This is what I love about this system you can really do most anything you want without bending or breaking the RAW.

Except in this case I'd ignore the RAW and treat the Wrist Mounts as always drawn, since effectively that's what they are , whereas with your RAW a PC still has to use a Maneuver to draw a second Wrist Mounted weapon or even a hand held weapon (Quick Draw only works once per round).

This is what I love about this system you can really do most anything you want without bending or breaking the RAW.

Except in this case I'd ignore the RAW and treat the Wrist Mounts as always drawn, since effectively that's what they are , whereas with your RAW a PC still has to use a Maneuver to draw a second Wrist Mounted weapon or even a hand held weapon (Quick Draw only works once per round).

Again, I see what you mean however you aren't just ignoring the RAW you're breaking it. By handwaving the RAW you aren't just giving the PC an ability they actually haven't paid for you're also allowing them a free Hard Point on each of the Blasters to further Mod them with. Additionally you're breaking the RAW by effectively allowing Quick Draw to function twice a good as is currently allowed.

This is too good for the price (2 HPs & 275cr). In my example the PC will still get the Quick Draw but at a cost of 1 HP per Blaster, 2 Mod Rolls, and 50cr or a total of 4 HPs, 2 Rolls & 325cr. Which I think is a much fairer exchange to get two Quick Drawn Blasters, but to get this and have two extra Hard Points to Mod all for merely buying Wrist Mounts is just too much. I've conceded that with my interpretation you'd still be breaking the RAW by allowing the second QD, but in this case you are paying a premium to do it.

Again, I see what you mean however you aren't just ignoring the RAW you're breaking it.

Actually, I'm not. The weapons are effectively always drawn.

If you insist on your Players having to do so it's simple enough for the Player to state they are "drawing the weapon" at the start of every encounter as they don't need to use them and their hands are free.

All you doing is charging the PC more money, more HPs, and making their ranged attacks beyond Short worse.

Also the cost is 1000C, takes 2 HP in the Armor and 1 in the weapon. In what way is this "too good for the price"?

EDIT: Full stats since machineblade1 got them incorrect:

-- Fluff Cut--

A weapon must also be modified in order to be armor-mounted, requiring one hard point. This attachment can mount any Ranged (Light) or Ranged (Heavy) weapon with an Encumbrance of 4 or less, subject to GM's discretion.

Base Modifiers : Mounts a single weapon on the armor, allowing the wearer to aim and fire it without using his hands or arms.

Modification Options : None.

Hard points Required : 2

Cost : 1,000 Credits

Actually, I'm not. The weapons are effectively always drawn.

If you insist on your Players having to do so it's simple enough for the Player to state they are "drawing the weapon" at the start of every encounter as they don't need to use them and their hands are free.

So, the way I would be inclined to do it is that wrist mounted blasters are a lot like the wrist mounted derringers found in the movie " The Sheriff of Fractured Jaw ". The primary difference being that you don’t necessarily have to be holding the wrist-mounted blasters in your hands in order to be able to fire them.

In other words, they’re normally hidden with the weapon on safety, until such time as they are needed. And if you don’t have some sort of a "Quick Draw" attachment for them, then it takes a round to ready them — just like any other non-Quick Draw weapon.

If you’re going to disassemble the blaster and mount just the workings of the blaster to your wrists, then you’d wind up with a barrel sticking out, and that would either be real obvious (like carrying a gun in your hand at all times), or you would still need a round to get it ready for operations — unless it had a special Quick Draw attachment.

See http://www.pinterest.com/pin/350225308495326668/ and http://technabob.com/blog/2011/09/19/batman-arkham-city-deadshot/ for a couple of examples I found of this latter type.

In either event, you would still need to find some way to protect yourself from the weapon when it was being fired, unless it was a standard blaster that was on a spring-loaded attachment whose sole purpose was to put it into your hand when activated.

I've had my differences with Evileeyore on another thread regarding rules before but here I gotta agree with him, he's right. It doesn't say you get QuickDraw because it doesn't have to, it says the weapons are already at the ready, Ie drawn. It's not a hand waving RAW thing any more than saying a player holding his gun down in hand needs to spend a maneuver to draw the weapon because the weapon is already at the ready and effectively out of its holster and in hand. The drawback to this of course would be that others would see you walking around with, what is effectively, a loaded and drawn weapon.

I've had my differences with Evileeyore on another thread regarding rules before but here I gotta agree with him, he's right. It doesn't say you get QuickDraw because it doesn't have to, it says the weapons are already at the ready, Ie drawn. It's not a hand waving RAW thing any more than saying a player holding his gun down in hand needs to spend a maneuver to draw the weapon because the weapon is already at the ready and effectively out of its holster and in hand. The drawback to this of course would be that others would see you walking around with, what is effectively, a loaded and drawn weapon

As for the statement that this might somehow diminish the value of someone who bought the QuickDraw talent it really doesn't at all because this only applies to the weapons it's attached to, not every single weapon you ever come across nor any random item in your backpack or pouch belt you want out which QuickDraw WOULD be able to pull as an incidental.

Evileeyore your quoting the armor mounted weapon from Dangerous Covenants the wrist mounted doesn't require any armor slots but is limited to ranged light. Wrist mounts are found in the weapon mod section. Second column bottom of page 52. The armor mount allows you to mount heavy ranged as you indicated.

Evileeyore your quoting the armor mounted weapon from Dangerous Covenants the wrist mounted doesn't require any armor slots but is limited to ranged light. Wrist mounts are found in the weapon mod section. Second column bottom of page 52. The armor mount allows you to mount heavy ranged as you indicated.

Wait... what?

/rechecks book

That's just whacky.

Yup, sorry machineblade1, I missed this in my reading and caught the more expensive and expansive Armor version.

So, 275C, 2 HP from the weapon, limited to Ranged (Light), no Encumbrance limits.

Yeah this is basically one of the pics bradknowles linked to (I like this one best: Deadshot )

As for the statement that this might somehow diminish the value of someone who bought the QuickDraw talent it really doesn't at all because this only applies to the weapons it's attached to, not every single weapon you ever come across nor any random item in your backpack or pouch belt you want out which QuickDraw WOULD be able to pull as an incidental.

They'd also be able to do so with a weapon with TWO MORE HARD POINTS! Which is pretty significant.

I don't see this contradicts RAW at all. I don't recall anywhere saying weapon use must always be preceded by a Draw manoeuvre. It's just something you may need to do if your weapon isn't ready. The same argument presented here would apply to a Trandoshan's claws. Do they have to Draw those? It doesn't say you don't, after all!

As for the statement that this might somehow diminish the value of someone who bought the QuickDraw talent it really doesn't at all because this only applies to the weapons it's attached to, not every single weapon you ever come across nor any random item in your backpack or pouch belt you want out which QuickDraw WOULD be able to pull as an incidental.

They'd also be able to do so with a weapon with TWO MORE HARD POINTS! Which is pretty significant.I don't see this contradicts RAW at all. I don't recall anywhere saying weapon use must always be preceded by a Draw manoeuvre. It's just something you may need to do if your weapon isn't ready. The same argument presented here would apply to a Trandoshan's claws. Do they have to Draw those? It doesn't say you don't, after all!

Also the 2hp cost gives just having quick draw even more value in that if you have it then you can spend those 2hp on something that makes the weapon better where as the player without said talent can't if they want that ability to not worry about using a maneuver to draw.

No problem. Evileeyore. There's so much new content in the specialization books, it's something I have to digest for months sorta like the Sarlac.

This is what I love about this system you can really do most anything you want without bending or breaking the RAW.

Except in this case I'd ignore the RAW and treat the Wrist Mounts as always drawn, since effectively that's what they are , whereas with your RAW a PC still has to use a Maneuver to draw a second Wrist Mounted weapon or even a hand held weapon (Quick Draw only works once per round).

I can see where you're coming from. It's always on your arm and two hardpoints are expensive. However, at my table I'm going to stick to RAW and require a maneuver to ready the weapon. Which, I'll totally bypass the maneuver if the player thinks to say he turns on the wrist mount before combat actually starts.

For me, the benifit for a wrist mounted weapon is so that you can use your hands for other things and not have to spend maneuvers to swap weapons or put the weapon away. Things the wrist mounted weapon allows you to do: open doors, climb ladders, switch between vibro ax to ranged light, ect

If a player wanted to have his wrist mounts always on and at the ready at my table, I'd randomly have the blaster fire during socal checks with a Dispair. Not every time, but just enough to remind the player why walking around town (while not actively fighting) with a loaded weapon always at the ready is a bad idea.

If a player wanted to have his wrist mounts always on and at the ready at my table, I'd randomly have the blaster fire during socal checks with a Dispair. Not every time, but just enough to remind the player why walking around town (while not actively fighting) with a loaded weapon always at the ready is a bad idea.

Maybe for two despairs on a charm or negotiation check. And better yet a single despair in a coercion check. "Yes your threat of violence triggered your blaster response. There is a brand new wound in the goons head in front of you. Guess you won't be finding out the location of the swoop bike gangs hideout from this one."

@evileeyor

Again I see where you are coming from when reading the descriptions (of either the Wrist Mounts or the other weapon mount) but I still will go by the RAW and only allow for what is actually specifically stated in the mechanics of the Mod. Since neither includes the Innate Ability Quick Draw I'm not going to add it. However, as I mentioned earlier, I will allow a Player to add Quick Draw by applying the Filed Front Sight Mod to the actual weapon they choose to mount and re-skin that Mod as something approprate. This way the Player still gets what they want and I don't have to hand-wave the RAW just because the Fluff implies something the the mechanics don't back up.

However, at my table I'm going to stick to RAW and require a maneuver to ready the weapon.

My question is HOW is this RAW? There's nothing in the book that says you have to perform a Draw manoeuvre in order to use a weapon. There's nothing under the manoeuvre description or under the Combat Check action. I get the attitude of wanting to stick to "RAW", but this is not RAW. Nothing in the book says this is necessary anywhere that I can see.

This is what I love about this system you can really do most anything you want without bending or breaking the RAW.

Except in this case I'd ignore the RAW and treat the Wrist Mounts as always drawn, since effectively that's what they are , whereas with your RAW a PC still has to use a Maneuver to draw a second Wrist Mounted weapon or even a hand held weapon (Quick Draw only works once per round).

I can see where you're coming from. It's always on your arm and two hardpoints are expensive. However, at my table I'm going to stick to RAW and require a maneuver to ready the weapon. Which, I'll totally bypass the maneuver if the player thinks to say he turns on the wrist mount before combat actually starts.

For me, the benifit for a wrist mounted weapon is so that you can use your hands for other things and not have to spend maneuvers to swap weapons or put the weapon away. Things the wrist mounted weapon allows you to do: open doors, climb ladders, switch between vibro ax to ranged light, ect

If a player wanted to have his wrist mounts always on and at the ready at my table, I'd randomly have the blaster fire during socal checks with a Dispair. Not every time, but just enough to remind the player why walking around town (while not actively fighting) with a loaded weapon always at the ready is a bad idea.

It's the status of these weapons and whether they are readied or not that would determine if they need to be drawn that matters here.

@evileeyor

Again I see where you are coming from when reading the descriptions (of either the Wrist Mounts or the other weapon mount) but I still will go by the RAW and only allow for what is actually specifically stated in the mechanics of the Mod. Since neither includes the Innate Ability Quick Draw I'm not going to add it. However, as I mentioned earlier, I will allow a Player to add Quick Draw by applying the Filed Front Sight Mod to the actual weapon they choose to mount and re-skin that Mod as something approprate. This way the Player still gets what they want and I don't have to hand-wave the RAW just because the Fluff implies something the the mechanics don't back up.

the mechanics do back it up though the weapons are never sheathed because they're constantly on your wrists / in hand. No one is arguing mere fluff this is literally the description... I mean what if a player is a Selonian with their natural tail attack do you require them to draw their tail as a manuever? Or a person to draw their fists when the cantina erupts into a bar fight?

However, at my table I'm going to stick to RAW and require a maneuver to ready the weapon.

My question is HOW is this RAW? There's nothing in the book that says you have to perform a Draw manoeuvre in order to use a weapon. There's nothing under the manoeuvre description or under the Combat Check action. I get the attitude of wanting to stick to "RAW", but this is not RAW. Nothing in the book says this is necessary anywhere that I can see.

It's RAW because the rules are written in the positive ie. if it doesn't specifically state that an ability exist, it doesn't. An example would be the one I mentioned earlier: the Filed Front Sight Mod specifically includes the Innate Quick Draw ability, Wrist Mounted Weapons does not include this.

As for why you need to spend a Draw action to ready a weapon in Combat, well that depends on the situation. The assumption is that the PC doesn't wander around with their weapon out and prepared to fire all the time. The "Draw" maneuver is basically what you do to be able to fire, which can mean drawing the weapon from it's holster or activating it's power switch or whatever. It's not important what the actual action is only that you must preform it before you can use it unless you have Quick Draw or you've specifically stated you have your weapon, or other item, out and prepared to use prior to the encounter. Wrist Mounted Weapons and the other Armor Mounted Weapon Mods do not provide this Innate Quick Draw ability, so you are still required to either "Draw" (prepare to fire) if the encounter has already started or state before the encounter that you have done so.

It's RAW because the rules are written in the positive ie. if it doesn't specifically state that an ability exist, it doesn't. An example would be the one I mentioned earlier: the Filed Front Sight Mod specifically includes the Innate Quick Draw ability, Wrist Mounted Weapons does not include this.

As for why you need to spend a Draw action to ready a weapon in Combat, well that depends on the situation. The assumption is that the PC doesn't wander around with their weapon out and prepared to fire all the time. The "Draw" maneuver is basically what you do to be able to fire, which can mean drawing the weapon from it's holster or activating it's power switch or whatever. It's not important what the actual action is only that you must preform it before you can use it unless you have Quick Draw or you've specifically stated you have your weapon, or other item, out and prepared to use prior to the encounter. Wrist Mounted Weapons and the other Armor Mounted Weapon Mods do not provide this Innate Quick Draw ability, so you are still required to either "Draw" (prepare to fire) if the encounter has already started or state before the encounter that you have done so.

And no ones disagreeing with you about whether or not the wrist mounts provide quick draw, they don't. We're arguing "why" you are assuming they even need to be drawn since they're never sheathed to begin with?

A person doesn't need to "draw" their fists and they don't need to "draw" a weapon that's already in their hand. Like I said in another post, a selonians tale does not come with quick draw, neither does a persons fists, yet I don't think anyone would argue that they need to "draw" these because they are not sheathed or in a position where they need to be taken out, they are always at the ready much like the wrist mounted weaponry.

I mean the description litterally says "...a wrist mount ensures that the user always has a weapon ready...", so while it doesn't provide quickdraw by any means it doesn't need to because the weapons already at the ready and needn't be drawn period not even as an incidental.

It's RAW because the rules are written in the positive ie. if it doesn't specifically state that an ability exist, it doesn't. An example would be the one I mentioned earlier: the Filed Front Sight Mod specifically includes the Innate Quick Draw ability, Wrist Mounted Weapons does not include this.

As for why you need to spend a Draw action to ready a weapon in Combat, well that depends on the situation. The assumption is that the PC doesn't wander around with their weapon out and prepared to fire all the time. The "Draw" maneuver is basically what you do to be able to fire, which can mean drawing the weapon from it's holster or activating it's power switch or whatever. It's not important what the actual action is only that you must preform it before you can use it unless you have Quick Draw or you've specifically stated you have your weapon, or other item, out and prepared to use prior to the encounter. Wrist Mounted Weapons and the other Armor Mounted Weapon Mods do not provide this Innate Quick Draw ability, so you are still required to either "Draw" (prepare to fire) if the encounter has already started or state before the encounter that you have done so.

And no ones disagreeing with you about whether or not the wrist mounts provide quick draw, they don't. We're arguing "why" you are assuming they even need to be drawn since they're never sheathed to begin with?

A person doesn't need to "draw" their fists and they don't need to "draw" a weapon that's already in their hand. Like I said in another post, a selonians tale does not come with quick draw, neither does a persons fists, yet I don't think anyone would argue that they need to "draw" these because they are not sheathed or in a position where they need to be taken out, they are always at the ready much like the wrist mounted weaponry.

Because "Draw" is the name of the Action not what the action does as a rule. The rule for "Draw" is that you do something to prepare to fire a weapon or use an item. It can, as I've said, be removing a pistol from a holster or it could be swinging a slung rifle around, or taking a Stimpack out of it's case, or in the case of wrist mounted blaster, activating them in some way so you can fire them, it doesn't matter how you describe it. It's a purely game mechanic and the mechanic to avoid this maneuver cost is Quick Draw, so if it doesn't say it comes with the innate Quick Draw ability then it doesn't and as such doesn't gain the benefit of the ability. Thats all there is to it.

Because "Draw" is the name of the Action not what the action does as a rule. The rule for "Draw" is that you do something to prepare to fire a weapon or use an item.

Because "Draw" is the name of the Action not what the action does as a rule. The rule for "Draw" is that you do something to prepare to fire a weapon or use an item.

So you'd have your PCs Draw their Fists before a Brawl, a Trandoshan his Claws, or a Selonian their Tail?

Nope, because none of your examples are a separate item. Fists aren't an attachment your arm, Claws aren't an attachment to your hand (although I would imagine a character like Wolverine would need to 'Draw" his claws), and a Selonian's tail isn't an attachment to it's body.

Just because you have a blaster attached to your wrist doesn't make it ready to fire, it just means it's attached to your wrist.

However, at my table I'm going to stick to RAW and require a maneuver to ready the weapon.

My question is HOW is this RAW? There's nothing in the book that says you have to perform a Draw manoeuvre in order to use a weapon. There's nothing under the manoeuvre description or under the Combat Check action. I get the attitude of wanting to stick to "RAW", but this is not RAW. Nothing in the book says this is necessary anywhere that I can see.

It's RAW because the rules are written in the positive ie. if it doesn't specifically state that an ability exist, it doesn't. An example would be the one I mentioned earlier: the Filed Front Sight Mod specifically includes the Innate Quick Draw ability, Wrist Mounted Weapons does not include this.

There's the flaw in your reasoning right at the start. You have made a supposition that Quick Draw is the only way to have your weapon at the ready at the start of a combat. This is not given anywhere in the rules and there is no reason to suppose that the only way of achieving this is through the Quick Draw talent any more than to suppose one must use the Utility Belt talent to produce a ration pack rather than having one through planning, or that one must have the Greased Palm talent in order to be allowed to bribe a PC.

Quick Draw allows a PC to draw a weapon as an incidental. Nowhere does it state that this is the only means by which a weapon can be pre-readied, nor does it state anywhere that an attack must be preceded by a Draw manoeuvre. Both of these are your invention and not RAW.

Because "Draw" is the name of the Action not what the action does as a rule. The rule for "Draw" is that you do something to prepare to fire a weapon or use an item.

So you'd have your PCs Draw their Fists before a Brawl, a Trandoshan his Claws, or a Selonian their Tail?

Nope, because none of your examples are a separate item.

Nowhere does it state that whether or not something needs to be "drawn" is dependent on whether it is a separate item or not. Again, this is your supposition. And it is only your assumption that wrist mounted weapons need some special action to prepare them and that this special action has to be more than an incidental. Firing could be any gesture you care to come up with, from spiderman's outer fingers extended, inner fingers to the wrist palms upwards, to snapping your thumb and forefinger to tapping thumb and little finger together twice. All things you're highly unlikely to perform by accident and even if it's possible, that's what despair rolls are for. We're talking about someone who willingly walks around with guns strapped to their arms. And you want to argue what RAW is based on such a person? RAW is one thing and one thing only: Rules As Written. Arguing that you assume a weapon works a certain way and assuming that a Talent is the only way to achieve something are not "Written".

Also, you seem to be in part motivated by thinking this devalues the Quick Draw talent. It doesn't. It's 2 valuable Hard Points and a host of disadvantages (limited weapon options, obviousness of weapon, lose the ability if you lose the weapon and more...).

You're both devaluing a mod and arguing something is RAW when it's not written anywhere nor the only or logical interpretation. It's the latter that I'm really disputing, however.

There's the flaw in your reasoning right at the start. You have made a supposition that Quick Draw is the only way to have your weapon at the ready at the start of a combat. This is not given anywhere in the rules and there is no reason to suppose that the only way of achieving this is through the Quick Draw talent any more than to suppose one must use the Utility Belt talent to produce a ration pack rather than having one through planning, or that one must have the Greased Palm talent in order to be allowed to bribe a PC.

Quick Draw allows a PC to draw a weapon as an incidental. Nowhere does it state that this is the only means by which a weapon can be pre-readied, nor does it state anywhere that an attack must be preceded by a Draw manoeuvre. Both of these are your invention and not RAW.

And I would agree with you except that there is already a precedent in the the RAW and that is the Filed Front Sight Mod that, as I have mentioned earlier, specifically grants this incidental readying of a weapon once the encounter has begun. Neither of the two attachment Mods we are discussing have this ability, it wasn't a mistake they just don't grant this ability. As for what happens before the encounter begins it's not an issue for me, if a Player says prior to the encounter that he has turned on or "drawn" his wrist mounted blasters then I'm good with that, just like I would be good with any Player saying they are readying whatever, but if they don't then they are required to follow the same rules as everyone else.

Edit: fixed a couple spelling errors...

There's the flaw in your reasoning right at the start. You have made a supposition that Quick Draw is the only way to have your weapon at the ready at the start of a combat. This is not given anywhere in the rules and there is no reason to suppose that the only way of achieving this is through the Quick Draw talent any more than to suppose one must use the Utility Belt talent to produce a ration pack rather than having one through planning, or that one must have the Greased Palm talent in order to be allowed to bribe a PC.

Quick Draw allows a PC to draw a weapon as an incidental. Nowhere does it state that this is the only means by which a weapon can be pre-readied, nor does it state anywhere that an attack must be preceded by a Draw manoeuvre. Both of these are your invention and not RAW.

And I would agree with you except that there is already a precedent in the the RAW and that is the Filed Front Sight Mod that, as I have mentioned earlier, specifically grants this incidental readying of a weapon once the encounter has begun. Neither of the two attachment Mods we are discussing have this ability, it wasn't a mistake they just don't grant this ability. As for what happens before the encounter begins it's not an issue for me, if a Player says prior to the encounter that he has turned on or "drawn" his wrist mounted blasters then I'm good with that, just like I would be good with any Player saying they are readying whatever, but if they don't then they are required to follow the same rules as everyone else.

FG, I think the problem here is that you're wanting to apply a rule that doesn't need to be applied in this instance. When I think about what having blasters mounted on wrists might do, I think, "Well that means they're always at the ready, and you've still got a free hand if you want."

It seems to me to be like arguing that you have to spend a maneuver to stand up at the beginning of combat, because the rules don't say anything about starting combat standing up; therefore, you are not standing up until you take a maneuver to do so.

Think about these things, that is the only conclusion I can draw: wrist-mounts mean that your weapon is always good to go.