Just tried my first 2 games with the Outrider. Did a variation I've seen others play before:

Dash Rendar

HLC

Outrider Title

Engine Upgrade

PtL

Kyle Katarn crew

58 pts

Corran Horn

VI

Engine Upgrade

FCS

42 points.

Played against a good player who tried:

Soontir (PtL) + Howl + 4 TIEs (2 OSP, 2 AP)

2 Blues with AdS (1 with Flechette Torp), 2 Gold with Ion Turret (1 with R3-A2)

The first game my Corran died horribly without firing off a shot (bad play on my part and bad dice rolling - 2 evades from 12 dice), so Dash was on his own taking on Soontir+5 TIEs. Guess what? even with very poor rolling early on (I lost 4 shields getting shot by 2 TIEs in one round) and a few sub-optimal boost/barrel roll arc dodging moves (where I ended up in firing arc when I could have been out of it), I killed Soontir and 5 TIEs with 5 hull left.

We reviewed our moves and analyzed what the Imperial player could have done, and it was almost impossible since the TIEs tried to fly in formation (Dash easily got out of arc) and then spread out (Dash was able to take out one with HLC before it shot or turtle up). the only thing we could think of is maybe take some chances with Soontir and just trade shots at R3, or dive in and try a few shots at R1.

I was even playing Dash pretty predictably, since I was PtL almost every turn and had to do the green moves to clear stress (I literally just had the 1 straight and 1 bank with me the entire time). But it was still amazing that a 58 point ship took out 100 points that's generally considered as a very strong list.

Second game ended very quickly in the 4th round when Dash killed a B-Wing in 2 rounds of firing (lucky 4 hits and unlucky 0 evades for the B-Wing). Granted that was a fluke, but when we realized the Y-Wings could never get Dash into R2 to use the ion turret and the B-Wings would drop in 3 rounds of firing on average, he conceded. Oh yeah, Corran hadn't even entered the picture at this point. It was just Dash vs BBYY.

So from reading the other thread, I understand stress, ion, and blocking are the best ways to deal with Dash, but if Dash is flown well and keeps away long enough, it's a pretty crazy powerful ship.

I'm hoping people have found ways to deal with Dash that's not just the full TIE swarm (which I think will do well), or maybe 2 decimators or 2 falcons.

Brainstorming myself, here are some possible things that can take it on, but it would be a tough battle:

Keyan with VI and ion cannon

Nera with flechette torpedoes

Corran with PtL+Engine

Chiraneau or Kenkirk+VI with Engine, Mara (for the rare chance you're in R1), and double tactician (or Flechette)

Echo/Whisper decked out

6-8 TIE swarm

Whisper+5 TIEs (should have a better chance than Soontir)

Defenders with Ion Cannon

2 Elusive TIEs or Jonus

Any other ideas or tactics to beat Fat Dash + escorts?

Your friend's mistake was flying formation against a ship with a Range 1 blind spot. You want one or two of those TIEs to play blocker and the rest to go for Range 1.

That's the thing with formation nowadays: it gets you killed if you don't know when to break.

A couple of defenders with HLC will ruin dash`s day pretty quick and there's no need to fly them in formation unless you want to take Jonas for the re rolls, the k turns will give them distance enough that dash will have a hard time rolling out of arc.

And with six hit points and three dodge his HLC can't one shot you even if the green bastards try to screw you over.

It's not only about the weakness st range 1,but that by default you should be bumping PtL ships. No barrel and dice modificstion

Play the blocking game. Denying actions stops PTL and boosting.

Use prototype A wings or ORS for Rebels

Use AP's for Empire.

A good trick is trying to get them into a corner. That always worked with big ships before, but it works extra good with the HLC outriders because of their blind spot.

"Sir, if we maneuver to this one specific spot he can't even target us!"

"Avoid that spot at all costs soldier!"

"But sir,"

"I'll have none of your insubordination. Now get back into formation. "

Just tried my first 2 games with the Outrider. Did a variation I've seen others play before:

Dash Rendar

HLC

Outrider Title

Engine Upgrade

PtL

Kyle Katarn crew

58 pts

Corran Horn

VI

Engine Upgrade

FCS

42 points.

Played against a good player who tried:

Soontir (PtL) + Howl + 4 TIEs (2 OSP, 2 AP)

The first game my Corran died horribly without firing off a shot (bad play on my part and bad dice rolling - 2 evades from 12 dice), so Dash was on his own taking on Soontir+5 TIEs. Guess what? even with very poor rolling early on (I lost 4 shields getting shot by 2 TIEs in one round) and a few sub-optimal boost/barrel roll arc dodging moves (where I ended up in firing arc when I could have been out of it), I killed Soontir and 5 TIEs with 5 hull left.

We reviewed our moves and analyzed what the Imperial player could have done, and it was almost impossible since the TIEs tried to fly in formation (Dash easily got out of arc) and then spread out (Dash was able to take out one with HLC before it shot or turtle up). the only thing we could think of is maybe take some chances with Soontir and just trade shots at R3, or dive in and try a few shots at R1.

This is a very, very difficult position for the Imperial player to be in. The reflex reaction is "well break formation and spread out your arcs!!" But the issue with this, is that only around half of your ships will end up catching Dash in arc. And Dash shoots first, so all he has to do is attack the closest ship that has him in arc. At best the Imperial ship will lose its focus, spending it on defense, and at worst it gets outright destroyed by a TL+F 4 dice HLC attack. This is more likely than you might think: 4 dice TL+F has a 25% chance of 1-shotting a TIE with focus for defense. Either way, the Imperial player's attack power is going to be less than half of what you would get if your entire squad could focus on Dash. Dash just has to keep playing the dodge / nuke game, and he is golden. Nevermind that in a "normal" game he can have 3 escorts that can tear into your blockers.

A couple of defenders with HLC will ruin dash`s day pretty quick and there's no need to fly them in formation unless you want to take Jonas for the re rolls, the k turns will give them distance enough that dash will have a hard time rolling out of arc.

And with six hit points and three dodge his HLC can't one shot you even if the green bastards try to screw you over.

The problem is that he can pretty easily avoid your K-turn arc if he moves himself perpendicular to your current flight path. Moving at PS7 and having Engine Upgrade with PtL, makes this a near-certainty.

Also, if he doesn't need to Boost or barrel roll, then he will have TL + 2x focus.

Dash's attack

4 dice TL+F vs 3 dice F = 1.88 average damage. 3.18 turns to kill a Defender

Defender's attack back - (assuming the Defender even has a shot)

With focus (less than 50% of the time, since you'll spend it on defense instead): 4 dice + F vs 2 dice + F: 1.77 avg dmg. 5.65 turns to kill Dash

w/o focus: 0.92 avg dmg. 11 turns to kill Dash.

Lets just say that the Defender has focus 50% of the time, so that's 7.4 turns to kill Dash.

You can add a 2nd Defender to make it 58 points of Dash vs 74 points of Defenders, so now it takes about the same time for Dash to kill one Defender as both Defenders take to kill Dash. But, as soon as Dash starts dodging arcs to avoid damage completely, he will outright beat the Defenders.

In completely related news, the jousting value of a HLC Outrider is WAY higher than any of the other 360 turreted large base ships. When you add on PtL and Kyle for triple action, it just gets crazy.

Play the blocking game. Denying actions stops PTL and boosting.

Use prototype A wings or ORS for Rebels

Use AP's for Empire.

I agree, this is one of the few strategies that can work. However, trying to block Dash who can go through asteroids and debris fields with his eyes closed, and can then boost and barrel roll, I will say this:

" Good Luck. You're gonna need it."

TL;DR: Fighting 58 Dash with generics is like trying to play dodgeball against a Ninja who has nukes.

HLC Dash will be more disruptive to the long term meta-game than ACD Phantoms. Yes, I am calling it now.

It seems like VI Vessery with HLC and anything with a 5 forward and 8+PS might be effective as well. Rexler w/Predator. While they can't just flat out kill him moving afterwards will keep him guessing and less likely to TL FF.

It didn't seem that bad in this game:

I don't think anyone mentioned it earlier but being at Range 3 for Soontir is what you do against Falcons/Decimators not Outriders. The HLC denies the range 3 defense bonus, but since you are shooting back you are still giving him that bonus if you are in range 2 then he rolls 4 versus your 3 and you roll 3 versus his 2, but at range 3 it is still his 4 versus your 3 but it is your 3 versus his 3 on your attack

Decimators and Falcons will probably work well against the Outrider (what don't they work against?) He can't arc dodge you and still shoot at you so you basically turn it into a dice off. The Falcon and VT49 have more hull and a more consistent evades 1v1 and can crit the Outrider, but the Outrider has more attack dice and can potentially pull 2-3 evades whenever it is attacked

TL;DR: Fighting 58 Dash with generics is like trying to play dodgeball against a Ninja who has nukes.

HLC Dash will be more disruptive to the long term meta-game than ACD Phantoms. Yes, I am calling it now.

Thanks for the feedback MajorJuggler. That's pretty much how I feel so far, that this Outrider build is going to be even more disruptive and limit the options of competitive builds in the meta than the Phantom. The Phantom is maneuverable and super hard to hit, but it only has 4 HP and cannot always shoot back at you. It's 4 dice attack gives you a R3 bonus, and it's prone to have to BR or take evades to survive. Whereas the Outrider with Kyle and PtL gets 3 actions a turn so almost always has something to help with arc dodging or offense.

It didn't seem that bad in this game:

I'll have to watch this one and get back to you, thanks for posting!

Grabbing some advice from Theorist at TC (I found his post after I posted this one), I'm gonna try some of the tips. But it still worries me that one is limited to bringing these things to be competitive, and even then, you're putting more than 58 points of ships to try to kill Dash.

Advice from Theorist:

REBELS

– R3A2 to shut off PTL. Rush the Outrider.

– Blue w/ FCS. It takes 3 HLC shots to kill, and hits back well.

– Biggs. Lag then catch up, to keep ships alive as you corner.

– 4 Ion Cannons can do the job. Ionize and rush.

– HLC or accurate missiles. Outrider doesn’t want even trades.

– Bodies. You can whittle this ship if you can get shots.

– Boost on PS 8+, to move after PTL Dash. (VI Dash is weak.)

– Engine fat-Han can fight back. He’s not a good counter.

IMPERIALS

– Rebel Captive to counter PTL.

– HLC fast shuttle, or HLC fast Krassis, to trade shots.

– Boost on PS 8+, or decloak on PS 8+. Rush Range 1.

– Engine+Gunner Decimator, any PS. Absorb and wade in.

TACTICS I’D AVOID

– Rebel E-wing builds that can’t turtle F+E. They die in 2 shots.

– Imperial swarms. TIE Fighters tend to pop in 1 HLC shot.

– Fanning out arcs too much; you’ll get kited to death.

– Going after Dash’s support first; HLC will murder you.

– Trying to trade with Dash 1-on-1 at Range 3 with not-HLC.

There are probably other “pro tips” I could say… but mainly beating this ship is a matter of moving your ships to the middle of the board so that Dash is forced to the wall then the corner. There you can pin him down a bit and get 2+ shots on him in some turns. If you stick to the walls yourself, Dash will kite you all day and pick your squad apart.

It didn't seem that bad in this game:

Thanks for the link, I will have to watch that!

Rear Admiral + expose + EI + Isard and rebel captive for good measure is probably a good start for imperials. You get to shoot back at 4 dice, you always have an evade after the first 5 damage. Yeah dash can stay at range 3 and get an extra evade but shooting at you is going to cause stress which means less uses of ptl.

I agree, this is one of the few strategies that can work. However, trying to block Dash who can go through asteroids and debris fields with his eyes closed, and can then boost and barrel roll, I will say this:

" Good Luck. You're gonna need it."

TL;DR: Fighting 58 Dash with generics is like trying to play dodgeball against a Ninja who has nukes.

HLC Dash will be more disruptive to the long term meta-game than ACD Phantoms. Yes, I am calling it now.

Fel should be able to beat a ptl outrider by himself. Moving second + boost + barrel roll should always leave him in range 1.

It didn't seem that bad in this game:

All welcome our 2 ship overlords builds.

On a more serious note, while i am sure wave 5 will make the game less enjoyable for me, i do hope this 2 ship lists don't become the norm.

About getting into range 1. It is much harder than it looks because you have to guess the maneuver of a ship that can travel through asteroids and doesn't need to be on arc fire to return fire. and has a barrel roll to make it even harder to predict.

Rear Admiral + expose + EI + Isard and rebel captive for good measure is probably a good start for imperials. You get to shoot back at 4 dice, you always have an evade after the first 5 damage. Yeah dash can stay at range 3 and get an extra evade but shooting at you is going to cause stress which means less uses of ptl.

I like that build. May try it out with a friend to day to see how well it works!

I agree, this is one of the few strategies that can work. However, trying to block Dash who can go through asteroids and debris fields with his eyes closed, and can then boost and barrel roll, I will say this:

" Good Luck. You're gonna need it."

TL;DR: Fighting 58 Dash with generics is like trying to play dodgeball against a Ninja who has nukes.

HLC Dash will be more disruptive to the long term meta-game than ACD Phantoms. Yes, I am calling it now.

Well, that might depend in no small part on just how good the anti-turret card the designers hinted is coming during Wave 6.

It better be super good, like if you are out of the primary arc and getting shot by an HLC, you get to cancel every hit result.

Fel should be able to beat a ptl outrider by himself. Moving second + boost + barrel roll should always leave him in range 1.

Fel tried... and Fel died...

All welcome our 2 ship overlords builds.

On a more serious note, while i am sure wave 5 will make the game less enjoyable for me, i do hope this 2 ship lists don't become the norm.

About getting into range 1. It is much harder than it looks because you have to guess the maneuver of a ship that can travel through asteroids and doesn't need to be on arc fire to return fire. and has a barrel roll to make it even harder to predict.

Yeah, it wasn't as easy one thinks. Having high PS definitely helps, but a lot of times you'll end up pointing the wrong way just to get into R1 and not be shot at.

At the end of our game, it was actually a full health Howlrunner vs Dash (I know, how did Howlrunner survive that long?), and Howl was able to get into R1 of Dash for 4-5 turns in a row, but she wasn't pointing the right way to shoot at Dash during those turns because of the way I flew Dash. I finally forced Howl into a position where there was no way she could get out of the arc, and then she got one-shotted.

But it's definitely true that higher PS and some maneuverability helps a lot, as Howl was able to BR into the R1 frequently. But afterwards we discussed a bit and felt that having a boost action is even more useful than BR. Of course, having both would be sweet. Here's to Autothrusters bringing back the interceptors again!

Rear Admiral + expose + EI + Isard and rebel captive for good measure is probably a good start for imperials. You get to shoot back at 4 dice, you always have an evade after the first 5 damage. Yeah dash can stay at range 3 and get an extra evade but shooting at you is going to cause stress which means less uses of ptl.

Just tried this list, an HLC shuttle with AdS and Engine plus the Admiral. It seems to get close to killing Dash. the problem is Isard can't work if you use EI and Expose to get stressed.

Trying out

Rear Admiral

Expose

EI

Tactician

Gunner

OGP

Mara

Fleet Officer

Ion Cannon

AdS

Engine

Trying it again

Rear Admiral + expose + EI + Isard and rebel captive for good measure is probably a good start for imperials. You get to shoot back at 4 dice, you always have an evade after the first 5 damage. Yeah dash can stay at range 3 and get an extra evade but shooting at you is going to cause stress which means less uses of ptl.

Just tried this list, an HLC shuttle with AdS and Engine plus the Admiral. It seems to get close to killing Dash. the problem is Isard can't work if you use EI and Expose to get stressed.

Trying out

Rear Admiral

Expose

EI

Tactician

Gunner

OGP

Mara

Fleet Officer

Ion Cannon

AdS

Engine

Trying it again

Rear Admiral + expose + EI + Isard and rebel captive for good measure is probably a good start for imperials. You get to shoot back at 4 dice, you always have an evade after the first 5 damage. Yeah dash can stay at range 3 and get an extra evade but shooting at you is going to cause stress which means less uses of ptl.

Just tried this list, an HLC shuttle with AdS and Engine plus the Admiral. It seems to get close to killing Dash. the problem is Isard can't work if you use EI and Expose to get stressed.

Trying out

Rear Admiral

Expose

EI

Tactician

Gunner

OGP

Mara

Fleet Officer

Ion Cannon

AdS

Engine

Trying it again

You need to trigger Expose off of Isard's action, not in the normal activation phase (like Turr with PTL), and essentially giving you three actions a turn.

Yup, you target lock as your action in the activation phase, then at the start of the combat phase, Ysanne triggers a free evade action. can THEN trigger Experimental Interface to activate Expose and receive a stress.

You need to trigger Expose off of Isard's action, not in the normal activation phase (like Turr with PTL), and essentially giving you three actions a turn.

Yup, you target lock as your action in the activation phase, then at the start of the combat phase, Ysanne triggers a free evade action. can THEN trigger Experimental Interface to activate Expose and receive a stress.

Oh duh! You'd think I know that by now, hahaha. Thank you. That makes a lot more sense!

Ok, Shuttle was a bad idea, never got a shot on Dash. Here's one I think will work well.

Chiraneau

Expose

EI

Ysanne

RC

Gunner

65 points

Soontir

PtL

Hull Upgrade

TC

100 pts

Can swap in Echo with ACD+VI also since she can get into the R1 bubble.

Potentially can trade Gunner for FCS+Recon on Echo, or Tactician on Chiraneau and FCS/Recon on Echo.

Thoughts?

An EI Exposed RAdm is a poor candidate for a gunner.