It's funny because I was just thinking about the compressed and unstable crystals from FU. I don't know how much I agree with the stat blocks presented so far (some of them seem too powerful) but I like the idea of them being included.

This being a pretty important part of the EU (which of course is rapidly disappearing) I hope it at least gets a mention in the book.

@scalding: I like you're generic crystal, but I think it may still have too many mods on it. Possibly leave off one of the damage mods. But that's just me. Ilum crystals were the gold standard for a reason, and that still places this within the realm of being viable. But that's just one man's opinion.

@scalding: I like you're generic crystal, but I think it may still have too many mods on it. Possibly leave off one of the damage mods. But that's just me. Ilum crystals were the gold standard for a reason, and that still places this within the realm of being viable. But that's just one man's opinion.

Fully modded, Scalding's crystal would be roughly on par with an unmodified Mephite crystal in terms of damage and crit rating, though with a rank of Vicious and lacking that pesky "shows up to other Force users via Sense" aspect.

Thanks Donovan, I really appreciate you saying so.

@Thebearisdriving:

I basically went through each crystal (sans training emitter, of course) and chose only those mods that were available in at least 4 of them (out of 8). It turns out that 4 crystals have at least 2 Damage +1 upgrade mods, which is how I arrived at that number.

I was actually surprised that there were that many, though. Still, the crystal will have a Critical Rating of 2 after that upgrade, so I imagine a player would be keen to upgrade as soon as possible, and may not want to spend the credits modding a "lesser" stone.

Like I said, one man's opinion. Nothing wrong with what you put up

Thanks Donovan, I really appreciate you saying so.

You're welcome.

Though I took a glance at the Athiss Cave Crystal found at the end of "Lost Knowledge" and your crystal write-up has much the same stats, only being less expensive, a lower Rarity, and not being restricted. But since not every group is going to have access to those crystals (and they're largely introduced as a way to quickly let 'saber-monkeys get fully-functioning 'sabers instead of being stuck with the training version), I'd say your version stands on its own merits just fine.

Heh, I hadn't read the (Spoiler Alert!) because my GM told me not to.

I'm glad it's in there, though I do wish they'd include items from the included adventure in the appropriate lists in the main part of the book.

Also, mine is supposed to be restricted, but the forum made a registered trademark symbol out of it.

I think on the whole F&D is going to involve the most homebrew. Too few canon sources, too many different viewpoints, and way too many unique occurrences (especially in the artifacts department).

And the pace of book release is going to be a trickle. so yes, home brew is likely to be the modus operandi for many.

Which could be said for the entire system, particularly when it was just EotE.

Case in point, the Unofficial Species Menagerie, which was a fairly huge collection of homebrew stats of various species, only a small portion of which have gotten official write-ups in between now and the time that the initial version was published through the Gamer Security Agency. And there's at least two stabs at a Jedi Career and associated specializations, as well as probably countless attempts to brew up various Force powers. I'd also done conversions of a number of different starships for the GSA as well, most of which were written with the intent of being viable starting ship options for a group of EotE PCs.

We probably didn't see as much homebrew stuff for AoR because EotE was already on shelves at that point and folks had a plethora of stuff to play with.

I think it's more likely there will be a number of in-house rule changes than entirely new material, with different folks tweaking the system in various ways to best suit their particular playstyles. I'm already planning on implementing my reworkings of the various LS Form trees as a house rule adaptation on the (frankly quite likely) chance that the FFG design team chooses to stick with the current versions of both those specs and how Parry and Reflect calculate their damage mitigation values.

Frankenstein! *cough* Anyway. After reading over another thread, it occurs to me how to do the mechanics for actually making the crystal. Just use the modding mechanics and treat it as "incomplete" until you finish! If you stop early or screw up, you're stuck with a "flawed" crystal that doesn't have all the capabilities it was supposed to but can still be modded like the original. If you do finish, you're left with what is functionally a crystal of that type. What do you think? (Also, did that get conveyed with as much sense as it made in my head?)

Just use the modding mechanics and treat it as "incomplete" until you finish! If you stop early or screw up, you're stuck with a "flawed" crystal that doesn't have all the capabilities it was supposed to but can still be modded like the original. If you do finish, you're left with what is functionally a crystal of that type.

You don't have to live with nicks or scratches! Fixes any crystal, any color! Buy one, get one free! Call now!

I think the core problem with modifying lightsaber crystals comes down to the "default" focusing crystal, the Ilum Crystal, simply having far too many modifications. Most other attachments that have modification options cap out at much less, generally between 2 to 4.

I suggested this elsewhere, but elevate the Ilum Crystal to be something more rare/uncommon and thus have a higher starting value (Damage 7. Crit 1, Breach 1/Sunder/Vicious 1, leaving 3 +1 damage mods and a single +1 Vicious mod) and substitute a synthetic crystal that's roughly on par with the Athiss Cave crystal that's listed at the end of Lost Knowledge as the "default" focusing crystal. Give it a base value of Damage 6, Crit 3, Breach 1/Sunder, with a two +2 damage mod and a -1 to crit rating mod, a price of on par with what Scalding posted for his take on a baseline synthetic crystal.

After all, most lightsabers that are built during the Rebellion Era generally aren't going to have access to specialized crystals such as those from Ilum, so PCs looking to build their own lightsaber are going to have to make due with less-than-perfect methods. Luke was lucky in that his mentor left him a detailed text on the ins-and-outs of creating an artificial crystal that could perform just as well as an Ilum crystal, but the PCs generally won't be so fortunate. And if they are, then the GM can simply use the modified Ilum Crystal stats that I suggested and call it a "perfect synthetic crystal."

If that was intended to be a response to me, I'm pretty sure it didn't have anything to do with I suggested but maybe I'm missing something.

If that was intended to be a response to me, I'm pretty sure it didn't have anything to do with I suggested but maybe I'm missing something.

No, that was just a general observation, not to anyone in particular.

Fair enough.

I think the core problem with modifying lightsaber crystals comes down to the "default" focusing crystal, the Ilum Crystal, simply having far too many modifications. Most other attachments that have modification options cap out at much less, generally between 2 to 4.

I suggested this elsewhere, but elevate the Ilum Crystal to be something more rare/uncommon and thus have a higher starting value (Damage 7. Crit 1, Breach 1/Sunder/Vicious 1, leaving 3 +1 damage mods and a single +1 Vicious mod) and substitute a synthetic crystal that's roughly on par with the Athiss Cave crystal that's listed at the end of Lost Knowledge as the "default" focusing crystal. Give it a base value of Damage 6, Crit 3, Breach 1/Sunder, with a two +2 damage mod and a -1 to crit rating mod, a price of on par with what Scalding posted for his take on a baseline synthetic crystal.

I would go with something like this:

Synthetic Crystal (Basic Saber)

Damage 6, Critical 3, Breach 1, Sunder

Mods: 2 Damage +1, 1 Critical, 1 Vicious

Ilum Crystal

Damage 8, Critical 2, Breach 1, Vicious 1, Sunder

Mods: 2 Damage +1, 1 Critical, 1 Vicious

So a fully-modded synthetic crystal = a basic Ilum crystal, and a fully-modded Ilum = the "base" EotE/AoR saber. This brings the number of mods down for each to something reasonable. It also gives the PC a reason to seek out a new crystal for their "basic" saber, rather than just a plan for gaming the broken mod system -- they might seek out something other than an Ilum crystal while they're at it...

Personally, I think it's a mistake to assume that synthetic crystals are inferior by design, and instead I would re-label you synthetic crystal as a generic kyber crystal.

This way, there is no "synthetic" crystal baseline, but instead it is up to GM's to determine which stats a particular synthetic crystal would have.

Example; GM wants to reward players with a story award, so he allows them to find a scroll detailing the formation of a synthetic crystal using special meditation techniques. this crystal could be functionally identical to the Lorrdiran crystal, but instead of finding it, the players must make it.

Of course, I would assume the average synthetic crystal would be inferior even to a generic Kyber, but that depends on how well a character does at making it. I think the above puts more options in the hands of the GM without adding more "rules."

Personally, I think it's a mistake to assume that synthetic crystals are inferior by design, and instead I would re-label you synthetic crystal as a generic kyber crystal.

Fine with that.

Not that d20 should be our guiding star, but I vaguely remember that one of the MANY d20 source splats had creation rules for synthetic crystals, and they started at -2 or even -3, ranging to either a 0 or +1 mod. each step in quality was a harder craft DC.

What was also written in that source was that the best synthetic crystals can't ever match the best natural crystals. so there is definitely a precedent for synthetic crystals being weaker, despite what Darth Bane* thinks.

*Source: Book of the Sith.

Well, as I said from the get-go, I'm happy with synthetic/natural being purely fluff.

To reiterate for the Devs and anyone else: the point is that during the course of this discussion, it became obvious that part of the problem is that the default saber starts with the last, best crystal you'll ever need -- it just needs a ton of crystal polish.

By having the default saber start instead with a generic crystal of limited (yet still formidable) potential, we solve two problems at once: the issue of crystal modding and giving a reason for players to seek out other crystals.

I kinda like the idea of someone making a synthetic Crystal with a Hard Lore or Education check with an automatic single upgrade in difficulty.

Lets say the character must acquire proper elements to make the crystal (call it 1,000 credits worth) and have a proper forge to heat the elements and form the crystal (Another 1,500-2,000). Forming the crystal requires a Hard Resilience check because EU tells us synthetic crystals is an exhausting process that takes a couple days as you concentrate with the Force to properly form the crystal to the specifications needed to focus a Lightsaber blade. Advantage, Triumphs, Threats, and Despair on the Resilience check can affect the Lore/Education check made to form the crystal, as normal.

Success; you get a lightsaber crystal with the same base stats as an Ilum crystal except there are no Mods available
Success with Three Advantage (or a Triumph); you can choose one Mod from the Ilum crystal mods list for every three Advantage and/or single Triumph (you don't GET the mod when the crystal forms, only that the crystal has the Mod available for later modification)
Success with Two Triumphs: your synthetic crystal has the same qualities as a natural Ilum crystal (all Ilum mods available)
Success with Two Threat: Your crystal is flawed; +1 to Crit rating
Success with Despair: Your crystal is flawed; -1 damage
EDIT: or the flaw is that a Despair rolled during a Lightsaber combat check can be spent to cause the lightsaber to shut down until repaired. Touches on that particular weakness that's mentioned in the EU.
Failure with Despair: Your crystal explodes; lose all consumable materials (elements).

Hmmm...maybe increase the cost of one of those (elements or forge) to make it a bit harder for starting characters to accomplish. Maybe 5,000 total (split however needed) is a better figure.

Now, what about this whole "the Sith did this frequently" and "Jedi discouraged this technique and only used it in dire circumstances" fluff we have. Well, let's make the formation of this crystal cause some Conflict. You're using the Force to force the crystal to form in a very specific way, a way you mandate, and not the way nature would go. Doing so imposes your will in a very direct and somewhat aggressive manner in nature and the Force, so someone making a synthetic crystal earns 5 Conflict. Not a drop in the bucket, but also not as bad as out and out murder or torture.

I think a Jedi like Luke or Corran would do this in the circumstances they were in when they made their crystals, while Maul wouldn't bat an eye to make his crystals for his saberstaff in this manner.

Just a thought.

DarthGM,

That's not a bad idea. The only part I don't agree with is having forming a synthetic crystal automatically result in Conflict. The Sith used that method vs. naturally occurring crystals for two reasons. First is that it demonstrates their mastery over the Force, a stark contrast to the Jedi mindset of being "in tune" with the Force; it's akin to the difference between eating heavily processed foods or sticking with organic/natural foods; in the end they both do the same thing (provide nutrients and sustenance to the consumer), but ultimately the difference is more philosophical (and fiscal) than anything. The second is that most of the reliable sources for kyber crystals were known to the Jedi, so trying to mine those might draw attention to the Sith before they were ready to step out of the shadows and enact their revenge.

Thebearisdriving,

That would probably be the Jedi Academy Training Manual sourcebook for Saga Edition. Frankly, that was one portion of the book I never made use of, as I disagreed with the idea of having so many variant crystal types where the bonus provided was of minimal difference, particularly as most folks wound up sticking with the "+1 bonus to attack rolls" versions anyway given how much more useful a bonus to hit was in that system vs. any other kind of bonus or variant damage type. The base synthetic crystal had the same stats in SWSE as an Ilum crystal, with both providing a flat +1 bonus to attack rolls. There was the unstable crysta (extra die of damage on a critical hit, but deactivated on a natural 1) and the compressed crystal (increased the difficulty of Block attempts).

Meh, I like the Conflict cost.

I'm being won over by the difference between natural and synthetic crystals being fluff argument. I think I'd probably say that the the players have to pay the cost of an Ilum crystal for the materials required, but at the end of the process they have a working synthetic crystal. I would say that at least one part (maybe the furnace or the stuff that will actually become a crystal) falls under Restricted and requires a quest to get or something.

I spent a good, long time contemplating this when AoR came out and drafted some preliminary notes to present to my GM once I was ready to cross that line (also use myself as GM if I ever ran for a Force user). The approach was similar to DarthGM's approach, although I built in a few minor and passive check and some Force power uses as well.

I don't have my notes handy, but this is what it looked like. First, a Lore or Education check would need to be made, or the character would need some kind of instruction on the whole process. Next is materials. The special furnace/compressor and base materials are quite common but would be fairly costly since we are talking about small scale industrial processing here. Further, buying a pinch of this chemical and a touch of that would be out of the question. Any industrial chemicals dealer would only be selling in large quantities, meaning some serious credits up front (between the furnace and the materials, this would be roughly equivalent to the cost of a crystal). From here, the Force user would need to utilize the Move power (with certain upgrades) and perhaps Foresee to gain insight in how to shape the crystal's growth. Lastly is a trivial Mechanics roll or a passive check to make the saber itself. Given enough time, it's going to happen. The checks and powers are there to provide a framework for when and how to start, rather than providing a quick fix. If you need a saber in short order, start flashing some credits around and buy one - it's going to be a lot faster and more straight forward, if harder and riskier.

Basically, the difficulty of rolls required and the costs would be roughly the same as the purchase of a crystal on the black market. While the parts are easy enough to come by, the bulk quantities and red flags of purchasing them add to the difficulty of acquisition. Everything comes in a little easier to roll and buy than a normal Ilum crystal, but not vastly so (and hey, easier is kind of the point when making a synth crystal, isn't it)? There's a few more checks (though some can be passive), but the difficulty is a touch easier given the complexity of navigating the process.

Mechanics wise, I really wouldn't differ from RAW, nor did I bother deciding on advantages, threats, or the like. The result is the same lightsaber that was in the previous books, and F&D doesn't really change that in a fundamental way. The only exception here would be the default red color, which I'd allow the player to change with an advantage or two on the Discipline check when shaping the crystal. Aside from that, we have the rules for lightsabers already. I really don't see why synth crystals need to differ.