So I put the question to Sam as well, here is what I wrote:
I'd just like to say I consider that a terrible summation of the "no manoeuvre" argument.
Dual wielding blaster pistols.
So I put the question to Sam as well, here is what I wrote:
I'd just like to say I consider that a terrible summation of the "no manoeuvre" argument.
I don't think I'm missing anything, I mean that is as far as I can tell the gist of your argument.
Edit: I did link to this thread so he can read the exchange himself and see if I missed something.
Edited by FuriousGregI
I don't think I'm missing anything, I mean that is as far as I can tell the gist of your argument.So I put the question to Sam as well, here is what I wrote:
I'd just like to say I consider that a terrible summation of the "no manoeuvre" argument.
Edit: I did link to this thread so he can read the exchange himself and see if I missed something.
The gist is this:
-the draw manuever specifically states it is not applicable to all weapons.
-the wrist mounted blaster is not holstered and is constantly placed in the same area its fired from, just like a gun held in hand neednt be drawn
-the description (which is fluff) is the ONLY defining text jn the CRB or any expansion book that may adress this ambiguousness
I just don't get how people can uphold the "all weapns require a draw manuever" argument when the rules (not just the fluff) say the exact opposite
its really not the gist though.
The gist is this:-the draw manuever specifically states it is not applicable to all weapons.
-the wrist mounted blaster is not holstered and is constantly placed in the same area its fired from, just like a gun held in hand neednt be drawn
-the description (which is fluff) is the ONLY defining text jn the CRB or any expansion book that may adress this ambiguousness
I just don't get how people can uphold the "all weapns require a draw manuever" argument when the rules (not just the fluff) say the exact opposite
Because there is a "Draw" Maneuver and a Talent, and a Mod that emulates that Talent, to allow you to forgo it. Why have a Talent and a Mod if to alter a rule if no such rule exists?
Because there is a "Draw" Maneuver and a Talent, and a Mod that emulates that Talent, to allow you to forgo it. Why have a Talent and a Mod if to alter a rule if no such rule exists?its really not the gist though.
The gist is this:
-the draw manuever specifically states it is not applicable to all weapons.
-the wrist mounted blaster is not holstered and is constantly placed in the same area its fired from, just like a gun held in hand neednt be drawn
-the description (which is fluff) is the ONLY defining text jn the CRB or any expansion book that may adress this ambiguousness
I just don't get how people can uphold the "all weapns require a draw manuever" argument when the rules (not just the fluff) say the exact opposite
Also it's no more ignoring that than holding your weapon when you know troubles coming is. Not only that there's a heafty 2hp cost for allowing this to occur and even then it only applies while you're wearing the mounts, something many places probably won't be ok with or at least will give you setback dice on social checks.
In short its not treating the draw manuever like it doesn't exist it is simply a single situation that doesn't fall under the draw manuever just like activly holding your weapon doesn't. If someone's going to reply to that (as has been done) that the player still needs to, at some point, put the weapon in their hand that equivalent would be when the mounts are attached in the morning and if the safety switch argument is going to be used then one need wonder why that's any more time consuming than switching from stun to normal damage (an incidental in RAW), why the description completely and utterly defies that, and why every other weapon is exempt from that if you draw it normally as if having it on your wrist doesn't speed up use at all.
Edited by Dark Bunny LordThat is a really good point.
what to those who want to require a draw maneuver is the benefit of a wrist mount? Why spend the 2 hard points on it if it is no better than a holstered pistol? By your thinking the reasoning in the fluff is irrelevant.
That is a really good point.
what to those who want to require a draw maneuver is the benefit of a wrist mount? Why spend the 2 hard points on it if it is no better than a holstered pistol? By your thinking the reasoning in the fluff is irrelevant.
Its not altering it at all, do or do not the draw rules explicltly state they only apply to most weapons? Does the word most mean all?Because there is a "Draw" Maneuver and a Talent, and a Mod that emulates that Talent, to allow you to forgo it. Why have a Talent and a Mod if to alter a rule if no such rule exists?its really not the gist though.
The gist is this:
-the draw manuever specifically states it is not applicable to all weapons.
-the wrist mounted blaster is not holstered and is constantly placed in the same area its fired from, just like a gun held in hand neednt be drawn
-the description (which is fluff) is the ONLY defining text jn the CRB or any expansion book that may adress this ambiguousness
I just don't get how people can uphold the "all weapns require a draw manuever" argument when the rules (not just the fluff) say the exact opposite
Also it's no more ignoring that than holding your weapon when you know troubles coming is. Not only that there's a heafty 2hp cost for allowing this to occur and even then it only applies while you're wearing the mounts, something many places probably won't be ok with or at least will give you setback dice on social checks.
In short its not treating the draw manuever like it doesn't exist it is simply a single situation that doesn't fall under the draw manuever just like activly holding your weapon doesn't. If someone's going to reply to that (as has been done) that the player still needs to, at some point, put the weapon in their hand that equivalent would be when the mounts are attached in the morning and if the safety switch argument is going to be used then one need wonder why that's any more time consuming than switching from stun to normal damage (an incidental in RAW), why the description completely and utterly defies that, and why every other weapon is exempt from that if you draw it normally as if having it on your wrist doesn't speed up use at all.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Because there is a "Draw" Maneuver and a Talent, and a Mod that emulates that Talent, to allow you to forgo it. Why have a Talent and a Mod if to alter a rule if no such rule exists?its really not the gist though.
The gist is this:
-the draw manuever specifically states it is not applicable to all weapons.
-the wrist mounted blaster is not holstered and is constantly placed in the same area its fired from, just like a gun held in hand neednt be drawn
-the description (which is fluff) is the ONLY defining text jn the CRB or any expansion book that may adress this ambiguousness
I just don't get how people can uphold the "all weapns require a draw manuever" argument when the rules (not just the fluff) say the exact opposite
Yes, we are aware that you disagree with the argument. The point made was that you submitted a poor representation of what we've been saying to the developers whilst sending a big old 'but surely it should be this, right?' for your position.
Edited by knasserIITL:DR RAW interpretations of never spending a maneuver to ready a wrist mounted weapon and spending a maneuver when the weapon is first put on are practically identical. Where the two sides differ is if it’s ok for a character to have a weapon on and ready to fire at all times. Some think that the weapon cannot accidently fire, due to safeties or other reasons. I feel that there are dangers at having a weapon ready to fire at all times and a GM demonstrate this with the Despair rules to accidently fire the weapon. If the weapon is made to be not ready for safety (or other reasons) then a “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” maneuver would needed to ready the weapon to fire again.
-----------------
This conversation is going around in circles and the same points are being brought up again and again. To me, it seems that we have fundamental differences in how RAW and RAI are viewed. The key difference being as to if the weapon should ever need to be made not ready to use and what it would take to ready the weapon afterwards. This post will summarize my position on the topic and then I’ll bow out of this conversation until the rules questions come back with answers. I wish everyone happy gaming and thank you for the conversation and debate. 
AOR 215
Draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon. This maneuver covers the basic manipulations of most weapons, such as drawing a vibroknife from its sheath, recharging a blaster rifle's energy cells (provided the character has additional ammo at hand - see page 197), or drawing and prepping a thermal detonator for use.
DC 52
Corellian Arms model 2 wrist mount
Originally developed to allow species without opposable thumbs to use pistols, a wrist mount ensures that the user always has a weapon ready while keeping his hands free. Many users choose wrist mounts as a way to pack further firepower, while it is simply an aesthetic choice for some. Wrist-mounted weapons can be fired with a pressure-sensitive palm trigger, a particular wrist motion, or even by neural link. This attachment can be applied to any Ranged (Light) weapon.
Base Modifiers: The weapon can be worn on the user's wrist, allowing him to use his hands without interference.
Modification Options: None.
Hard points Required: 2
Cost: 275 credits.
Looking at the “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” rules above, I believe that a weapon must have a maneuver spent to complete basic manipulations to allow the weapon to be used. The “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” maneuver can be ignored if a weapon has rules to ignore the maneuver expenditure, such as providing the Quick Draw talent. The wrist mount attachment Base Modifiers only refer to not needing hands to use the weapon, which allows the hands to be used for things other than holding a weapon. I believe that a “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” maneuver must be spent to ready a wrist mounted blaster for use.
Below are points brought up in this thread with my response to each point.
1. The description states “a wrist mount ensures that the user always has a weapon ready while keeping his hands free.” If a weapon is always ready as per the description, then you don’t need to spend a “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” maneuver to ready the weapon.
1 Response: An attachment description is not game rules. Think of the description as what the salesman says to get you to buy the item. They are going to exaggerate how the item behaves. A GM can modify how an item’s rules based upon the description, but that would be a house rule. The Base Modifiers for the wrist mount don’t give the Quick Draw talent, or any other rules to ignore the “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” rules, so a maneuver must be spent to use the item.
The reference as to the weapon being always ready means that the user has easy access to the weapon. The user doesn’t have to dig through a backpack or go back to the car to get it because it’s strapped to the wrist. It also means that the maneuver to “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” could’ve been done long before combat started. Possibly as early as when the wrist mounted weapon was put on.
2. As per the rules, most weapons follow the “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” rules. Most doesn’t mean all. It is obvious by reading the description that the wrist mounted blaster was intended to be one of the ones that doesn’t require the maneuver to ready the weapon.
2 Response: The wrist mount Base Modification rules don’t state that the “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” rules are ignored, so a maneuver must be spent to ready a weapon. However, a GM can house rule that the wrist mounted blaster is not part of “most weapons”.
3. The wrist mount weapon attachment costs two hard points. This is an expensive cost for only allowing the weapon to be hands free. For this cost, it is obvious that the weapon is intended to always be ready with never needing a maneuver to be spent.
3 Response: You will get no argument out of me that two hard points is expensive for this attachment. However, the Base Modification rules only state that the weapon can be used while having free hands. Any other benefit would be a house rule.
An option would be to house rule the wrist mount attachment some modifications. Modifications could provide Quick Draw (or some rule to ignore the “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” rules). A modification to make it look less like a gun, providing a black die to people observing and trying to identify the wrist mount, could be cool as well.
4. The wrist mount weapon is always active (through reading the description as rules or spending a maneuver to ready the weapon in the morning) so I can go about my day and if I ever wind up in combat I can freely fire my wrist mounted weapon without having to spend a maneuver.
4 Response: Correct. If you want to have an active weapon at the ready all day long there is nothing preventing you from doing so. However, this is where I’d advocate the use of Despair to show accidents that can happen while walking around with a weapon ready to be fired. This is where I dip into house rules. There is nothing in the rule books for spending Despair in this fashion. However, I believe that a character who always has a weapon ready to be used provides an unique opportunity for interesting Despair usage. It is up to each individual GM to determine if Despair could be spent in this fashion.
This is how I’d advocate Despair usage. When a character has a readied weapon (such as wrist mounted blasters, shock gloves, or holding a gun) for extended periods of time outside of combat situations the roll of a Despair in any check could cause the weapon to fire. I wouldn’t recommend having this happen too often. Perhaps even limit it to when two Despair are rolled at the same time. Using Despair in this way could allow for a scene like when Marvin was shot in the car in Pulp Fiction.
5. Why would the weapon accidently go off? The description says that I can control the wrist mount with my mind with a neural interface. There is no way that I’d accidently trigger the weapon or the manufacturer would have safeties built in that would prevent accidental firing of the weapon.
5 Response: A neural interface is one of three ways that the weapon could be designed to be triggered to fire. Not all wrist mounted weapons have a neural interface. Also, even if a weapon has a neural interface, who’s to say what it takes to trigger? We are discussing fictional technology which could function in any number of ways that could be dreamt up. The only rules that a wrist mounted blaster grants is the ability to hold a blaster while having free hands. Any other benefits would be a house rule.
A GM is free to rule that a weapon will never accidently fire. Spending Despair to accidently fire a weapon would be a house rule. I feel that allowing Despair to accidently fire a ready weapon would be the type of fun, interesting, or unique Despair result that would keep the game fresh and interesting that seems to be advocated for on this forum. It is always strongly recommended to think outside the box on what Advantages, Threat, Triumph, and Despair could do.
6. If it’s just a safety that needs to be switched, then it should just be an incidental to flip that switch just like turning on Stun damage. After all, a round is a minute and a maneuver is a large investment of that minute. Much too long for simply flipping a switch.
6 Response: Turning on and off Stun for blasters is a defined game rule specific to Stun settings. Making a weapon ready to fire is also a defined game rule, which takes a maneuver. If you want to make a weapon ready to fire you must spend a maneuver to ready the weapon. (I’ll agree that logically it could be quicker than this, but that’s how the game rules are written.)
7. If my GM will never spend Despair on having a ready weapon accidently fire, and my wrist mounted blaster is always ready (through spending a maneuver early in the day or because the weapon is always ready), then why should this matter?
7 Response: Really, the question is academic. Both sides of the discussion can live in happy harmony together. Never spending a maneuver to ready a wrist mounted weapon and spending a maneuver when the weapon is first put on are practically the same thing. If bad things will never accidently happen while walking around with a weapon ready to fire, then the two sides are practically identical.
That being said, I believe there are social concerns to think about with a wrist mounted weapon which could necessitate the weapon being made ready or not ready to use. Could the weapon accidently go off, as discussed above? Can someone looking at a wrist mounted weapon tell if it is ready to use or not? How do people, such as criminals, deal with someone who has a wrist mounted blaster? Do they behave differently if it’s always on or if it isn’t ready to be used? These are reasons why a character might not want their weapon to be always ready to be used.
If a wrist mounted weapon is made to be not ready, because the narrative dictates that having a loaded weapon at ready to be used is bad, then how can it become made ready to use again? It can be made ready to use by using a “draw, holster, ready, or load a weapon” maneuver.
Summary:
A maneuver must be spent to ready a wrist mounted blaster to be fired. This maneuver could be done when the weapon is first put on. It is up to the GM as to if there is ever a need to make the weapon not ready to use, such as if there are dangers for walking around with a weapon ready to fire at all times.
Happy gaming.
Instead, lets look at the OTHER wrist mounted weapon example:
"Stowed"
"Drawn"
Discuss
Not "Wrist Mounted", built into the Droid. We have no idea what the builder required, perhaps "Stowing" was an important feature for that model.Instead, lets look at the OTHER wrist mounted weapon example:
"Stowed"
"Drawn"
Discuss
I actually think these are examples of a weapon built into an arm not attached to it so I don't think it applies. Regardless I believe a cybernetic arm with a built in weapon (I'm away from my book) still requires a Draw Maneuver to get it out of the arm and ready to fire.
@Jamwes
A house rule would suggest a rule is being added, no rule is being added because the draw/holster/ready rules very clearly state that not all weapons must be readied. The only distinction given as to whether or not the weapon should be drawn (ie the RAI) would be it's description. Taking the version your side has given not only should we assume that the description is a complete and utter lie (and I don't buy the salesmen pitch here because the description is not what a merchant is telling you it's a breif synopsis of the weapon for the players to grasp it), but then you are also applying a rule that you are leaving exempt to every other item in the game.
Ie you are saying a ready action is required to prepare a weapon effectively already held in your hand (since it's fired from the exact position it starts in).
Also I wish you guys would stop using the quick draw excuse, quick draw state it's ONLY covers drawing and holstering not readying. Ergo if all weapons must be readied as you state then all weapons need to be drawn and then an aditional manuever needs to be spent to ready it. Seriously, go read the talent. I highly doubt anyone is going to say "ok youv'e quick drawn your pistol out of it's holster, now spend a manuever to switch the safety off". No one on the opposing side has bothered to respond to this point despite it being made repeatedly.
Also side note the side against you is not saying having a weapon off ready is not dangerous, that little spat was over wether actions as simple as shacking hands or lightly moving would cause the thing to go off like a guy with premature ejaculation (pardon my crudeness just getting a little tired of being misrepresented). His argument was that "because" it was unsafe that we shouldn't allow it as such.
Okay...here's the answer! (got the okay to post it on the forums)
Hello Josiah,
Your character does count as having the weapon out and ready if it's worn on his wrist, unless other circumstances (such as wearing a spacesuit over it!) would make this impractical.Hope this helps,Sam StewartSenior RPG ProducerFantasy Flight Games
Done and doner. Nice, simple, and common-sense IMO.
I sent in this question:
Dangerous Covenants page 52 has the highly useful Corellian Arms Model 2 Wrist Mount attachment.My question is this: when a blaster with this attachment is worn on a being's wrist, does the character consider the weapon to be "drawn?" More to the point, must the character take a maneuver to "ready" the wrist-blaster, or is it just always ready to be used once it's mounted on your wrist?The description would seem to indicate that it is always "ready," but some are taking issue with the fact that this effect is not spelled out specifically in the "Base Modifiers" section.Thanks very much!
Okay...here's the answer! (got the okay to post it on the forums)
Hello Josiah,
Your character does count as having the weapon out and ready if it's worn on his wrist, unless other circumstances (such as wearing a spacesuit over it!) would make this impractical.Hope this helps,Sam StewartSenior RPG ProducerFantasy Flight Games
Done and doner. Nice, simple, and common-sense IMO.
Awesome. Thanks for taking the time to ask and post it here. As one of the main people who were arguing against this ruling, I approve of the question asked. While I may have some internal grumblings that this doesn't match up to how I read the RAW, I'll agree that this can be viewed as a common-sense RAI answer and works within the Star Wars universe.
In fact, I think that reasoning is good enough for Shock Gloves to always be considered ready to use as well. It seems that the intention is for weapons to be easy to use and "real world accidents" don't happen in Star Wars. What do you think?
If anything, I wish the term "Ready" was more defined. The example seems to be that it's for reloading a gun, which reloading weapons have their own unique rules so I'm not sure why it's mentioned there. I also use Ready for having my players turn on a weapon turret on a starship that's just powering on while in a hanger. Other than that, I'm not sure what else ready could be used for. That's a discussion that can wait for the next time a published weapon seems to need a Ready maneuver to use.
Well seeing as how there appears to be no OSHA in Star Wars...handrails are optional. So no real world accidents probably don't happen. You don't fall off bridges..you are shot or pushed.
Edited by DaeglanIt's not that they don't happen, it's that they're just not common. Again I don't think anyone was arguing that having your weapons always at the ready was dangerous, just that it wasn't so dangerous that they weren't going to go off with slight bumps but would require something significant. The point was that even if they did go off accidentally that really said nothing abut them being able to be ready, in fact I think it's reasonable that if you just want to say there's a safety that's fine but that it takes pretty much no time to switch off just like switching stun to normal damage since both would be a simple flick of a switch and nothing more.
Also I think your players would think it was kinda cheap if every despair they rolled just constantly had their guns accidentally firing, not everything has a hair trigger after all, some guns are very difficult to "accidentally" fire if you don't have your finger on the trigger (or it's equivalent). I mean if you have your wrist mount programed to something like the vulcan symbol or spidermans web shooter gesture those are just simply not going to happen in normal every day life with all but the most extreme screw ups.
The point was that even if they did go off accidentally that really said nothing abut them being able to be ready, in fact I think it's reasonable that if you just want to say there's a safety that's fine but that it takes pretty much no time to switch off just like switching stun to normal damage since both would be a simple flick of a switch and nothing more.
I was thinking of going for the incidental idea that was floated. Make it the same as turning on and off stun mode.
Also I think your players would think it was kinda cheap if every despair they rolled just constantly had their guns accidentally firing, not everything has a hair trigger after all, some guns are very difficult to "accidentally" fire if you don't have your finger on the trigger (or it's equivalent).
Agreed. Every time was never my intention. Just when it would fit the story the best and Dispair presented itself.
Besides, given the opportunity, the despair wont activate your wrist mounted weapon. It'll activate your jetpack to send you flying into the sarlacc.
I got the same answer from Sam. I did mention that he has said in the past not to make rules judgements from the Fluff but to look at the actual rule and that his answer was inconsistent with that, but so it goes.
I got the same answer from Sam. I did mention that he has said in the past not to make rules judgements from the Fluff but to look at the actual rule and that his answer was inconsistent with that, but so it goes.
The rules effect says that the weapon is "mounted on the wrist," so it is in the actual rule.
I got the same answer from Sam. I did mention that he has said in the past not to make rules judgements from the Fluff but to look at the actual rule and that his answer was inconsistent with that, but so it goes.
The rules effect says that the weapon is "mounted on the wrist," so it is in the actual rule.
Really!? Thank the Maker you're here to tell us all what no one else has mentioned in the last 9 pages of comments. If only you were here earlier, the time we would have saved... 
His rule isn't inconsistent with the RAW though. As has been explained the draw manuever rule doesn't state it applies to all weapons, only some. The only counter to this was that the ready portion of the rule would apply, however this was countered (and never adressed) that normal holstered weapons were only spending one manuever to unholster and then where ready to fire and didn't need to apply a ready manuever as was being insisted as what needed to be done for the wrist mount.
Ergo nothing in the RAW contradicts the ruling in that you need only one manuever to prep a holstered weapon and not another to ready it so that can't really be an excuse if we're treating all weapns the same. Not only that but QuickDraw wouldn't have solved the situation since it only covers unholstering and holstering, not readying which would indicate that if we went with the "it needs to be readied" argument you'd need two manuevers to prep any weapon before it could be fired or one if you posessed quick draw.
Edited by Dark Bunny LordHis rule isn't inconsistent with the RAW though. As has been explained the draw manuever rule doesn't state it applies to all weapons, only some. The only counter to this was that the ready portion of the rule would apply, however this was countered (and never adressed) that normal holstered weapons were only spending one manuever to unholster and then where ready to fire and didn't need to apply a ready manuever as was being insisted as what needed to be done for the wrist mount.
Ergo nothing in the RAW contradicts the ruling in that you need only one manuever to prep a holstered weapon and not another to ready it so that can't really be an excuse if we're treating all weapns the same. Not only that but QuickDraw wouldn't have solved the situation since it only covers unholstering and holstering, not readying which would indicate that if we went with the "it needs to be readied" argument you'd need two manuevers to prep any weapon before it could be fired or one if you posessed quick draw.
You and I should probably just work out some sort of rota for this and the other thread.
... a ready manuever...