So I got my copy of F&D today (yay!). While looking at the lightsabers, I noticed that the double-bladed lightsaber has the "unwieldy" quality. It's essentially just Cumbersome but for agility rather than brawn, and I think it's a real cool idea. Some weapons require much more finesse and dexterity to use appropriately. My issue is that the saberstaff has an Unwieldy rating of 2, which means that the user needs two Agilty in order to use it without suffering penalties.

That seems low to me, especially for something as potentially hazardous as a lightsaber with two blades. There are very few PCs who will have an Agilty of 1, and I think the awkward nature of a double-bladed lightsaber should come in to play more often. The average person has an Agility of 2, which means the average person would not have any more difficult time of using a saberstaff than someone who had trained with it for years.

I think the double-bladed lightsaber should have its Unwieldy rating bumped up to 3, especially considering that the lightsaber pike has a Cumbersome of 3. Is there really any reason that it shouldn't?

I agree. Unwieldy 3 makes a lot more sense.

In the second beta update for Force and Destiny, they released stats for a new adversary, a "Fallen Jedi Master" which uses a double-bladed lightsaber. The stats for that lightsaber says "Unwieldy 3". That may be indicative of changes to come.

Well, the thing is, when you look at a normal lightsaber, it doesn't even have any requirements. So a way to look at a double-lightsaber is that you need to be twice as good as you'd need to be with a normal lightsaber (I do believe characteristics bottom out at 1).

And really it's kind of just a general thing with lightsabers and how dangerous they are. We've got the Lightsaber skill being restricted to Force Users that pick up a Lightsaber-oriented Specialization (barring the use of a Holocron that can give it) - so on that end you can only be so good with it as an average EotE/AoR character. But we don't really have anything for how dangerous they are to themselves. Like if I dropped my lightsaber and some no name minion comes over trying to swing it at me, I'd expect him to at least have a chance of cutting his own limb off.

So basically what I'm trying to get at is that 1-2 extra difficulty dice from higher Unwieldy really just amounts to "Oh, I'm missing more than with a normal lightsaber" instead of "Oh ****, I nearly cut my leg off - maybe this weapon isn't such a good idea".

I've mentioned before that massive amounts of threat/a despair or two could potentially reflect this - the threat making higher difficulty from Unwieldy actually having more severe consequences, but I haven't been able to settle on any set numbers or rules that didn't come across as too weak or too severe.

But we don't really have anything for how dangerous they are to themselves. Like if I dropped my lightsaber and some no name minion comes over trying to swing it at me, I'd expect him to at least have a chance of cutting his own limb off.

I agree. I have decided to rule that anyone using a Lightsaber with 0 ranks in the skill automatically upgrades the difficulty by 1. If they roll threats, they take Strain for the close calls as they swing it. A despair, well they take the damage, with Threats subbing in for Advantages, activating sunder, crits, ect. Imagine their surprise when after they swing the weapon, their armor is laying in tatters at their feet.

I think Unwieldy 3 makes a lot of sense. Calling a double bladed saber "twice as tough" doesn't quite cover it, you have two ends which you can conceivably lop your own arm off with.

Two-blade Sabers (one regular in each hand) already has it's difficulty increased thanks to the Dual Wield rules. I think the Saberstaff needs Unwieldy 3 to balance the Linked 1 quality

Yeah, I had thought the Unwieldy 3 on the Fallen Master's stat block was an error, but I can see the change being made to have usage of a double-bladed lightsaber fit the general fluff that it's a very difficult weapon to master. And by requiring Agility 3, that makes it less attractive to saber-wielders that simply want the Linked 1 quality and aren't concerned with doing any massive upgrades to the weapon.

Agreed that it should be Unwieldy 3.

I think it definitely needs at LEAST Unwieldy 3. 2 seems super strange, being that it's the baseline for almost all species.

"You need to be agile to wield a double bladed lightsaber! As agile as... well... the average person I guess..." o.O

I think it definitely needs at LEAST Unwieldy 3.

Personally I'd go with 4... Getting to 3 is too easy at chargen, using the saberstaff effectively should require a considerable investment. After all, Linked 1 is a pretty huge boost.

I think it definitely needs at LEAST Unwieldy 3.

Personally I'd go with 4... Getting to 3 is too easy at chargen, using the saberstaff effectively should require a considerable investment. After all, Linked 1 is a pretty huge boost.

That essentially limits the weapon to Ataru strikers. No other saberist is going to invest that much into Agility.

Personally I'd go with 4... Getting to 3 is too easy at chargen, using the saberstaff effectively should require a considerable investment. After all, Linked 1 is a pretty huge boost.

That essentially limits the weapon to Ataru strikers. No other saberist is going to invest that much into Agility.

yeah, three is reasonable and makes it a reasonable character choice. Four is excessive and restricts it to Agility-monkeys only.

I support 3. Four puts it out of range of most Jedi, and 2 is barely a limitation at all. Nearly everybody will have at least a 2 Agility.

3 Is good and I've put up my opinion about it earlier. It works even if you have 2 in agility, if you commit a dice to agility with the enhance power.

I think I'm dropping Unwieldy and having it upgrade the Difficulty dice by 1. This gives more opportunities for Despair...

I think I'm dropping Unwieldy and having it upgrade the Difficulty dice by 1. This gives more opportunities for Despair...

Which circumvents the notion that a saberstarff wielder can become proficient enough with the weapon that they have zero risk of hurting themselves. Darth Maul certainly had no problems or concerns about twirling his double-bladed lightsaber around, and he'd be a prime example of Adversary with a sufficiently high enough Agility to overcome the Unwieldy 3 quality. The fact that the costs for attachments (such as various focusing crystals or superior hilt customization) are doubled along with Unwieldy (particularly if increased to 3) is already a sufficient balancing factor for the Linked 1 quality.

You've also got the MagnaGuards from RotS, each using an electrostaff without any inherent problems against a couple of very capable Jedi in the form of a battle-seasoned Jedi Master and The Chosen One. Which simply means that they had Characteristics high enough to not worry about the weapon's Cumbersome or Unwieldy qualities.

Which circumvents the notion that a saberstarff wielder can become proficient enough with the weapon that they have zero risk of hurting themselves.

Well, I'm convinced Unwieldy 3 is good enough

Which circumvents the notion that a saberstarff wielder can become proficient enough with the weapon that they have zero risk of hurting themselves.

Yes it does.

I don't think an upgrade is necessary. If somebody is openly carrying around a saberstaff they are probably proficient enough to be facing opponents who already have ranks in Adversary or their own means up upgrading incoming attacks (e.g.: committed Force die on Sense). You can already use those Despairs to give them a chance of self hurt, adding more to it just seems like overkill.

I don't think an upgrade is necessary. If somebody is openly carrying around a saberstaff they are probably proficient enough to be facing opponents who already have ranks in Adversary ...

Actually I was planning it for an Adversary... but it's probably simpler to just ignore the Unwieldy and upgrade the Diff on it's attacks (unless the PCs go really defensively heavy, which I doubt). It's meant as a "middle of the campaign" foe, one eventually* hoisted by it's own petard.

* That's the plan anyway. It may or may not happen, I'll see how it goes.