This is the last game i played against Fat Han, he had:

Han

Veteran Instinct

Luke

C3p0

Anti pursuit laser

Jan Ors

Predator

Blaster Turret

Moldy crow

nien numb

Shield upgrade

I had:

Howlrunner

Stealth

Adrenaline Rush

Obsidian x5

Academy Pilot

And i got hammered.

It was really annoying, i had to fly top notch to block the falcon 3 turns while he could get away with just running a circle around the board. 3po was stupid and pretty much amounted to 4 extra shields... For 3 points... In the meantime, he was shooting at me with 4-5 attack dice. I got Han down to 4 hp before conceding with 3 ties out of position.

The only difference between this list and the wave3 one (which wasn't considered op especially against swarm) is 3po and predator (which didnt come into play). I think the impact of 3PO on a falcon is huge and people have yet to realise this. It's a garanteed evade per turn, and given the falcon is one of the most resilient ship in the game, you'll have to shoot at it a lot. My ballpark estimation is that it's minimum 4 extra shields... for 3 points!

Now i don't want to take anything away from my opponent. He had a strong list and a strong plan to fly it, but once he'd put it on the board he was pretty much on auto pilot and just rolled dice. I started xwing because player decision in the game mattered more than in any other, and because your older models were always useable. None of these are true in this kind of matchup.

Let's look at the imperial models that are obsolete against falcon:

Phantom (duh!)

Tie interceptor (duh!)

Tie fighter (relies on high evades negated by the 4-5att meta, and the 2att is useless against 3po).

Tie bomber (same as tie fighter for offense, you'll survive a bit longer but wont have the firepower to take out han)

That's already 3 iconic imperial ships out of the game.

I really don't know how to fight that list with imperials and am really not excited to fly against it again.

EDIT: for those wondering how a swarm could loose to a Fat Han list, here is how the game unfolded:

He started facing sideways, moved slowly forward to stack focus on Jan, then turned left to face my swarm in the upper left corner. I blocked Han for 3 turns here but couldn't finish him and he turned left and casually flew away while dishing out att5 on the ties.

Again, i don't want to take anything from my opponent, he had a strong list, a strong plan, and was a good sport. We had a good chat about the game at the end, he told me his list was built specifically to deal with swarm and of course shredded phantoms. Literraly the only way he can loose is with bad dice roll.

Did your opponent use Threepio once per round, or on every attack?

As for "people have yet to realize this", there's a thread like this about once a week now.

How are TIE's useless against 3-PO? Just shoot with the other ones after he uses him.

Yeah, how about using thick, heavy hitting things? Got an HLC/Torpedo platform? Shoot, use those. That might be slightly ill-advised, but it doesn't sound like swarms are doing anyone any good.

Also, "Expecting a different result from doing the same thing over and over again" -I'm sure what most here understand what that defines. No offense to you in particular, OP.

Once per round, still more than enough. Like i said, you'll have to be shooting him a lot, especially with swarm. In this game i had at least 4 turns of shooting and he definitely got at least 4 free evades out of it.

I'm glad i'm not the only one bothered by this. People in my area don't seem to have realised the extent of the strength of the card yet.

How are TIE's useless against 3-PO? Just shoot with the other ones after he uses him.

What bothers me the most is that swarm is supposed to be the counter to falcon, and he rolled over it with minimal maneuvring. Not saying i should auto win, but i think it was strongly in his favor because of this one card.

It's a garanteed evade per turn

This is one way to look at it, but it doesn't tell you much. Let's invent a hypothetical scenario where we have a new ship with 10000000000 agility. Guessing "zero" with C-3P0 still guarantees you at least one evade every turn, but would anyone waste 3 points and a crew slot to turn a 99.9999999999999999% chance of getting at least one evade into a 100% chance? Of course not.

The correct way to look at C-3P0 is that you get 5/8 of a HP every turn you are shot at, assuming you always guess zero on a shot with no extra defense dice. This is clearly good, but it does take an average of 4 turns of shooting to provide more HP than Chewbacca (crew).

My ballpark estimation is that it's minimum 4 extra shields... for 3 points!

Your ballpark estimation is completely wrong. To gain 4 extra HP from C-3P0 you would have to be shot at under ideal circumstances (no extra evade dice) for 6-7 turns. That's a lot of time for a Falcon to survive against focused fire from your whole TIE swarm.

Let's look at the imperial models that are obsolete against falcon:

Tie interceptor (duh!)

Tie fighter (relies on high evades negated by the 4-5att meta, and the 2att is useless against 3po).

Tie bomber (same as tie fighter for offense, you'll survive a bit longer but wont have the firepower to take out han)

This is very wrong.

TIE interceptors are good against current Falcon setups because they're designed to kill a single z-95 equivalent at PS 11, and don't have the raw firepower to get through stacked focus + evade.

TIE fighters are amazing against Falcons because you throw so many dice at them (with a Howlrunner re-roll) and C-3P0 only works once per turn. Meanwhile Han has 7+ targets to deal with and is unlikely to kill them in one shot each. A swarm is probably the best counter to a Falcon right now.

Bombers are still fairly good. The extra HP means you survive a lot longer, and even the cheapest bombs add a lot of firepower and movement control.

Because you loose one tie per turn.

No you don't. You're talking about a ship with a 3-dice gun. To kill a TIE in one shot at range 2-3 the Falcon needs to roll all hits and you need to roll no evades and have no evade tokens. And remember that the Falcon has VI instead of predator/marksmanship, so getting all three hits requires some luck.

Because at some point you'll have to kturn and get sniped while3po cancels your unfocused attacks.

How is C-3P0 canceling multiple attacks? Sure, one TIE will probably do nothing, but that's why you have the rest of the swarm. The Falcon stops one attack, and then even unfocused TIEs have a good chance of inflicting damage.

edit: double post

The Falcon's new found prevalence has not made the TIE Fighter obsolete. In fact, 3p0 makes TIE fighters perhaps the best counter, because of the number of attacks.

I had:
Howlrunner
Stealth
Adrenaline Rush
Obsidian x5
Academy Pilot

And i got hammered.

Any 7 TIE swarm, should, on paper be the perfect foil to a Falcon list. I'd say especially considering he only had one other ship, and not a particularly survivable one at that.

It's very easy to lay the blame on Threepio. It is a strong card for sure, but it is far from game breaking. Perhaps you ought to play this matchup again or a few more times and figure out how to defeat it.

Yeah, how about using thick, heavy hitting things? Got an HLC/Torpedo platform? Shoot, use those. That might be slightly ill-advised, but it doesn't sound like swarms are doing anyone any good.

Also, "Expecting a different result from doing the same thing over and over again" -I'm sure what most here understand what that defines. No offense to you in particular, OP.

I have no idea what you are talking about, and i did not say that.

As for heavy hitters, i agree, and it's my point: you are limited to a very narrow selection of builds and some models are downright unuseable.

The Falcon's new found prevalence has not made the TIE Fighter obsolete. In fact, 3p0 makes TIE fighters perhaps the best counter, because of the number of attacks.

I had:

Howlrunner

Stealth

Adrenaline Rush

Obsidian x5

Academy Pilot

And i got hammered.

Any 7 TIE swarm, should, on paper be the perfect foil to a Falcon list. I'd say especially considering he only had one other ship, and not a particularly survivable one at that.

It's very easy to lay the blame on Threepio. It is a strong card for sure, but it is far from game breaking. Perhaps you ought to play this matchup again or a few more times and figure out how to defeat it.

See my other post. 3po falcon rolls over swarm. That's the big problem.

Yeah, how about using thick, heavy hitting things? Got an HLC/Torpedo platform? Shoot, use those. That might be slightly ill-advised, but it doesn't sound like swarms are doing anyone any good.

Also, "Expecting a different result from doing the same thing over and over again" -I'm sure what most here understand what that defines. No offense to you in particular, OP.

I have no idea what you are talking about, and i did not say that.

As for heavy hitters, i agree, and it's my point: you are limited to a very narrow selection of builds and some models are downright unuseable.

Tell me, do people still use Flak-88s or SAMs?

Did you try Outmaneuver on BSP TIEs. Having a modified zero agility for the YT-1300 means C-3P0 doesn't get to activate, as it only works when rolling "1 or more defence dice".

[bOOM]

See my other post. 3po falcon rolls over swarm. That's the big problem.

It rolled over a swarm in one game. Maybe your opponent had better dice luck, maybe you're just a bad player and got outmaneuvered. What we can say is that your experience is not typical and usually a TIE swarm has a huge advantage over a Falcon list, especially a 2-ship Falcon list where the second ship is little more than a buff for the Falcon.

Your ballpark estimation is completely wrong. To gain 4 extra HP from C-3P0 you would have to be shot at under ideal circumstances (no extra evade dice) for 6-7 turns.

Let's look at the imperial models that are obsolete against falcon:Tie interceptor (duh!)Tie fighter (relies on high evades negated by the 4-5att meta, and the 2att is useless against 3po).Tie bomber (same as tie fighter for offense, you'll survive a bit longer but wont have the firepower to take out han) This is very wrong.TIE interceptors are good against current Falcon setups because they're designed to kill a single z-95 equivalent at PS 11, and don't have the raw firepower to get through stacked focus + evade.

You must not have tried tie swarm against fat han. It does not work, see above. And that's the problem, it's supposed to be the counter.

Did you try Outmaneuver on BSP TIEs. Having a modified zero agility for the YT-1300 means C-3P0 doesn't get to activate, as it only works when rolling "1 or more defence dice".

[bOOM]

Now THAT is interesting. Thanks for that, will give it some thought.

See my other post. 3po falcon rolls over swarm. That's the big problem.

It rolled over a swarm in one game. Maybe your opponent had better dice luck, maybe you're just a bad player and got outmaneuvered. What we can say is that your experience is not typical and usually a TIE swarm has a huge advantage over a Falcon list, especially a 2-ship Falcon list where the second ship is little more than a buff for the Falcon.

If you'd called outmaneuvring doing 2 turns in the game and shooting turrets through your ass, then sure, i got outmaneuvred.

Hi, I see you are new, welcome!

C-3PO + Falcon is essentially 2 armor, which makes the ship exceptionally good in the end game, as this is a nonlinear effect vs how many ships are shooting at you.

Edit: and it is guaranteed, so you are paying for zero standard deviation. Green dice can fail you. Threepio cannot.

People know about it for sure.

On the forum bar right above the topic list, click "most viewed". Then click on the 2014 Regionals thread, it is near the top. You can also view the 2014 Nationals thread further down. There is a lot of information there on the competitive meta.

OP,

I'm sorry you lost badly and were embarrassed. It's not a fun feelin, especially against a new card combination that you weren't expecting and when you felt that your list should have been victorious. I get that.

So take a breather. Step back and let go of your fear of change, your anger, and your hate.

This thread is not the first this week on the topic. We've had one nearly daily for the past month. Look at them, seek your catharsis in their frustrated posts, but then start to realize that others have faced Fat Han and won. It is not unbeatable. We play the same game you do, with an equal amount of skill. We've seen this problem and beaten it. You can too. Instead of just shooting down suggestions, listen and learn. Let this be a discussion, if we must go over Fat Han again. Accept that your experience is not the only valid one.

EDIT: And also, welcome! We're always happy to have new members, but please do realize we've talked a lot about these things before. We're not just trying to disagree with you randomly.

Hi, I see you are new, welcome!

C-3PO + Falcon is essentially 2 armor, which makes the ship exceptionally good in the end game, as this is a nonlinear effect vs how many ships are shooting at you.

Edit: and it is guaranteed, so you are paying for zero standard deviation. Green dice can fail you. Threepio cannot.

People know about it for sure.

On the forum bar right above the topic list, click "most viewed". Then click on the 2014 Regionals thread, it is near the top. You can also view the 2014 Nationals thread further down. There is a lot of information there on the competitive meta.

I'm new to the forums, not to the game.

I feel your seething hate.....

this is your strength.....embrace the darkside. it is your destiny.

....also try again, learn and enjoy.

OP,

I'm sorry you lost badly and were embarrassed. It's not a fun feelin, especially against a new card combination that you weren't expecting and when you felt that your list should have been victorious. I get that.

So take a breather. Step back and let go of your fear of change, your anger, and your hate.

This thread is not the first this week on the topic. We've had one nearly daily for the past month. Look at them, seek your catharsis in their frustrated posts, but then start to realize that others have faced Fat Han and won. It is not unbeatable. We play the same game you do, with an equal amount of skill. We've seen this problem and beaten it. You can too. Instead of just shooting down suggestions, listen and learn. Let this be a discussion, if we must go over Fat Han again. Accept that your experience is not the only valid one.

EDIT: And also, welcome! We're always happy to have new members, but please do realize we've talked a lot about these things before. We're not just trying to disagree with you randomly.

No worries, i'm not trying to start a fight just for the sake of it. This is not the first game where this hapens and I thought about this a lot before starting this thread. At the end of the day, what i hate the most is loosing a game before the first dial is even set. This was never the case in wave3, and has happened to me numerous time in wave4 even when i take what is supposed to be the hard counter. This, above all, is why i wanted to post. The wave4 meta has narrowed your options, made the game potentially less enjoyable, and removed the one thing that set xwing apart from other wargames: skill over luck and list building. I hope this can be rectified.

The Falcon's new found prevalence has not made the TIE Fighter obsolete. In fact, 3p0 makes TIE fighters perhaps the best counter, because of the number of attacks.

I had:

Howlrunner

Stealth

Adrenaline Rush

Obsidian x5

Academy Pilot

And i got hammered.

Any 7 TIE swarm, should, on paper be the perfect foil to a Falcon list. I'd say especially considering he only had one other ship, and not a particularly survivable one at that.

It's very easy to lay the blame on Threepio. It is a strong card for sure, but it is far from game breaking. Perhaps you ought to play this matchup again or a few more times and figure out how to defeat it.

See my other post. 3po falcon rolls over swarm. That's the big problem.

No, it simply does not. How many times have you played with your swarm against 3p0 Falcons? Just the one game? Please give it another try. I'm really not going out on a limb when I say it is possible for a TIE swarm to defeat a Falcon list.

Always in motion is the future of X-Wing.

But yes, the designers talked a lot about, in veiled terms, about what's coming over the next many months for the game during an interview back at GenCon 2014. Look for the Team Convenent interview on YouTube.

No, it simply does not. How many times have you played with your swarm against 3p0 Falcons? Just the one game? Please give it another try. I'm really not going out on a limb when I say it is possible for a TIE swarm to defeat a Falcon list.