look! There're plenty coming with Scum!

Just wondering about the Jan, Luke/Gunner interaction. Guessing the extra dice only goes to one of the attacks, not both Tricky call to make.

It's not tricky at all. Jan's ability clearly only applies to one of the two attacks.

Wedge is mean to fat Han.

He is but he isn't. Yes 3PO can't interefere when Wedge is attacking, but he can on anyone elses attack. If you are only attacking Han with Wedge you aren't going to bring him down quicker then he and his escorts will get you. So unless you are a list full of Outmanuver or are talking about an end game situation, Wedge's ability doesn't bother Fat Han much, he will just use 3PO on the next attack.

As explained by those in the thread that aren't on tilt over losing one game, you deal with Fat Han by putting as much attack dice on him as you can. You'd prefer it in big chunks ( HLCs etc) as that means he fishes for that single green die less often, but the sheer weight of fire a swarm can put out due to it high attack to point ratio can compensate for the un-modfied defense rolls he gets. If properly applied. Just because you put the list down on the board that doesn't mean Han will just curl up and die. But it is still very much your game to lose as you have the advantage. Squader it and you could very well lose, but that's why we play the game at all right?

I have updated my original post with a more detailed account of the battle, since people seem to think i can't fly a swarm for squat and my flying caused me to loose the game. I had him in front of a 6 strong Howl block and he got awat with it, despite being blocked 3 times. Make your own call.

Then you got crappy dice. Justo run the numbers.

"It's everything else's fault but my own."

Hey Innocent, welcome to the forums. We played each other in the TC galactic cup.

I haven't faced a Fat Han list yet, but my I used Vessery+HLC+Outmaneuver with Scimitars+SC recently against a somewhat portly Chewie and it did really well, getting 4 hits pretty much every turn. He didn't have C3P0 but if he did it wouldn't helped him with Vessery's attacks.

It would however have helped him against the Scimitars so that point is rather moot.

Then you got crappy dice. Justo run the numbers.

This. Let's assume range 2 with your whole formation getting to shoot. Howlrunner's shot is negated by C-3P0, leaving the other 5 TIEs to shoot normally. Each TIE averages ~1.875 hits (assuming focus + Howlrunner). Naked evade dice on a Falcon negates 0.375 of each of those hits, leaving an average of 1.5 damage per TIE. With five non-Howlrunner TIEs you're doing 7.5 damage per turn, enough to kill Han in two turns of shooting with a decent error margin for bad dice.

And of course if you get into range 1 it's even worse for Han. He probably won't one-shot a TIE (especially if you're smart enough to let one damage through instead of facing a gunner attack), so all this really does is make the Falcon take even more damage. Those extra six attack dice take the average damage dangerously close to killing a Falcon in a single turn of shooting, and that's not even considering double-damage crits. The Falcon is going to need above-average dice luck just to survive that situation with enough HP left to have even a small chance of winning the game.

Jesus wept, OP. Do you actually know how to do a forum search, or is this just a troll thread?

Let's look at the imperial models that are obsolete against falcon:
Phantom (duh!)
Tie interceptor (duh!)
Tie fighter (relies on high evades negated by the 4-5att meta, and the 2att is useless against 3po).
Tie bomber (same as tie fighter for offense, you'll survive a bit longer but wont have the firepower to take out han)
That's already 3 iconic imperial ships out of the game.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now I'm convinced this is a troll thread...

Honestly, the best counter against falcon C3P0 MFtitle is your own falcon C3P0 MFtitle

If you could spend that kind of $$$ to buy the Tantive just for that C3P0, then by all means you should deserve the win.

This is the last game i played against Fat Han, he had:

Han

Veteran Instinct

Luke

C3p0

Anti pursuit laser

I don't see the point of having Han (PS9) + Veteran Instinct (=PS11) + Anti pursuit laser. Is having PS11 so important? But moreover, most probably Han is moving last. What use can have the anti pursuit lasers? Nobody's going to cross the MF base... Or am I playing the APL wrong?

I don't see the point of having Han (PS9) + Veteran Instinct (=PS11) + Anti pursuit laser. Is having PS11 so important? But moreover, most probably Han is moving last. What use can have the anti pursuit lasers? Nobody's going to cross the MF base... Or am I playing the APL wrong?

No, you're correct. APL only works if the other ship rams you, it does absolutely nothing if you ram them. So at PS 11 the only ships APL will work against are other PS 9 pilots with VI. IOW, it's a waste of points and a modification slot.

(Unless of course you're hoping to get lucky and have your opponent fly straight into an obvious ship that hasn't moved since they set their maneuver dial. But this should be a very rare event unless you're playing against low-skill opponents.)

I don't see the point of having Han (PS9) + Veteran Instinct (=PS11) + Anti pursuit laser. Is having PS11 so important? But moreover, most probably Han is moving last. What use can have the anti pursuit lasers? Nobody's going to cross the MF base... Or am I playing the APL wrong?

It's a point filler, not really a key feature in the list. And if he manages to have even one ship not shoot at him because of it, it has repaid it's points.

Hey Innocent, welcome to the forums. We played each other in the TC galactic cup.

I haven't faced a Fat Han list yet, but my I used Vessery+HLC+Outmaneuver with Scimitars+SC recently against a somewhat portly Chewie and it did really well, getting 4 hits pretty much every turn. He didn't have C3P0 but if he did it wouldn't helped him with Vessery's attacks.