why the build? seriously though... what does the 5xobsidian do for you that 5xacadamy wouldn't? why adrenaline rush? that is 6 points of whyTF?

perfect positioning? you should have been shoving ps1 academy pilots in his face (bumping) denying him actions and focus firing with the rest.

swarm still kills falcons. 1 agility still sucks.

You are GARANTEED 1evade per turn. It does not take 6-7 turn to get 4 evades out of it. And even if you get 2 free evades out of it it's equivalent to 2 shields or 8 points worth. So dirt cheap.

This shows that you don't understand C-3P0. You get 5/8 of an evade result each turn (under ideal circumstances) because you are already getting 3/8 of an evade result on that roll from your defense die. It takes 6-7 turns to get 4 additional evades, on top of the evades you're already rolling with your defense dice.

And when you complain about getting 2 HP worth out of C-3P0 you should remember that crew Chewbacca gives you a guaranteed 2 HP and potentially 3 HP if you use it to cancel a two-damage crit. You need to get shot at for three turns under ideal circumstances just to break even with the minimum result from Chewbacca.

Interceptors good against fat han?? You must be joking. Those ships suffered against yts in wave3 and they get absolutely destroyed by them in wave4.

Of course they're good, because they attack fat Han's biggest weakness: low damage output. You can tank forever with the 360 turret + C-3P0 + title, but you can't put out the consistent 3-hit attacks required to break through focus + evade stacks. Unless the dice go against the interceptors Han will take way too long to kill them, meanwhile those 3-dice attacks are taking away HP from Han without any problems.

You must not have tried tie swarm against fat han. It does not work, see above. And that's the problem, it's supposed to be the counter.

You played ONE GAME against the Falcon. Come back once you've played ten more games and still had no luck.

Obsidian instead of Academy in case you're expecting Predator EPT or Flight Instructor Crew cards to show up.

why the build? seriously though... what does the 5xobsidian do for you that 5xacadamy wouldn't? why adrenaline rush? that is 6 points of whyTF?

perfect positioning? you should have been shoving ps1 academy pilots in his face (bumping) denying him actions and focus firing with the rest.

swarm still kills falcons. 1 agility still sucks.

Did you read the part where i said i blocked him for 3 turns?

spending 5 points to counter 3 points seems like a bad expenditure of upgrades.

5 points to prevent 1 die from being re rolled per turn, max.

poor economy of upgrade.

iPeregrine, have you ever even played against a Falcon list?

Between its nearly guaranteed 1 or 2 damage a turn and some residual damage form the 3Zs you ARE looking at 3 damage a turn consistently with little deviation.

Also, again, the C3PO negates the dice luck. It goes uphill fast.

That said, did the OP fly in formation? That seems a bit detrimental. The current version of the tie swarm everyone uses now seems to be the 8tie.

Yes you can

CONCENTRATE ALL FIREPOWER ON THE SUPER STAR DESTROYER!

Give it a try. It might work.

That said, did the OP fly in formation? That seems a bit detrimental. The current version of the tie swarm everyone uses now seems to be the 8tie.

That is interesting info. Yes, i did fly in formation because of Howl, but i have been thinking the 8 tie loose swarm (which i have been flying exclusively in wave3) might do better in the current meta. I guess i really wanted to have a list that could melt falcons fast hence Howl, but it looks like it won't be that simple.

Thanks for the input!

iPeregrine, have you ever even played against a Falcon list?

Yes, and my favorite list is a Falcon list (and was since before C-3P0). The Falcon tanks great against single threats if you can reach endgame without losing it, but dies very quickly if you can get concentrated firepower from 4+ ships on it.

Between its nearly guaranteed 1 or 2 damage a turn and some residual damage form the 3Zs you ARE looking at 3 damage a turn consistently with little deviation.

But you aren't really guaranteed 1-2 damage a turn because you have so little dice modification. And yes, the z-95s help, but the OP played against a 2-ship list with Jan supporting the Falcon.

Also, again, the C3PO negates the dice luck.

C-3P0 negates the dice luck for one roll per turn. All of your offense and all of your remaining defense rolls are done with normal luck (and very often un-modified dice). This makes swarms the best counter to C-3P0 because the highest possible percentage of their attacks comes against unmodified dice instead of C-3P0.

IPeregrine, i pretty much disagree with everything you said. I've got nothing to add really.

That said, did the OP fly in formation? That seems a bit detrimental. The current version of the tie swarm everyone uses now seems to be the 8tie.

That is interesting info. Yes, i did fly in formation because of Howl, but i have been thinking the 8 tie loose swarm (which i have been flying exclusively in wave3) might do better in the current meta. I guess i really wanted to have a list that could melt falcons fast hence Howl, but it looks like it won't be that simple.

Thanks for the input!

Howl is still more than playable, you just can't automatically tether everyone to her and call it a day. Be prepared to move out of range if it means blocking or getting a shot off. A shot without Howl is better than no shot at all.

I was wondering how long it would take to get another one of these threads. We were dangerously close to not having one today.

OP - Sorry your list didn't work, but the falcon is not broken, 3PO is not broken and as others have pointed out you don't really seem to grasp how the card actually works. The reality of the situation is that the TIE swarm is THE BEST counter for a fat falcon. The reason being that 3PO works ONCE per turn and a TIE swarm fires MORE THAN ONCE per turn. If you think that your single game experience trumps that of this entire board and community of users then you are wrong. So, hate to say it but, if you lose to a fat falcon with a TIE swarm then the problem isn't C-3PO.

I was wondering how long it would take to get another one of these threads. We were dangerously close to not having one today.

OP - Sorry your list didn't work, but the falcon is not broken, 3PO is not broken and as others have pointed out you don't really seem to grasp how the card actually works. The reality of the situation is that the TIE swarm is THE BEST counter for a fat falcon. The reason being that 3PO works ONCE per turn and a TIE swarm fires MORE THAN ONCE per turn. If you think that your single game experience trumps that of this entire board and community of users then you are wrong. So, hate to say it but, if you lose to a fat falcon with a TIE swarm then the problem isn't C-3PO.

I will repeat myself for the last time...

In THEORY, the swarm is the best counter, hard counter even.

In PRACTICE, it is not the case and the falcon still has the luxury of not having to stay in arc or fly in formation.

The falcon can more than stack up to the swarm BECAUSE of 3PO. It has no hard counters.

IPeregrine, i pretty much disagree with everything you said. I've got nothing to add really.

You've had little to add the whole thread. You've addressed pretty much none his retorts and are hinging your entire argument on one example, poor understanding of how the game functions, and some odd idea that this is at all a new topic of interest.

3PO is an okay card, but he only triggers once per round. Were you guys playing him correctly? Because a TIE swarm would only be affected for 1 attack and that's really about it. If you're driving a swarm properly most of it should be aimed at the Falcon where you can lather it in laser fire and watch it burst into flames.

And if you're feeling paranoid about loosing a TIE every turn, choose evade. Unless the Falcon is in range 1, or you draw The Wrong Crit, you're not going to loose a TIE fighter to a single falcon shot. Then it would take whatever the Falcon has as friends to finish off that one fighter... and if they're Zs, they pop easily under the same fire you'd otherwise be throwing at the falcon.

And if those Zs are tailing the Falcon and you're afraid of pickup fire? Force the enemy to split formation. TIEs are more nimble than most other craft on the board. Steer so that they have to drive through some asteroids to get to you. Set up directly opposite of you? Hard 1 into the board and run for a bit before turning back and hitting them at several angles.

I've demolished a share of Falcons with TIE swarms in the past. All I see 3PO doing for such lists is reducing one attack potential, which for all we know could come from PS8 Holwrunner. Since she doesn't modify herself it would probably be the weakest attack out of a TIE swarm anyway.

I was wondering how long it would take to get another one of these threads. We were dangerously close to not having one today.

OP - Sorry your list didn't work, but the falcon is not broken, 3PO is not broken and as others have pointed out you don't really seem to grasp how the card actually works. The reality of the situation is that the TIE swarm is THE BEST counter for a fat falcon. The reason being that 3PO works ONCE per turn and a TIE swarm fires MORE THAN ONCE per turn. If you think that your single game experience trumps that of this entire board and community of users then you are wrong. So, hate to say it but, if you lose to a fat falcon with a TIE swarm then the problem isn't C-3PO.

I will repeat myself for the last time...

In THEORY, the swarm is the best counter, hard counter even.

In PRACTICE, it is not the case and the falcon still has the luxury of not having to stay in arc or fly in formation.

The falcon can more than stack up to the swarm BECAUSE of 3PO. It has no hard counters.

I'll say it plainer for you then.

YOU ARE WRONG

Ok, normally I'm not a grammar nazi, but.... Losing, not loosing. Loosing isn't even a word.... Now that we have that cleared up, in practice swarms do own Falcons. Just because they didn't in your one game doesn't mean they don't. I didn't die in a car crash today.That means no one ever does right?

Not full swarm, but I have found this to be very good against fat Han lists:

Rexlar Brath (37) + predator (3)

Howlrunner (18) + swarm tactics (2)

Backstabber (16)

Academy tie (12) x2

IPeregrine, i pretty much disagree with everything you said. I've got nothing to add really.

You've had little to add the whole thread. You've addressed pretty much none his retorts and are hinging your entire argument on one example, poor understanding of how the game functions, and some odd idea that this is at all a new topic of interest.

Untrue, there have been some great posts which i have acknowledged (outmaneuvre, other resources etc...). I don't reply to his posts because i don't want to waste time trying to explain to him why playing interceptors against fat han is a terrible idea.

I just signed up, i didn't know this was a daily topic, and frankly if this is the case then it just comforts me in my opinion.

In PRACTICE, it is not the case and the falcon still has the luxury of not having to stay in arc or fly in formation.

You played ONE GAME. I'm sorry that "swarms are good against Falcons" doesn't mean "put Howlrunner and six TIEs on the table and you're guaranteed to win", but your game is an exception to the rule. Your one game does not negate the experience of everyone else who agrees that swarms are strong against Falcon lists.

The falcon can more than stack up to the swarm BECAUSE of 3PO.

And, again, you don't understand how C-3P0 works. A TIE swarm is the worst possible situation for C-3P0 because of the once-per-round limit. You're barely getting more out of C-3P0 than the old HSF lists got out of crew Chewbacca.

I was wondering how long it would take to get another one of these threads. We were dangerously close to not having one today.

OP - Sorry your list didn't work, but the falcon is not broken, 3PO is not broken and as others have pointed out you don't really seem to grasp how the card actually works. The reality of the situation is that the TIE swarm is THE BEST counter for a fat falcon. The reason being that 3PO works ONCE per turn and a TIE swarm fires MORE THAN ONCE per turn. If you think that your single game experience trumps that of this entire board and community of users then you are wrong. So, hate to say it but, if you lose to a fat falcon with a TIE swarm then the problem isn't C-3PO.

I will repeat myself for the last time...

In THEORY, the swarm is the best counter, hard counter even.

In PRACTICE, it is not the case and the falcon still has the luxury of not having to stay in arc or fly in formation.

The falcon can more than stack up to the swarm BECAUSE of 3PO. It has no hard counters.

Well, if you really hate someone you could cram together as many Heavy Laser Cannons as you can in an list and just do the slow approach.

"I've got 3PO to protect me! Hah an evade! I have an agility token!"

"That's nice. Here are three Blues with HLCs and Advanced Sensors. I'm going to choose to riddle one of your ships with holes now, starting with either the weakest ship or the one with the lowest agility. Yes, my B-Wings can take your three dice, why do you ask?"

Now i don't want to take anything away from my opponent. He had a strong list and a strong plan to fly it, but once he'd put it on the board he was pretty much on auto pilot and just rolled dice. I started xwing because player decision in the game mattered more than in any other, and because your older models were always useable. None of these are true in this kind of matchup.

Let's look at the imperial models that are obsolete against falcon:

Phantom (duh!)

Tie interceptor (duh!)

Tie fighter (relies on high evades negated by the 4-5att meta, and the 2att is useless against 3po).

Tie bomber (same as tie fighter for offense, you'll survive a bit longer but wont have the firepower to take out han)

That's already 3 iconic imperial ships out of the game.

I really don't know how to fight that list with imperials and am really not excited to fly against it again.

I want to start off by saying that I am in the same boat as you, kind of. I really hate the proliferation of phantoms and falcons. But you have to sack up and deal with it. I'm always glad I can play games like x-wing, and am not fighting cockroaches in my apt anymore, and definitely am glad I don't live in a war torn part of the world. So let's put Creepio into perspective.

X-wing was never a game where player decision necessarily mattered more or less than other games. And older models were totally useable, back when you had 4 ships a side. Even in wave 1 you had issues with some ships just sucking. Storm squadron pilots? Ever seen them flown?

I am primarily a rebel player, so let me explain why a lot of us take Solo. Phantoms and interceptors, it's really that simple. I have 3 builds I can run as a rebel player. 4 ship, 3 ship, and Han+escorts. Rebels do 2 things better than imperials, quality of firepower and durability. Imperials bring maneuvering advantages out the ass to the table. 4 ship is great at manfighting swarms, but can get easily run over by phantoms and interceptors. They can dodge arcs all day long and make the game unplayable. 3 ship gets run over by swarms, but has a decent chance of beating your phantoms/interceptors, assuming I can rain man the game and predict where you will be.

The third option, Han and friends, is the best. Han gives me a decent counter to interceptors and phantoms, and if he can survive into the late game I can beat a swarm with it. Sure it's really boring to play, I don't know anyone who feels it is a challenging list, but then again, phantoms and interceptors are really easy to fly too.

No worries, i'm not trying to start a fight just for the sake of it. This is not the first game where this hapens and I thought about this a lot before starting this thread. At the end of the day, what i hate the most is loosing a game before the first dial is even set. This was never the case in wave3, and has happened to me numerous time in wave4 even when i take what is supposed to be the hard counter. This, above all, is why i wanted to post. The wave4 meta has narrowed your options, made the game potentially less enjoyable, and removed the one thing that set xwing apart from other wargames: skill over luck and list building. I hope this can be rectified.

Skill is a huge factor in every other wargame. There is a reason you see the same people at the top tables constantly.

I saw a very good player, running fat han, lose to a mini swarm+whisper yesterday. Clearly, based off my N=1 sample, Han needs to be buffed. give him attack 4 base to make him competitive.

It's a tough ship, but it hits with only 3 primary attack dice. 2 rookie x-wings will deal significantly more damage in a joust than Han, for a lot less points. I think you lost because you don't understand what Han does, and how to beat him, not because he is broken.

And FFS, can we have mods start banning this threads? I'm so sick of seeing a "QQ Han is literally worse than multiple Hitlers" thread every other day.

In PRACTICE, it is not the case and the falcon still has the luxury of not having to stay in arc or fly in formation.

You played ONE GAME. I'm sorry that "swarms are good against Falcons" doesn't mean "put Howlrunner and six TIEs on the table and you're guaranteed to win", but your game is an exception to the rule. Your one game does not negate the experience of everyone else who agrees that swarms are strong against Falcon lists.

The falcon can more than stack up to the swarm BECAUSE of 3PO.

And, again, you don't understand how C-3P0 works. A TIE swarm is the worst possible situation for C-3P0 because of the once-per-round limit. You're barely getting more out of C-3P0 than the old HSF lists got out of crew Chewbacca.

It's only one game, i'll concede that. I have played fat han multiple times before though with other lists, and got stomped. The point is, this list was supposed to give me a fighting chance. Not an auto win, just a chance. That wasn't my experience of it.

A tie swarm is the worst possible counter to 3po yet he still won comfortably. that is my whole point.

I want to start off by saying that I am in the same boat as you, kind of. I really hate the proliferation of phantoms and falcons. But you have to sack up and deal with it. I'm always glad I can play games like x-wing, and am not fighting cockroaches in my apt anymore, and definitely am glad I don't live in a war torn part of the world. So let's put Creepio into perspective.

X-wing was never a game where player decision necessarily mattered more or less than other games. And older models were totally useable, back when you had 4 ships a side. Even in wave 1 you had issues with some ships just sucking. Storm squadron pilots? Ever seen them flown?

I am primarily a rebel player, so let me explain why a lot of us take Solo. Phantoms and interceptors, it's really that simple. I have 3 builds I can run as a rebel player. 4 ship, 3 ship, and Han+escorts. Rebels do 2 things better than imperials, quality of firepower and durability. Imperials bring maneuvering advantages out the ass to the table. 4 ship is great at manfighting swarms, but can get easily run over by phantoms and interceptors. They can dodge arcs all day long and make the game unplayable. 3 ship gets run over by swarms, but has a decent chance of beating your phantoms/interceptors, assuming I can rain man the game and predict where you will be.

The third option, Han and friends, is the best. Han gives me a decent counter to interceptors and phantoms, and if he can survive into the late game I can beat a swarm with it. Sure it's really boring to play, I don't know anyone who feels it is a challenging list, but then again, phantoms and interceptors are really easy to fly too.

Thanks for that, it does put thing in perspective and i'm 100% in agreement with what the phantom has done. But 3po is equally problematic and people would run it on falcons even if the phantom wasn't here.

Skill is a huge factor in every other wargame. There is a reason you see the same people at the top tables constantly.

A tie swarm is the worst possible counter to 3po yet he still won comfortably. that is my whole point.

A Phantom is meant to be the worst possible counter to a swarm, yet the last time I saw the two go at it the swarm didn't just win comfortably, it was a total rout. Only lost a couple of TIEs before he wiped out the entire enemy list. Can I start claiming that this proves the swarm beats a Phantom every time?

This is the last game i played against Fat Han, he had:

Han

Veteran Instinct

Luke

C3p0

Anti pursuit laser

Jan Ors

Predator

Blaster Turret

Moldy crow

nien numb

Shield upgrade

To state my couriosity, how much damage did Jan do?

How many turns did she buff Han?

Did she attack and if so how many hits and crits did she get?

Did she die and if so when?

How was she flown?